Help, I Think I Like Jazz! or How To Avoid Being A Douchebag

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Douchebag.

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OTOH, who cares if he catches you listening to The Shape of Jazz To Come? Big deal. Listen to some more jazz. It is okay to like things even though sometimes douchebags like them too.

[walks away dejected]

How do you pronounce UFASJP?

Also, does no one have similar stories of introduction/hesitation to accept jazz? Or recs?

That said, here are five of my favorite albums. They may or may not be your favorite albums, but hey, you can at least pretend to like them so that you'll be as cool as the other douchebags who like jazz:
Alice Coltrane: Ptah the El Daoud
John Coltrane: Africa Brass 1&2
Khalid Yasin (sometimes listed as Larry Young, same guy): Lawrence of Newark
Archie Shepp: Momma Too Tight
Joe McPhee: Nation Time

I tend to like jazz with an African/Psychedelic leaning. Some people don't, some are purists and some like more abstract stuff. I think those are pretty fantastic albums, and ones that I would recommend to pretty much anyone, but it's not a big deal one way or another. But good luck in realizing that you like jazz and that it's not something earth shaking one way or another.

I'm sure there's other music I hesitated to like, but at some point you just have to realize that it's silly to hesitate to like any kind of music that you like.

If you like Shape of Jazz to Come, awesome. That's a great album. You'd probably like Ornette's other albums from the same time period - Change of the Century, This Is Our Music, etc. If you want something more intense you might also enjoy the album Free Jazz.

Lonely Woman was one of the first tracks that really turned me on to jazz.

If you like the way Ornette sounds kind of *unpredictable* compared to other jazz, you might also enjoy Thelonious Monk.

Well, let's rephrase, perhaps, by saying that there's a difference between genuinely being invested in a particular type of music and just giving it lip service all the time for the sake of affect. And that's true of people regardless of their age or the particular kind of music involved.

That being said, let's try to get back to your original question. I would advise you to step lightly through Ornette Coleman's catalogue. He (like so many others under the 'jazz' rubric) has essayed a dizzying panoply of styles throughout his career, from free jazz to funk to "third stream" orchestral hybrids. He's made great records in all of these genres, but depending on what aspects in particular you liked about The Shape of Jazz To Come, a bit of preselection may be in order.

Change of the Century is of a piece with Shape and contains the same basic line-up. Free Jazz is amazing. People also rave about the pair of "Golden Circle" live discs on Blue Note. After that, he goes all over the stylistic map, but Science Fiction/Skies of America and Dancing In Your Head are key. Of his more recent work, the soundtrack to Naked Lunch is aces.

I personally loved John Coltrane as he was expanding on his "sheets of sound" innovations but before he completely left Planet Earth in his final recordings with Alice Coltrane/Rashied Ali. My Favorite Things and Giant Steps are early cornerstones of Coltrane's work. Also try Live at the Village Vanguard. If you're feeling more stylistically ambitious, have a go at Africa/Brass. Somewhere, there's an unstoppable European radio broadcast version of "My Favorite Things" that makes me levitate, it's so unfuckingbelievable, but it was issued on some smaller, third-rate label and might be harder to track down now. I'm useless on the details of that one.

Coltrane's A Love Supreme and Miles Davis's Kind of Blue are, collectively, the Dark Side of the Moon of jazz: e.g., they're the albums which seemingly everyone has heard, owned, or at least heard of.

If you're feeling more hardcore, Albert Ayler will kill most household rodents and small children within listening radius. Go for his ESP-Disk sides like Bells/Prophecy and Spiritual Unity.

Other names to investigate, of no less importance but I just don't feel like writing an entire book at the moment: Cecil Taylor, Eric Dolphy, Charles Mingus, Don Cherry, Archie Shepp, Thelonius Monk, Pharoah Sanders.

Good luck.

Incidentally, I got into jazz by living next door to a jazz major in my sophomore year of college. He'd play stuff I liked, so I'd ask who it was. A lot of the time it was John Coltrane. So, I bought the album "Blue Train," and liked it so much that I had him fill out one of those twelve for a penny Columbia Club cards for me and ended up with a bunch of Monk, Mingus, Miles Davis, Brubeck, Ornette, and Coltrane. I was a douchebag before that, but I've been a jazz douchebag ever since.

Also, check out the often-forgotten Ornette On Tenor. (I think it's available on CD at present.)

I recommend picking up the Thelonious Monk albums on Columbia before investigating his earlier stuff. They're a little smoother, a little easier to just let wash over you; they don't have the herky-jerky edge of his 1950s recordings. Recommended titles: Monk, Criss-Cross, Monk's Dream, It's Monk's Time, Underground and the live 2CD sets Monk In Tokyo and Live At The Jazz Workshop.

Also well worth hearing - Sonny Rollins's Our Man In Jazz, East Broadway Run Down and On Impulse.

For me, at least, this is why I liked but didn't love Monk until I started listening to the Riverside and Prestige stuff.

Listen to some King Oliver and Armstrong's Hot Fives and Sevens, and see if that misconception holds up.

Probably not, actually. And it's also worth bearing in mind that a big part of Ornette's music is his refusal to work with chord changes (no piano player for most of his career). So it's gonna be difficult to find many pianists doing similar stuff. Perhaps you should check out some Cecil Taylor. I recommend The Cecil Taylor Unit, 3 Phasis and One Too Many Salty Swift And Not Goodbye; on all three of those the instrumentation was piano, trumpet, saxophone, violin, bass, drums. Some seriously wild, adventurous shit.

Yeah, pdf, I just listened to all of Blue Train (Trane?), and I think the piano is part of what irritates me. Not that it has to, but it definitely gives me the (admittedly somewhat bullshit) stereotypical vision of being in a lightly smoky dark jazz club leaning back in a both just "soaking it all in" with the other cats. But Monk is a piano player, right? So are you saying he is one of the few doing similar stuff to Ornette? Or that he's actually not that similar?

And thanks, Jordan.

Austin, what is Sonny Rollins like? I have a trusted record-store-owning friend who likes him better than Coltrane. Is he free jazz or, I mean, what's his deal? And I am totally down for some ugly beauty. Thank you.

Fork, if the big band question was for me (not sure), that era still reminds me too much of trying to play the baritone horn in jazz band in 8th grade at this point. I also connect it with that late '90s beast - ska-punk/punk-ska (whatever) - and the simultaneous swing revival. This kind of music was responsible for my interest in music in the first place and "Swingers" is a great movie and all, but I just don't think I'm ready to go there yet.

1. never carry around a double-bass
2. always knock before entering a room
3. make sure it's okay to play your neighbor's guitar

by doing these three things you will avoid jazz douchebaggery

...and the tangentially-related Flying Luttenbachers, with whom Ken Vandermark played in their earliest days and who owned the punk-jazz sound on their brilliant debut album, Constructive Destruction.

The Luttenbachers subsequently descended into total black-metal chaos and Weasel Walter eventually split Chicago, but it was all fun while it lasted.

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As for Sonny Rollins, he's hard to pin down -- he's been all over the map. He did in fact have a period where he followed the innovations of Ornette Coleman, though most of his material is more straight ahead. Saxophone Colossus is sort of considered the classic Rollins album if there is to be only one. I like the Village Vanguard trio stuff a lot myself -- you might like it if you like Ornette since it's also pianoless, which gives it a somewhat similar freedom. I also like The Bridge. But for someone like you he doesn't seem like the right artist to start with.

No need to feel bad about finding Blue Train a little dull. I do myself. Better to start with Giant Steps or his earlier albums with the Tyner/Garrison/Jones quartet (My Favorite Things, Coltrane's Sound, etc.) That Live at the Village Vanguard set is one of my favorite things in music. Fuck. Now I need to listen to it.

(For the uninitiated: Live is from November '61: Coltrane, McCoy Tyner, Jimmy Garrison, Elvin Jones, Eric Dolphy, elegant and quick-witted and lyrical, includes "Chasin' the Trane." Live... Again is from May '66, Coltrane and Garrison joined by Pharoah Sanders, Alice Coltrane, Rashied Ali and Emanuel Rahim, and it's... screechtastic, especially when Sanders disembowels the theme of "Naima" with a broken plastic spoon. Also excellent, but yeah, if you're expecting more like the '61 Vanguard, it's going to be like expecting It Happened One Night and getting Videodrome.)

(Actually, if you want more like the '61 Vanguard, just get Impressions.)

I heartily second Myke's enthusiasm for Constructive Destruction, and I'd add that you also can't go wrong with its sequel, Destroy All Music.

Also, I think the real issue underlying my silly concern that started this whole thread is the fear of having to learn a whole new vocabulary when getting into a new genre of music. The desire to just have the knowledge instead of having to accrue it. The fear of looking stupid when you're not the resident expert in the room. Which is silly, 'cause the accruing is the fun part, and I am usually very down for this kind of stuff. I think the clincher is that you must add, with jazz (for me, at least), the inability to sort of discover all this on my own on the sly via the help of books/documentaries/critics/etc, which was much easier for me re: pop, rock and hip-hop.

Austin, "Reflections" didn't really do it for me. Not intense enough, I think. But I really appreciate the effort. I'm listening to Ayler's Spiritual Unity right now, and it's more up my alley. A little too squawky, though.

And Berman, do you mean the '61 or '66 Vanguard set? Your description has piqued my interest.

This is an ILM-redeeming thread for me. Thanks all.

I also share your feelings about Spiritual Unity -- I like it but I don't think I could sit through it if it was longer because it's so honky. I really like the bass and drums better than the sax.

Derek Bailey and Henry Kaiser - Wireforks

Derek Bailey and Susie Ybarra - Daedal

Derek Baily and DJ Ninj - Guitar and Drum and Bass

Derek Bailey and Min Tanaka - Music and Dance

Any of the records with Braxton are amazing, especially the extended blowout at the end of the Wigmore 2lp set (which I think was a rehearsal .. not from the actual live performance .. need to check)

But I actually think he may be at his best solo; Incus Taps, Solo, Vol 1 and Vol. 2, Standards .. and the best will always be Aida.

Along with the other Coltranes mentioned, I recommend Transition which was the last great record by the 4tet (Tyner Jones Garrison).

And YES! Hamid Drake! Go see him play! Ideally with William Parker.

Contemporary trumpeter Roy Campbell.

Derek Bailey RIP.

On a whim I just put on an album I haven't heard for a few years -- I think I reviewed it for the college paper: Paul Bley/Gary Peacock/Paul Motian "Not Two, Not One."

This is a really great, largely overlooked record! Perfect example of how group improvisation can stay "focused" and doesn't necessarily have to be chaotic and noisy (though there's nothing wrong with that either). I'm not as crazy about the Bley solo piano stuff on the disc, but the duo and trio stuff is great.

for trumpet:

Bill Dixon, Vade Mecum. An absolute landmark in this music.

Funny you should say that. He's actually quite notorious for not being a nice guy. I've seen him be extremely rude to audience members who complimented him after a show, snidely critiqueing their praise for him. His reputation for being a dick is such that he gets far less work than he used to, and many former collaborators refuse to speak to him.

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It's pretty much the opposite of free improv, it's all beats and through-composition and great melodies & backgrounds.

Allmusic tells me they were both involved in Chicago's Association for the Advancement of Creative Musicians. Maybe that's where I should go next. Thanks for the recommendation!

also, ill agree with upthread that conference of the birds is excellent.

Cohran was the trumpeter (one of 'em anyway) for Sun Ra, way way back. Related if you like his stuff:

Sun Ra: Angels and Demons at Play; Nubians of Plutonia (many Ra disks are available as twofers on the Evidence label); Fate in a Pleasant Mood; Outer Spaceways Incorporated; Heliocentric Worlds Vol. 1 (better than vol. 2, but get both if you can);

Propulsive and Riff-heavy all on its ownself: Pharoah Sanders: Summun Bukman Umyan (Deaf Dumb & Blind) and Black Unity.

Also think: McCoy Tyner, Sama Layuca. Song for my Lady.

Bobby Hutcherson, San Francisco (there are many great BH albums, but this one has the rhythmic propulsion necessary).

Upthread mentions by that brilliant lad js: Lawrence of Newark. You would have to be a stuttering fool to not get this one for its blast of outrageous fonk. And it may leave you a stuttering fool by the time you're done.

Psychedlic funk jazz rhythmic propulsion? Les McCann's Invitation to Openess. But save it for an evening of wine and uh explorations.

Threadgill, Fred Hopkins and Steve McCall had a group called Air. They were all zodiacal air signs, thus the name. They were also part of the Muhal Abrams Sextet before Muhal moved to Boston. Air has some good disks on Black Saint. This was at the beginning of Threadgills multi-instrumental approach. Mostly his flute and percussion with Hopkins bass and McCall's drums. Fred and Steve are both gone now, unfortunately. Threadgill's Zooid with Up Popped the Two Lips is good, and if there is such a thing, math-jazz.

I have found very few disks on Black Saint which disappoint. Among those that are quite good:

Billy Harper: Black Saint
David Murray: Ming
Andrew Cyrille: Metamusician's Stomp
Sonny Clark Memorial Quartet (John Zorn, Wayne Horvitz, et al): Voodoo

and easily twenty more.

I like the unusual texture/timbre that he brings with his ensembles. He tends to find instruments and groupings of instruments that are underused by other bands. Things like tuba, accordion, french horn, piccolo, etc. In my fave group of his, Very Very Circus, not only did he put two electrical guitars, two upper register winds, and two tubas together (sort of a siamese twin of a band joined at the hip by a single drummer) he'd dedicate songs and movements inside songs to subgroups within that pretty unusual lineup. So you get a lot more tonal variety than you find in the common run of jazz groups. I also dig that he's not afraid of polyrhythm - he borrows a lot of latin, african and african stuff, not to mention ragtime touches, but doesn't just copy them (at least as far as I can tell.) Or he'll drop regular rhythm entirely and play something akin to the 'alap' section of a raga. I've heard some people argue that he's not really jazz, because he's seated so much in other traditions, including modern classical. Doesn't matter to me, much, though. What it really comes down to is I find his music incredibly memorable and beautiful, despite the fact that/because it's sometimes pretty unorthodox and complicated.

What did Harper play?

That's a great record, and you really can't go wrong with those Free America discs (although they are more expensive.) Verve, ESP and Atavistic put out some great, relatively inexpensive out stuff.

If you're in the Philadelphia area, ars nova workshop has been doing a great concert series in venues all over West Philly. Threadgill is playing in March. (It's too bad I missed Sunny Murray back in October.)

Also, xpost, just to defend myself: I am not a douchebag. As Richard Pryor tells the crowd in Here and Now when they defy his claims of being clean and sober, you don't have to believe me. But it is true.

Change of the Century is probably a more accessible, now that I think about it.

But having said that, yall have gotta check out 'Khalid of Space Part Two' (from "Lawrence of Newark") and it's not exactly short. It's got tremendous forward momentum...a really frantic, nervous, tense rhythm...and then the payoff at the climax of the track just has to be heard. Thanks for all those who recommended it

Being just a jazz dabbler, I couldn't tell you what kind of jazz Bobby Hutcherson is playing. I can say that it's just about the kind of jazz that bores me--polite & sterile--but it's not. It's got an extra oomph to it, esp. on 'Goin Down South.' I think I could probably even slip that one into a DJ set.

The title track from "Mama Too Tight" is so UP, I'd love to have it playing right as you're finishing your 5th beer in an hour, feeling great, flirting with the bartender, knowing you're about 45 seconds from being totally wasted.

Anyway, those are my unsolicited thoughts. I think these albums and the other ones on this thread are a nice blueprint for years of happy listening.

All done!

About 4 years ago, I watched Hamid Drake tear it up with both DKV and the Vandermark 5 in the same evening. A little later, I went to another club where Gerald Cleaver was drumming for a Mat Maneri-led group. Hamid echoed your sentiment--Cleaver was just plain ill.

OK, Billy. Now you have to go find Shepp's _Magic of Juju_ somewhere--the 18 minute title track (more frenzy in the mold of Khalid of Space, but just tenor and 5 percussionists) will break you of your 3:00 and under fixation and "Your What This Day Is All About" in 1:51 will restore your smile, guaranteed.

For that 5th beer in an hour but feelin' all right, laughing as you try to walk down three flights of stairs to get to the street:

Eric Dolphy_Music_Matador. Written by Prince Lasha & Sonny Simmons, with Dolphy on bass clarinet, Hutcherson on vibes, Clifford Jordan (soprano sax?), and (18 year old) Woody Shaw on trumpet, this tune just blisters me with delight. Richard Davis strums his bass to open, and it all just kind of swims from there.

Others not mentioned:

Oliver Nelson * The Blues And The Abstract Truth (Impulse) 61
The Horace Silver Quintet * Song for My Father (Blue Note) 64
Sun Ra * Other Planes of There (Evidence) 64

These ILXors turned me into a douchebag last night. This Esperanza Spalding woman is TOO MUCH.

XD

DAMN right.

Don't forget that Joyce track, too:

I think you fancy this guy. You asked him if he drank his own cum and you have photos of him on your computer. Time to own up.

waht