white soul

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so i am working on a 70s-80s white (i mean, it doesn't have to be made by white people, just not exclusively black, like crossover shit is ok like 10cc) soul mix. so i have some bowie, phil collins, simply red, sade, van morrison, eddie kendricks, roxy music (later brian ferry controlled shit from avalon- which I think could be the best album in the history of the world), and of course, hall&oates. does anybody have some ideas of groups that would fit in with the ones i have listed? I am kind of at a dead end because I wasn't alive in the 70's.
xxoo-cc

― Chris Cirgenski (cirgenski), Sunday, 18 June 2006 19:30 (nineteen years ago)

Rick Astley

― polyphonic (polyphonic), Sunday, 18 June 2006 19:34 (nineteen years ago)

hi chris, good to (sort of) see you

― lf (lfam), Sunday, 18 June 2006 19:37 (nineteen years ago)

hey leo thank you for telling me to do this

― Chris Cirgenski (cirgenski), Sunday, 18 June 2006 19:38 (nineteen years ago)

don't forget foxy michael mcdonald

― Susan Douglas (Susan Douglas), Sunday, 18 June 2006 19:38 (nineteen years ago)

are these dudes philly soul?

― Chris Cirgenski (cirgenski), Sunday, 18 June 2006 19:41 (nineteen years ago)

you might want to check out some TOM MOULTON mixes. he remixed a lot of philly soul in the 70s and he's white.

also, the chi-lites, even though they are all black.

― lf (lfam), Sunday, 18 June 2006 19:42 (nineteen years ago)

Hall & Oats

― Bucky Fullminster (vincent spano), Sunday, 18 June 2006 19:43 (nineteen years ago)

they don't HAVE to be white

― Chris Cirgenski (cirgenski), Sunday, 18 June 2006 19:44 (nineteen years ago)

bucky fullminster didn't read my question AND his email looks like fatwa which is funny

― Chris Cirgenski (cirgenski), Sunday, 18 June 2006 19:45 (nineteen years ago)

ok forget mcdonald. i can only think of phoenix which probably doesn't help.

― Susan Douglas (Susan Douglas), Sunday, 18 June 2006 19:48 (nineteen years ago)

Hall & Oats are from in Philly and were quite soulful at times.

― Bucky Fullminster (vincent spano), Sunday, 18 June 2006 19:50 (nineteen years ago)

"from Philly"

― Bucky Fullminster (vincent spano), Sunday, 18 June 2006 19:50 (nineteen years ago)

chi-lites

― Susan Douglas (Susan Douglas), Sunday, 18 June 2006 19:51 (nineteen years ago)

Chris- You are right, I misread the question.

― Bucky Fullminster (vincent spano), Sunday, 18 June 2006 19:57 (nineteen years ago)

How about Joe Cocker?

― Bucky Fullminster (vincent spano), Sunday, 18 June 2006 20:08 (nineteen years ago)

Paul Carrack?

― Jim M (jmcgaw), Sunday, 18 June 2006 20:12 (nineteen years ago)

Tower of Power?

― Bucky Fullminster (vincent spano), Sunday, 18 June 2006 20:13 (nineteen years ago)

susan- sweet freedom by mcdonald was right on.

― Chris Cirgenski (cirgenski), Sunday, 18 June 2006 20:42 (nineteen years ago)

Boz!

― Stupornaut (natepatrin), Sunday, 18 June 2006 21:03 (nineteen years ago)

Boz seconded!
Teena Marie!

― imbidimts (imbidimts), Sunday, 18 June 2006 21:20 (nineteen years ago)

Bobby Caldwell

― Jordan (Jordan), Sunday, 18 June 2006 21:21 (nineteen years ago)

chris, you are doomed. though i always thought you should be here.

― trees (treesessplode), Sunday, 18 June 2006 21:45 (nineteen years ago)

Rare Earth.
Steve Miller's Saving Grace.

― J Arthur Rank (Quin Tillian), Sunday, 18 June 2006 21:48 (nineteen years ago)

ted "i can't go for that, (no can do)" is the greatest fucking song of all time. it pushed avalon into a number 2 position and 'in the air tonight' into number 3. i am listening to it right now on loop.

― Chris Cirgenski (cirgenski), Sunday, 18 June 2006 21:50 (nineteen years ago)

Oh I guess also Steely Dan maybe. You might even want to lead the mix off with "Dirty Work".

― Stupornaut (natepatrin), Sunday, 18 June 2006 21:50 (nineteen years ago)

Yeah, Chris. Where's the love for the SD?

― trees (treesessplode), Sunday, 18 June 2006 21:56 (nineteen years ago)

TYNAN TO THREAD

― jinx hijinks (sanskrit), Sunday, 18 June 2006 22:05 (nineteen years ago)

certain SD tracks would def fit. are delfonics not "crossover" enough...to white smooth soul/pop??

― Susan Douglas (Susan Douglas), Sunday, 18 June 2006 22:56 (nineteen years ago)

Todd Rundgren is from near Philly and is quite soulful at times, the prime example being "It Wouldn't Have Made Any Difference". "The Verb To Love" is great too.

― LC (Damian), Monday, 19 June 2006 00:10 (nineteen years ago)

Rundgren recommendations 2nded

― Susan Douglas (Susan Douglas), Monday, 19 June 2006 01:26 (nineteen years ago)

I don't understand. Is 'white' some sort of aesthetic yr trying to communicate? What is "white soul" that is "not all white"? This is a very confusing thread.

― deej.. (deej..), Monday, 19 June 2006 01:38 (nineteen years ago)

I'm confused too, and I'm sure there's an explanation... But I came here to talk about Todd Rundgren, so now he's been 3rded. Check out A Wizard A True Star. His medley of I'm So Proud/Ooh Baby Baby/La La Means I Love You/Cool Jerk ought to fit right in with what your after. The rest of the album ain't too shabby either.

― jim wentworth (wench), Monday, 19 June 2006 01:54 (nineteen years ago)

i think 'white soul' is soul music without detroit's grit or philly's gospel.

― lf (lfam), Monday, 19 June 2006 02:04 (nineteen years ago)

That sentence is even more confusing. I thought the usual line on Detroit was about shiny mainstream R&B vs. Stax's grit, and don't lots of the artists listed have heavy gospel influences?

― deej.. (deej..), Monday, 19 June 2006 02:06 (nineteen years ago)

yes. i thought he was talking about philly soul flavors in pop/rock acts which were lusher/more stringy/smoother. 3rdly somewhat confused although i'm getting a picture of the aesthetic.

― Susan Douglas (Susan Douglas), Monday, 19 June 2006 02:07 (nineteen years ago)

pat boone

― timmy tannin (pompous), Monday, 19 June 2006 02:07 (nineteen years ago)

It seems to me that the only thing that would make Hall&Oates a 'pop/rock' act is that they are white. As far as I can hear they sound like pretty much straight up 80s R&B.

― deej.. (deej..), Monday, 19 June 2006 02:08 (nineteen years ago)

deej, you're right, i was thinking of motown.

― lf (lfam), Monday, 19 June 2006 02:15 (nineteen years ago)

TYNAN TO THREAD

Bless you.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 19 June 2006 02:17 (nineteen years ago)

but please know that i was only trying to interpret what i think chris is asking for. it's not an aesthetic i totally understand, either.

so i have some bowie, phil collins, simply red, sade, van morrison, eddie kendricks, roxy music (later brian ferry controlled shit from avalon- which I think could be the best album in the history of the world), and of course, hall&oates.

i don't see much gospel influence in these artists, but maybe you would care to school me? (admission: i've never heard simply red)

― lf (lfam), Monday, 19 June 2006 02:18 (nineteen years ago)

this might help:

so all the androgynous pretty people of the world are going to abandon the "luddites" or "fatties" (this may or may not refer to fred D) or however you refer to them whatever they might be,,, build a glorious pastel palace rocket in which they will throw themselves from this godforsaken planet into the stars, and then land on the moon, and then start a giant, never-ending, fucked-out-of-your-mind lunar cycle (24 hours and 50 min.) party on the fucking moon with 100% oxygen environment. plus we heard that the moon is almost completely made out of pure cocaine
god, power, and parenthood will be abolished and in its stead we will party and then party more

― lf (lfam), Monday, 19 June 2006 02:19 (nineteen years ago)

hall n oates -you always here the pop/rock thing in their vocals and how they are singing together. eh i'm not sure. will wait for tynan!

― Susan Douglas (Susan Douglas), Monday, 19 June 2006 02:21 (nineteen years ago)

Van Morrison's singing seems in the jazz tradition to me. Bowie's is just...weird. I don't see the connection w/ him but I'm not as familiar with his catalogue. I don't know, I'm having trouble linking the artists listed too. I do like Avalon though.

― deej.. (deej..), Monday, 19 June 2006 02:24 (nineteen years ago)

but srsly chris, watch out for these tynan comparisons. they could be deadly.

ElectroSoul in the same vein as Jamie Liddell, Hot Chip, etc.
submitted for your consideration (TYNAN APPRECIATION THREAD)

― lf (lfam), Monday, 19 June 2006 02:27 (nineteen years ago)

oooh that tynan. :( you're safe till you mention jamie lidell

― Susan Douglas (Susan Douglas), Monday, 19 June 2006 03:10 (nineteen years ago)

JAMAROQUAI

― ¨ˆ¨ˆ¨ˆ¨ˆ¨ˆ¨ˆ (chaki), Monday, 19 June 2006 03:22 (nineteen years ago)

i thought he was talking about philly soul flavors in pop/rock acts which were lusher/more stringy/smoother. 3rdly somewhat confused although i'm getting a picture of the aesthetic.

Yeah, I think that that's sort of what CC was going for.

I also don't necessarily agree with this thing about white soul being about being fucked out on coke all the time on another planet, though I understand why that makes sense.

but srsly chris, watch out for these tynan comparisons. they could be deadly.

yup.! watch yr back kid.

― trees (treesessplode), Monday, 19 June 2006 04:04 (nineteen years ago)

Wayne Cochran, the cracker James Brown!

― So Ho La (So Ho La), Monday, 19 June 2006 14:00 (nineteen years ago)

The Blue Nile?

― NickB (NickB), Monday, 19 June 2006 14:13 (nineteen years ago)

Eddie Hinton, "I Can't Be Me"

The Tubes, "Love's A Mystery (I Don't Understand)"

Spandau Ballet, "Lifeline"

― hank (hank s), Monday, 19 June 2006 14:13 (nineteen years ago)

Average White Band.

― Billy Dods (Billy Dods), Monday, 19 June 2006 14:22 (nineteen years ago)

"Why Did You Do It?" - Stretch.

― mike t-diva (mike t-diva), Monday, 19 June 2006 14:24 (nineteen years ago)

Go West - 'We Close Our Eyes'

― NickB (NickB), Monday, 19 June 2006 14:33 (nineteen years ago)

Freeze - 'A-E-I-O-U'

― NickB (NickB), Monday, 19 June 2006 14:34 (nineteen years ago)

I don't know if Paul Pena would fit into this category, but he should. "Gotta Move" in particular.

― mummy wrapped in bacon (nickalicious), Monday, 19 June 2006 14:39 (nineteen years ago)

Terence Trent D'Arby?

― NickB (NickB), Monday, 19 June 2006 14:45 (nineteen years ago)

Tony Joe White

― Huk-L (Huk-L), Monday, 19 June 2006 14:49 (nineteen years ago)

A "white soul" google image search turns up a shit ton of Boston Celtics jerseys haha.

― mummy wrapped in bacon (nickalicious), Monday, 19 June 2006 14:57 (nineteen years ago)

The first GIS I tried to do I typo'd "shite soul", which was hilarious.

― mummy wrapped in bacon (nickalicious), Monday, 19 June 2006 14:57 (nineteen years ago)

How many results involved Atlantic Starr's "Always"?

― Stupornaut (natepatrin), Monday, 19 June 2006 15:16 (nineteen years ago)

Dexys, phase 1...

― hank (hank s), Monday, 19 June 2006 15:42 (nineteen years ago)

when I used the term 'white soul' it was mainly to isolate the new sort of production that was used in sort of synth/pop/rock bands that were totally stealing black soul arrangements. hall&oates played with a bunch of black dudes in philly, got their vibe, and then white-ified it and it got HUGE. not that its bad. i mean, white-ifying things has its own value. like, i mean, i like new wave. but who are we kidding new wave is white people realizing they could pull their heads out of their asses and stop being loud stupid jackasses. susan- i think you got it right. i was just trying to come up with a catchy genre title. it could have been 'synthy-plastic R&B/soul-pop"
also:
don't ask my neighbor by bobby caldwell is amazing. its pushing me further- which is good.
not all the artists I listed are necessarily similar, but there are common strains that they all touch on when they are making a 'cool' (and by that I mean CD101.9) track.
i will watch my back for tynan

― Chris Cirgenski (cirgenski), Monday, 19 June 2006 15:44 (nineteen years ago)

i mean, white-ifying things has its own value. like, i mean, i like new wave. but who are we kidding new wave is white people realizing they could pull their heads out of their asses and stop being loud stupid jackasses.

whaaaaaaaaaaaaathhheeeeeeefffffffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuccccccccck?

― rentboy (rentboy), Monday, 19 June 2006 15:54 (nineteen years ago)

=to date, the strangest and most glorious flower to emerge from white guilt. or just a new confusion???

― Susan Douglas (Susan Douglas), Monday, 19 June 2006 16:02 (nineteen years ago)

Some stuff from John Cale's Island years.

― aDOring NUTbians (donut), Monday, 19 June 2006 16:09 (nineteen years ago)

Tom Jones, The Young Rascals, The Grass Roots, Laura Nyro, Tower of Power, Rod Stewart, Van Morrison

Absolutely Michael McDonald, e.g., Taking It To The Streets (w/ The Doobie Brothers)

Disco era: The Bee-Gees, K.C. and The Sunshine Band, Average White Band, Wild Cherry, Rod Stewart

The Rolling Stones covering The Temptations and Smokey Robinson
Eric Clapton covering Bob Marley and Bo Diddley

The Blues Brothers!
The Fabulous Thunderbirds!

The Blessing ("Highway 5" --I think that was the 80s)

― Vornado (Vornado), Monday, 19 June 2006 19:55 (nineteen years ago)

white artists: ignored on ILM's pages for too long.

― deej.. (deej..), Monday, 19 June 2006 20:42 (nineteen years ago)

hall&oates played with a bunch of black dudes in philly, got their vibe, and then white-ified it and it got HUGE. not that its bad.

From this thread:
defend the indefensible: Hall and Oates
i interviewed darryl a couple of years ago, and he was *wonderful*, but said he resents the blue-eyed-soul tag, because it suggests they were white artists approximating soul, when, in fact, they just were *soul*. he said they were heavily involved in a number of classic Philly Soul trax, and i *think* (but can't say for sure) he sang on a couple, as a session singer.

― LC (Damian), Monday, 19 June 2006 21:14 (nineteen years ago)

Dennis Wilson maybe?

― darin (darin), Monday, 19 June 2006 21:27 (nineteen years ago)

George Micheal
Nu Shooz
Lisa Stansfield

― LeRooLeRoo (Seb), Monday, 19 June 2006 21:29 (nineteen years ago)

ABC
Spandau Ballet
Blow Monkeys, dammit
Eurythmics
Human League at some point

Culture Club. Dude had some pipes.

― slugbuggy (slugbuggy), Monday, 19 June 2006 22:25 (nineteen years ago)

heaven 17's white soul was way better than the human league's.

(the human league's everything else was way better than heaven 17's.)

Dexys, phase 1...

absolutely. "young soul rebels" is a truly great album. i hear tiny traces of it in some of belle and sebastian's more upbeat songs, but not enough to qualify B&S in any way as a soul outfit :)

― grimly fiendish (grimlord), Monday, 19 June 2006 22:43 (nineteen years ago)

listen, it wasn't really about the artists being white, it was more about how the mainstream white culture ate this shit up- and it being more synth driven and plasticky sounding. Really I was just trying to point to the fact that suddenly more white artists and white people were thinking about, listening to and making songs that had soul feel to them.
i just used the term white soul to be provocative.
rentboy you suck.
i am going to white-ify YOU.

― CC (cirgenski), Tuesday, 20 June 2006 02:51 (nineteen years ago)

make him into your own personal rentboy

― jinx hijinks (sanskrit), Tuesday, 20 June 2006 11:11 (nineteen years ago)

rentboy you suck.

did your daddy tell you that? he did say i was better than your moms

― rentboy (rentboy), Tuesday, 20 June 2006 11:17 (nineteen years ago)

Steve Winwood, solo as well as with Spencer Davis Group, Powerhouse, Traffic, and Blind Faith.

― Confounded (Confounded), Tuesday, 20 June 2006 11:55 (nineteen years ago)

"listen, it wasn't really about the artists being white, it was more about how the mainstream white culture ate this shit up- and it being more synth driven and plasticky sounding. Really I was just trying to point to the fact that suddenly more white artists and white people were thinking about, listening to and making songs that had soul feel to them."

I had a weird feeling about your posts yesterday, and this really confirms it. You have a TON of really questionable assumptions packed into your hypothesis. As a white person for whom 70s-80s equalled teens-20s, I feel the statement above bears no recognizable truth relationship to anything I experienced.

In my middle-school years, top-40 radio (which was still pretty universally popular) was full of soul music -- primarily black artists, but also white. Black artists were enormously popular with white kids -- essentially the whole Motown and Philly International lineups. Which is not to say that there wasn't a racial divide -- white kids listened to more Led Zeppelin, Carole King, Beatles, Allman Brothers, Bob Dylan, and less James Brown or Parliament. But no one was more popular than Stevie Wonder, Marvin Gaye, The Jackson Five, The O'Jays, Harold Melvin and the Blue Notes, Otis Redding, Aretha Franklin, The Isley Brothers, The Ohio Players. A few white artists were also popular doing that kind of music -- notably Hall & Oates, and a bunch of New York people like Nyro and The Young Rascals -- but I don't remember them being a lot more popular for being white. And, of course, white musicians were an integral part of the music of some black artists -- essentially everything that came out of Muscle Shoals. Although the racial divide and segmentation in radio continued to deepen, a broad selection of black artists remained mainstream-popular with white kids through the disco craze -- I doubt I attended a party in college where the music was less than 50% black artists -- and into the mid 80s. Michael Jackson, Prince, Whitney Houston: no white artist doing soul-type music was as popular as any of them. By and large, however, black music was becoming dominated by rap, and the black artists who were popular with mainstream whites in the 80s did not necessarily have the same level of popularity in the mainstream black community. Soul music essentially became a niche white nostalgia taste, and increasingly the artists who made new soul-type music were white.

That is a very gross, inaccurate cut at history, but the basic point is that, with "soul" music, unlike earlier periods (Elvis, The Beatles) or later (Eminem), I don't think it's accurate at all that white audiences favored white artists doing "white" versions of that type of black music. Only a very few white artists had commercial success or popularity commensurate with the most comparable black artists -- the list is probably limited to Hall & Oates and The Bee-Gees.

― Vornado (Vornado), Tuesday, 20 June 2006 12:59 (nineteen years ago)

x-post: otm

didn't we warn you, c?

(ps give me a call)

― trees (treesessplode), Tuesday, 20 June 2006 14:24 (nineteen years ago)

vornado thank you that actually gives me a better idea than I had already of what had happened.
"Soul music essentially became a niche white nostalgia taste, and increasingly the artists who made new soul-type music were white."
I think this was what I was trying to point at, but then again, I really was just trying to find more crap that sounded like Hall&Oates. I never really meant to make any anthropological claims.

― CC (cirgenski), Tuesday, 20 June 2006 15:09 (nineteen years ago)

Fine Young Cannibals into the discussion. Yaz and Erasure.

― slugbuggy (slugbuggy), Tuesday, 20 June 2006 21:50 (nineteen years ago)

ooh yaz

― lf (lfam), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 02:31 (nineteen years ago)

"I really was just trying to find more crap that sounded like Hall&Oates." awwwww. and you are now forgiven your multitude of sins.

― Susan Douglas (Susan Douglas), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 04:18 (nineteen years ago)

good susan

― lf (lfam), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 04:48 (nineteen years ago)

ha ha ha

― trees (treesessplode), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 04:49 (nineteen years ago)

http://www.pure80spop.co.uk/Images/poppics/paulyoung.jpg

― slugbuggy (slugbuggy), Wednesday, 21 June 2006 11:29 (nineteen years ago)

three years pass...

LOL.

― my bach penises and their contrapuntal technique (the table is the table), Tuesday, 1 September 2009 04:01 (sixteen years ago)

Lewis Taylor, The Lost Album.

― Daniel, Esq., Tuesday, 1 September 2009 04:12 (sixteen years ago)

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