I hate hippy music (i.e. the dead, phish, jam bands) do you and why?

People who gemeralise and refuse to listen and make lazy assumptions should be put up against a wall and shot. Zero tolerance indeed!

Yeah, but find me someone who *DOEST* do this!

I tend to agree with Gregg, actually. I'm just not a fan of that sort've aesthetic. While I admired the Grateful Dead's singular way of doing things and the manner in which they fostered a sense of community with their fans, I have no fondness for their music whatsoever. It'd not that I find it unlistenably bad (like, say, the music of Destiny's Child), but that I don't hear what's particularly remarkable about it - - or at least remarkable enough to inspire such a dedicated (pardon the pun) following.

The other bands in their wake, however (Phish and the Wetlands Preserve contingent of "jam bands") just seem like pretenders to the throne. I suppose one could make the argument that they're "carrying on the spirit" of the Dead, since the Dead themselves can no longer do it.

Personally speaking, I just don't find the music to be very exciting, and that's really the bottom line for me. It's yawnsome.

Moreover, I can't play hackey-sack to save my life. Nor do I have a desire to improve in this capacity.

That said, most ppl don't go to Phish concerts to listen to the music anyway.

The collegiate crowd faves you mention have bad haircuts and dress less fashionably but are no less snooze-inducing than big chunks of the ouevres of Miles Davis, Stereolab, Sonic Youth, My Bloody Valentine, Aphex Twin, Air, Slayer, Black Flag, etc.

The Dead were often brilliant, but as we've previously established, aren't everyone's cup of tea.

it's the drugs. they inhibit the brain's self-critical faculties - the ones that would normally say "oh dear merciful jesus, do you realise how self-indulgent and WANK that sounds??! and PUT SOME FREAKING PANTS ON!". So the hapless hippy can go on and on in his/her/ its quest to find the most convoluted guitar solo in the history of wank.

yeknow, if the anti-drug councils put that in their Educational Films, i bet the statistics would plummet.

*Sigh*... Well, what is "hippy music", then? Janis/Big Brother? Jimi Hendrix Experience? Jefferson Airplane? the Byrds? Santana? Neil Young? It all sucks, but since I'm partial to sucking myself, I guess I'm biased.

Hippy music = guitar noodling, 'covert' drug allusions, tie-dyed anything...think Acieeeed House without the whistles and beats, and with wanky guitar solos and you're almost there.

HAWKWIND = R0X0R

AMON DUUL 2 = R0X0R

MAN = R0X0R

ASH RA TEMPEL = R0X0R

JOR TH30R!3Z = BASED ON PARTIAL E\/!|)3n(3 OV "phish" & "gratephul d34d" = SUX0R

PR0\/3|\| BY SK!E|\|CE LAY|\/|UrZz!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#!@#

Bob

Jam bands = Grateful Dead '75 onwards, Allman Brothers, Phish, Dave Matthews, Blues Traveler, Big Head Todd & the Monsters, Aquarium Rescue Unit, Dark Star Orchestra, Government Mule, etc. It is my opinion that jam bands generally suck, mainly because while they're improvising all the time, they tend to stay in a fairly straightforward harmonic and rhythmic structure and not push any experimental boundaries (read: they don't fuck with noise enough). This isn't always true (certainly the Dead did some wacked out stuff from time to time), but the new breed of jamband is generally boring (exceptions: Medeski, Martin & Wood, Gov't Mule on rare occasions).

Hippie Music = Incredible String Band, Amon Duul I, Hawkwind, Jefferson Airplane, Love, Moby Grape, HP Lovecraft, etc. Modern exponents include virtually all of the Elephant Six collective (Neutral Milk Hotel, Olivia Tremor Control, Elf Power) and other such types. It's far more difficult for me to draw a general conclusion as to the worth of the genre here, since I like lots of it and despise lots of it.

Anyway, thass my two cents.

The main problem I have with this whole scene is that there is a tangible difference between 'improvising' (even if it's funky and on one chord) and 'jamming'.

Phish up to 1992 is brilliant, especially their first album. What's come from them since is mostly crap -- they lost all of the playfulness and adventurousness, and became for the most part a godawful deadly-dull one-step-shy-of-adult-contemporary snoozefest. If that was all the Phish I knew, I'd hate them, but Junta is one of my favorite albums of all time, and I find myself wondering how many of the people who rip Phish to shreds have actually, y'know, heard their best album.

As for "aimless noodling", yes, sometimes -- but sometimes it's brilliant. There are performances by them that are probably the best rock-based improvisations I have heard, certainly in any event by a band working collectively. There are also performances that come off as self-indulgent precious diddling. It all depends. But I find that for me, it has a much better signal-to-noise ratio than "the drone thing", 90% of which is unlistenable: rare is the day that I particularly want to hear three [or fewer] chords at ear-destroying volume for 20 minutes by people who don't know how to play their instruments, with helium-voiced squeakies ("oh, how ethereal") or mushmouthed non-singers intoning pretentious banalities over the top of it. The other 10% admittedly can be rather good, especially when it's toward the quiet end of the spectrum, and I do tend to like bands that incorporate drone-related stuff as a part of their songs -- but, by and large, not the whole thing. I'd usually rather hear bad jam-band-style noodling than a bad drone, especially live; the former is constantly disappointing, but the latter is mind-numbingly oppressive, like watching a musical representation of monomaniacal imbecility.

Allman Bros.: I haven't heard much post-Duane that interested me (except "Try It One More Time"), but the Fillmore album and Eat a Peach are magnificent.

Dave Matthews, Blues Traveler, Big Head Todd & the Monsters, Aquarium Rescue Unit -- these bands are of zero interest to me, from what I know of them. Dull, dull, dull.

Medeski, Martin & Wood, Scofield, etc. -- perhaps I need to hear better stuff, but though I appreciate what they're after, there's something uninvolving about everything I've heard from them. It feels processed, calculated, tame, like Funk Lite. But I've heard that MMW put out an album that was supposedly much wilder than their other stuff, and will have to check that out.

Hippiness is aesthetics for aesthetics sake, with the corruption and meaninglessness that entails: Tyrannosaurus Rex. Hippiness is strictly anti-postmodern: Kraftwerk (who enjoined their listeners in interviews to 'listen to the inner sound of the trees' and figured out how to make alienating industry into something 'natural').

Hippiness is about surrendering your ironic distance, along with your political and moral discretion. It's revoltingly shallow when unchecked, but without an element of lasciviousness or decadence, music is nothing but hollow form.

I seem to remember hearing something from that album back in 1992. I remember it sounded like the Inspiral Carpets.

You know, I'm a big fan of poststructuralism, but there's this group of academics in the U.S. that claims "you can't criticize our work until you've read every shred that Foucault ever published, because otherwise you can't possibly understand what we're talking about." I always thought that line of argument was bogus (Cf. my spat with Sterling on the SR thread), and just a way to avoid critical engagement. So, if there's something about Junta that radically departs from the remainder of Phish-dom (sounding like Inspiral Carpets would probably qualify, although I personally don't view that as a good thing), I'm ready to revise my opinion. If not, it stands.

Anyway, I've always had a soft spot for "A Live One" which has some nice moments on it, as well as some excruciating ones. The opening three songs are quite nice, as I recall.

To my ears, there is, but if you've heard Lawn Boy and hated it, your odds of liking Junta are slim to none.

Your Foucault-scholar analogy is a red herring, btw.

The former mostly noodle harmonically and melodically (lots of dead stuff sounds almost harmolodic to me, but without the phrasing or imagination that makes Ornette so listenable). The latter (the ones I know, anyway) noodle rhythmically/texturally, so there's more rock to them. But Sonic Youth and the Dead are both at their best when they play pop songs. Sunglasses are important too.

Compare

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/red-herring.html

with

http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/falsean.htm

My analogy is clearly open to attack because you only asked me to consider one specific work, rather than the entire corpus of phish's work. However, my point was that other phish fans have championed other specific works to me, and thus my opinion, even if you consider it valid, would be deemed invalid by another phish fan. The analogical flaw is that I effectively attributed their arguments to you, and I was well aware of that when I was doing it. In fact, if you review my post, you'll see that I specifically enumerated out each argument I've been hit with.

The former mostly noodle harmonically and melodically (lots of dead stuff sounds almost harmolodic to me, but without the phrasing or imagination that makes Ornette so listenable). The latter (the ones I know, anyway) noodle rhythmically/texturally, so there's more rock to them

Phish, since ~96, has consistently sought to emphasize the latter and deemphasize the former in live performance.

still, they profess a love for uriah heep. and thats just wrong.

oh but... last night American Routes aired an episode on jerry garcia and it was very good. for once it made me stop associating his name with "cherry garcia" and other ridiculous cliched aspects of the hippy scene:

http://www.americanroutes.com/thisweek.html

Not every such band reads Ptolemaic Terrascope, alas.

You can usually tell those who do the former from those who do the latter by ridiculocity of band name alone, the more retarded/cartoonish the band name, the more likely that they are Jammers and not Group Improvisers. Examples include: Soulive vs. Deep Banana Blackout. Project Logic vs. Rat Dog. Masada vs. String Cheese Incident.

And also, I've said this before: I hate the way the mere word "hippie" (or "hippy"; or for that matter "folkie") is always used as an automatic unquestioned kneejerk putdown of a performer and his/her music; whereas the exact opposite applies to "punk."
There was (and is) such a thing as GOOD hippy music, and there's certainly enough crap punk out there.

Typical hippie, c.1967 - anti-establishment, poor hygiene, noisy guitar [sometimes], drug abuse, stupid hairstyle/clothing, dumb politics.

Typical punk, c.1977 - ditto

Typical punk, c.1977 - ditto

But, see, I object to those aspects of BOTH.

Peace
Chester Hagans
(a hippie)

there's a local band called Trinity Roots who are about to embark on a bit of tour (of Europe and Australia).. they have tightly structured songs which when they play live they blow out into these massive musical beasts. this is about the closest they've got to a recording of the experience... when you see them live the sound just goes up and up and up on section A, then drops back down to the start of B and goes up and up and up on B, then they bring back A AT FULL FORCE OVER THE TOP and it's like being blasted with I don't know how to describe it, blasted with GRRRRRRRRR and you jump and scream and then, and then they do the whole thing again because all you've had so far is the first verse and first chorus and there's another two verses to go and already they've been playing the song for ten minutes.

I suppose my point is what separates a good live gig from a crap live gig in any genre is ability to jam, and jam well. Bands who go up and play the songs just as they are on the CD are all well and good but that's not what I go to gigs for, I want the intensity of performing live to push the musicians to do their best... With CDs filling people's need for worked-out music I think what needs to happen in a live situation is the creation of new music. When I play out with my laptop what I try and do is recreate the space I get lost in when I'm sitting at home lost in the creation of music, in that kind of flow where everything you can do is potentially interesting and it's about exploration. A good live band experience should have enough structure that there's no need for noodling guitar wankery to plug the gaps, but enough freedom that new ideas can be tested and played.

... that's why funk worked, and why Trinity Roots work. A strong round and round and round bassline, that is good enough to stand on its own should all the other musicians drop out.

It's Marley, by the way.

We watched the bonus DVD from the Grateful Dead movie again last night, this
time in 5.1, and I have this to say:

Ye gods.

No wait, I think I said that already.

I have THIS to say:

Fuck Pink Floyd. Fuck Dylan, and fuck The Band.

DOUBLE-FUCK The Beatles.

Fuck Miles Davis, and fuck John Coltrane. Fuck Jimmy Garrison, Elvin Jones and McCoy
Tyner (more on them later :). Fuck Charlie Parker, fuck Thelonious Monk, fuck Scott
LeFaro, and fuck Louis Armstrong, too, while you're at it.

Fuck Radiohead. Fuck Tortoise. Fuck Squarepusher and Aphex Twin. Fuck Primus, and
fuck Ween. I'm honestly not really sure why fuck Ween, but just fuck them in general. :)

Needless to say, fuck Phish and the Disco Biscuits.

And probably fuck a whole bunch of other people, too...

Cuz I saw EVERY ONE of the above musicians and bands outdone at their own game by the Grateful Dead in 1974. After the disk was over we watched (also in 5.1) the only existing video recording of the Coltrane quartet with the above-mentioned Misters Garrison, Jones and Tyner, and that shit was pretty goddamn hot, too, but overall I still gotta give the edge to the Dead.

The fact that you can watch a multi-camera FILM source, with quadrophonic fucking
sound, of that Dark Star is like a gift from the gods. That shit should be shown on
repeated loop in the Smithsonian. I truly believe it's the apex of American music.

Laura got more into the Dead last night than I've ever seen her, and it's easy to understand why. It's just so fucking VISCERAL to be watching that amazing footage of that amazing music - I feel like I have a whole new understanding and appreciation of the Dead, after all these years. For the first time, I think I know what it would have been like to be there, and frankly I think the people who decided to abandon real life and just follow that band around and watch every performance were the only sane Americans of that era. I've sure never seen any musician play anything that good, and I've been to a lot of fucking shows...

I never really got before that, even at their spaciest, those motherfuckers were FUNKY. No wonder people danced to that goddamn abrasive, abstract, atonal music: holy goddamn rhythm section. Fuck Joe Russo - Kreutzmann is the illest, dirtiest, most creative drummer you could ever hope to see play. And this shit gets you right up in his face.

Bob Weir got fuckin LUCKY, man, lemme tell ya... :)

We're thinking of making a weekly ritual of this. They should have held off on releasing it on DVD, and screened it instead on 100-foot high screens, with the quad sound, in MSG. I'd fuckin go that on New Year's over anything. By releasing this they've realized a lot of people's dreams, and unfortunately they'll never have the opportunity to do that for the first time again. There are Deadheads who DIED without ever getting experience anything like this...you should all go out and make the most of it, for their sake alone.

Mark my fuckin words. YOU NEED THIS DVD. I don't care who you are, or what you think
about the Dead. If you can't watch that Dark Star and know you're watching the best band that ever was, well, then you and I have very different opinions on why music should be made in the first place...

But don't just skip to the Dark Star. Watch the whole thing. The first couple songs aren't
nearly as great, but I think if the world "mindblowing" could ever apply to anything, it's
what would happen if you dove right into that Dark Star without preparation. At least
throw on the Scarlet and China > Rider first. The first half of Scarlet should be long
enough to rock a sufficient number of bowls while Donna gets her moan on, and then
you'll be ready just in time to watch music pour forth from Garcia like you've never seen from a human being before. There are times when I thought he was actually gonna
physically burst, because I can't believe one person can contain that much music...it's coming out of him in waves.

And then stick around afterwards for the LAST-EVER PERFORMANCE of Weather Report Suite, and the best I've heard. The motherfuckers are playing BEBOP. It's exactly what
Coltrane and Miles set out to do, and the Dead, with them as inspiration, came closer to
achieving it.

Whoa, daddy.

it def. fits for a board called i LOVE music cuz that's what this is all about:

Fuck Pink Floyd. Fuck Dylan, and fuck The Band.

DOUBLE-FUCK The Beatles.

Fuck Miles Davis, and fuck John Coltrane. Fuck Jimmy Garrison, Elvin Jones and McCoy
Tyner (more on them later :). Fuck Charlie Parker, fuck Thelonious Monk, fuck Scott
LeFaro, and fuck Louis Armstrong, too, while you're at it.

Fuck Radiohead. Fuck Tortoise. Fuck Squarepusher and Aphex Twin. Fuck Primus, and
fuck Ween. I'm honestly not really sure why fuck Ween, but just fuck them in general. :)

Needless to say, fuck Phish and the Disco Biscuit.

and the "Fuck ______" comments, i think, show that this is a relatively well-schooled, diverse music fan. it's for effect obviously. kid doesn't mean Charlie Parker or the Beatles weren't great artists.

of course this isn't worth arguing, as those convinced the dead are worthless is just about as entrenched a belief as a 13th C belief that the world is flat. meaning it's not even plausible to argue it to the holder of that belief.