Ornette Coleman - Sound Grammar

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Kneel before the greatness, you pitiful worms.

Seriously, I'm only a couple minutes into track two and I know this is probably my album of the year.

― 100% CHAMPS with a Yes! Attitude. (Austin, Still), Friday, 15 September 2006 00:07 (nineteen years ago)

It's fucking tremendous, isn't it? That band live was/is life-changing. I feel genuinely privileged to have seen them twice and had each show be totally different (and not just in a general jazz "it's different every night" way, these were two fundamentally different approaches to the same set of songs, one headlong and berserk, the other meditative and more, I guess, conventionally beautiful).

― pdf (Phil Freeman), Friday, 15 September 2006 00:39 (nineteen years ago)

Fucking Tremendous about covers it. I'm still on the first spin, but the second will come immediately after. That hardly ever happens.

― 100% CHAMPS with a Yes! Attitude. (Austin, Still), Friday, 15 September 2006 00:45 (nineteen years ago)

Whoa, normally it'd take a lot for me to get excited about a new Ornette album, but that's some strong praise from some major jazz douchebags.

― A-ron Hubbard (Hurting), Friday, 15 September 2006 01:43 (nineteen years ago)

Have you heard the new quartet in concert, Hurting? This lp is from a German gig exactly eleven months ago as I type this. I had seen him about a year before that.

― 100% CHAMPS with a Yes! Attitude. (Austin, Still), Friday, 15 September 2006 01:52 (nineteen years ago)

No, haven't. Haven't even been aware of what he was up to for a long time. Who's in it?

― A-ron Hubbard (Hurting), Friday, 15 September 2006 01:53 (nineteen years ago)

Ornette, Denardo, Greg Cohen (picked bass) and Tony Falanga (bowed bass.)

― 100% CHAMPS with a Yes! Attitude. (Austin, Still), Friday, 15 September 2006 01:54 (nineteen years ago)

Come to think of it, I set up a google group for just this kind of occassion...

― 100% CHAMPS with a Yes! Attitude. (Austin, Still), Friday, 15 September 2006 01:57 (nineteen years ago)

Are they playing NYC anytime soon?

― A-ron Hubbard (Hurting), Friday, 15 September 2006 02:00 (nineteen years ago)

wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait.......

THERE'S A NEW ORNETTE ALBUM?!?!?!?!??!?!

holy fucking shit. HOW DID I NOT KNOW THIS? I seriously had no idea. Are american butt-paper wastoids still talking about stupid meaningless english rappers instead of the great living American musician of our time? figures. So, this is the great double-bass/Ornette/Denardo Quartet that I saw two years ago, and was the best concert I have EVER seen?? OMG, yes it is. Buying it tomorrow after work.

― Stormy Davis (diamond), Friday, 15 September 2006 04:21 (nineteen years ago)

and PDF otm. this is one thing I feel we will always always always agree on....

― Stormy Davis (diamond), Friday, 15 September 2006 04:22 (nineteen years ago)

Doesn't come out in the UK until 25 September (WHY THE FECK DID I NOT GET A PROMO?) but I'll definitely be getting this - saw them at the Barbican and they were beyond awe.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 15 September 2006 09:42 (nineteen years ago)

my god! whats it about? hows it happening? all these people whose taste *cough* i like getting exited about this? then i am too. (but i don't fucking know why). tell me more. what was this live experience tht just made you mad for it? can live music still do this? (obv = yes) ...how?

― alderman frank rossi (bulbs), Friday, 15 September 2006 09:51 (nineteen years ago)

Here's what I wrote about Ornette's Carnegie Hall show earlier this year.

― pdf (Phil Freeman), Friday, 15 September 2006 15:03 (nineteen years ago)

I saw this at Tower Records today, but didn't know if I should commit $19 to it.

― Ivan G (Ivan), Friday, 15 September 2006 16:38 (nineteen years ago)

He was on soundcheck today (you can listen here):

http://www.wnyc.org/shows/soundcheck/episodes/2006/09/15

I honestly don't care much for Jon Sch83fer's interview style ("Golly gee, two basses? that's not a normal jazz quartet!") though he sounds like a nice enough guy. I also found Ornette a little unintelligible at times too - he seems to favor very abstract statements.

― A-ron Hubbard (Hurting), Friday, 15 September 2006 23:18 (nineteen years ago)

I thought the interviewer sounded just like Troy McClure, which was incredibly annoying. You're right about some of OC's wierder expressions, though.

― 100% CHAMPS with a Yes! Attitude. (Austin, Still), Saturday, 16 September 2006 02:09 (nineteen years ago)

i believe

― ()()()---()()() (internet), Saturday, 16 September 2006 02:29 (nineteen years ago)

I've listened to "Jordan" 20 times today.

― mcd (mcd), Saturday, 16 September 2006 02:57 (nineteen years ago)

i saw this quartet at carnegie hall in '04 (the only time i've seen ornette play, actually). they were amazing. i suppose that means i should get the album.

― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Saturday, 16 September 2006 04:36 (nineteen years ago)

He was on soundcheck today (you can listen here):

I was about five feet away from him during. so fucking cool. i luv ornette.

― hstencil (hstencil), Saturday, 16 September 2006 05:14 (nineteen years ago)

I should confess that I found "Jordan" a little challenging, though I listen to Ornette all the time. I keep getting more out of it though. Bowed bass as complement to the sax is pretty ingenious.

What a curious interview. I was really hoping to hear an understandable explanation of what "harmolodic" means...

np: Naked Lunch (orig. soundtrack)

― Sundar (sundar), Saturday, 16 September 2006 14:26 (nineteen years ago)

was about five feet away from him during.

Do you work for WNYC now?

― A-ron Hubbard (Hurting), Saturday, 16 September 2006 14:30 (nineteen years ago)

>I was really hoping to hear an understandable explanation of what "harmolodic" means...

There are music journalists who've been hoping that same hope for about 25 years at this point.

― pdf (Phil Freeman), Saturday, 16 September 2006 14:37 (nineteen years ago)

I think it's a sort of vague term that just describes his approach, which is (I guess?) to play without chord changes but to imply "tonal centers" at times (???)

― A-ron Hubbard (Hurting), Saturday, 16 September 2006 16:01 (nineteen years ago)

nope, i was there because someone i work with was being interviewed right after.

― hstencil (hstencil), Saturday, 16 September 2006 17:19 (nineteen years ago)

Definition complicated by Ornette's latter-day habit of describing anything he likes, musical or otherwise, as "very harmolodic."

-- Douglas (il...), February 7th, 2003.

In Harmolodics -- GO!!

― Hoosteen (Hoosteen), Saturday, 16 September 2006 17:28 (nineteen years ago)

would this be an inappropriate place to ask where a dummy might best begin w/ ornette coleman? would this record be wasted on me, for instance, w/o having a foundation in his history?

― philip sherburne (philip sherburne), Saturday, 16 September 2006 18:34 (nineteen years ago)

>would this record be wasted on me, for instance, w/o having a foundation in his history?

No. The influence of Ornette's early music on what came after is sufficient that this new record will sound quite beautiful to any listener.

― pdf (Phil Freeman), Saturday, 16 September 2006 18:40 (nineteen years ago)

No jazz listener should be without, well...most of his stuff. But the (ugh) seminal work is The Shape of Jazz to Come.

― 100% CHAMPS with a Yes! Attitude. (Austin, Still), Saturday, 16 September 2006 18:41 (nineteen years ago)

cool, thanks phil. and thanks for the suggestion, austin. i feel like i've heard that, at one point or another, but obviously insufficiently. will look for both this weekend. wait a minute, i totally forgot that last weekend i picked up a cheap used CD copy of "free jazz: a collective improvisation." dummy me, i'm putting it on now!

― philip sherburne (philip sherburne), Saturday, 16 September 2006 18:48 (nineteen years ago)

I wonder if there's a T/S for "Free Jazz v. Shape of Jazz"? Couldn't find one with the search function.

― Hoosteen (Hoosteen), Saturday, 16 September 2006 22:17 (nineteen years ago)

I'd say get "Shape of Jazz to Come" first, and if you really dig it you could pick up some of his other albums from the same period (I really love "Change of the Century" and "This Is Our Music").

You could go straight to Free Jazz too but just be prepared for the fact that it's considerably more intense than the quartet albums (being that it's a double quartet, and they all blow quite heavy on it)

― A-ron Hubbard (Hurting), Sunday, 17 September 2006 02:35 (nineteen years ago)

the first time i listened to free jazz was real loud on headphones walking through times square and midtown. it was kind of perfect. (would've been better high probably, but oh well.) real city music. i wonder what it would sound like in an open field or at the beach or something.

― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Sunday, 17 September 2006 03:26 (nineteen years ago)

Just popped by to say, yes, "Sound GRammar" is pretty great.

― Christopher Monsen (Le Bob), Sunday, 17 September 2006 19:42 (nineteen years ago)

I'd like to suggest that Dancing In Your Head or Virgin Beauty might also be good starting points, especially if you're coming from a rock or funk background. More modern-sounding and more immediately exciting, at least for me. Groove-oriented, weirdly danceable.

― Sundar (sundar), Sunday, 17 September 2006 22:21 (nineteen years ago)

And this:

I think it's a sort of vague term that just describes his approach, which is (I guess?) to play without chord changes but to imply "tonal centers" at times (???)

just means a kind of modal improvisation, more or less, doesn't it?

― Sundar (sundar), Sunday, 17 September 2006 22:22 (nineteen years ago)

Not exactly. A mode is a specific sequence of notes, a "scale" of sorts. And most of what's called "modal jazz" usually has chord changes. A tune like Lonely Woman does not have chord changes or a specific mode that must be used, but just generally hovers around a D and is more or less minor. Actually there is a specific minor mode sort of implied by the bass part and the melody at the beginning, but the improvisation is not bound by that.

― A-ron Hubbard (Hurting), Monday, 18 September 2006 00:32 (nineteen years ago)

Actually I'm not even sure about the minor mode thing.

― A-ron Hubbard (Hurting), Monday, 18 September 2006 00:33 (nineteen years ago)

Then harmolodics = post-tonal centricity in a jazz context?

― Sundar (sundar), Monday, 18 September 2006 01:05 (nineteen years ago)

I dunno about post-tonal-centricity. I mean what I'm saying is that a lot of Ornette stuff does have an implied tonal center. But The lack of a piano or chordal instrument allows a much wider variety of harmonic relationships between the bass and the soloist than a chord-based or even modal tune. But I'm kind of talking out of my ass as to whether this is what "harmolodic" actually means.

― A-ron Hubbard (Hurting), Monday, 18 September 2006 01:09 (nineteen years ago)

Philip, I third Shape. First album that got me into jazz, the song "Lonely Woman" alone. Also, if you hit me over email, I can get you quite a few of his. I have quite a few.

― regular roundups (Dave M), Monday, 18 September 2006 01:33 (nineteen years ago)

shape of jazz to come is the one that got me into the early 60's stuff after a few frustrated tries at free jazz. beautiful melodies with impossible details.

the turn into 70's wrong-funk though: dancing in your head, there's no time to scratch your head all puzzled after every note in every solo, but you want to. and the one after, body meta, great.

naked lunch soundtrack is wonderful too, I love the songs on science fiction sessions, and I keep going back to the orchestral piece skies of america which takes patience but pays off big when it does

― milton parker (Jon L), Monday, 18 September 2006 02:41 (nineteen years ago)

Who's the trumpet on "Jordan"?

― mcd (mcd), Monday, 18 September 2006 18:26 (nineteen years ago)

I can't wait to hear this, thanks to the thread for reminding me--the live MP3s on Destination Out are tremendous, so this should be really good.

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Monday, 18 September 2006 18:36 (nineteen years ago)

Shape of Jazz to Come is indeed a great intro to Ornette's world - but I wld also suggest the two live Blue Note Golden Circle albs as a pleasing alternative - their so melodic and charming and full of light and fire, i can't imagine any not listening not liking em

― Ward Fowler (Ward Fowler), Monday, 18 September 2006 18:47 (nineteen years ago)

That's what Sound Grammar is reminding me of - the Golden Circles.

― mcd (mcd), Monday, 18 September 2006 18:50 (nineteen years ago)

(I think we're on the same page, Hurting. I've just been reading about [classical] post-tonal theory recently and am thinking in those terms. But, yeah, having a pitch centre in music that's not otherwise based on traditional tonal or modal relationships. In compositional music, there are usually all kinds of systems/calculations/etc involved when trying to do this so I'd be interested in what's involved in the improvisational version. Listening, mostly?)

Just ordered the album.

― Sundar (sundar), Monday, 18 September 2006 18:56 (nineteen years ago)

Yeah, I would think it was mainly listening, plus, at least in the earlier stuff, a certain amount of prior experience with the musical "language" of jazz.

― A-ron Hubbard (Hurting), Monday, 18 September 2006 19:39 (nineteen years ago)

I guess it's also that the improvisations are based on melodic fragments ('hooks' or 'riffs') and treat these as the frame of reference instead of a set of chord changes?

― Sundar (sundar), Monday, 18 September 2006 19:52 (nineteen years ago)

the live MP3s on Destination Out are tremendous

does anyone have these? i missed them :-( i have heard a couple of good shows from 04/05, so i'm very much looking forward to hearing this.

― toby (tsg20), Monday, 18 September 2006 20:22 (nineteen years ago)

They're worth tracking down, especially the rearrangement of "Lonely Woman," which is totally gorgeous.

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Monday, 18 September 2006 20:24 (nineteen years ago)

No one except the four mentioned upthread are credited on Sound Grammar, so any trumpet has got to be Ornette hisownbadself.

― 100% CHAMPS with a Yes! Attitude. (Austin, Still), Monday, 18 September 2006 21:11 (nineteen years ago)

They're worth tracking down, especially the rearrangement of "Lonely Woman," which is totally gorgeous.

wow, you're not wrong! tracked them down, and i've been listening to the version of "lonely woman" on repeat ever since. i don't suppose anyone's seen the whole show anywhere?

i also found his carnegie show from 04, which i'm going to have a listen to now. i had no idea he was still making such great music!

― toby (tsg20), Tuesday, 19 September 2006 12:36 (nineteen years ago)

any trumpet has got to be Ornette hisownbadself.

This appears to be the case. It definitely sounds like him playing the trumpet, now that you mention it. Awesome.

― mcd (mcd), Tuesday, 19 September 2006 17:56 (nineteen years ago)

Who's the trumpet on "Jordan"?

It's Ornette, isn't it?

xpost

― Jordan (Jordan), Tuesday, 19 September 2006 18:28 (nineteen years ago)

Oops.

(he should stick to sax)

― Jordan (Jordan), Tuesday, 19 September 2006 18:30 (nineteen years ago)

C'mon... Next you're going to tell me you don't like his violin playing!

― mcd (mcd), Thursday, 21 September 2006 14:26 (nineteen years ago)

I'm 0/3 for finding this in a record store. Indie stores, too.

― Josh in Chicago (Josh in Chicago), Thursday, 21 September 2006 16:12 (nineteen years ago)

Me too. Though, it's available from Amazon and iTunes has it for d/l.

― mcd (mcd), Thursday, 21 September 2006 16:34 (nineteen years ago)

I just had an idea that Ornette could promote this by showing up on people's doorsteps and doing Sound Grammar "Sound-o-grams"

Too much coffee, obv.

― A-ron Hubbard (Hurting), Thursday, 21 September 2006 16:36 (nineteen years ago)

Josh, they have it at the Tower in the loop. I went, but ... blanched at the *$18.99* sticker price. ouch. I'm just gonna order from Amazon and try to combine with some other stuff for free shipping.

― Stormy Davis (diamond), Thursday, 21 September 2006 16:38 (nineteen years ago)

I paid $19 plus tax at 'End of an Ear!' Dare you do any less?!

― 100% CHAMPS with a Yes! Attitude. (Austin, Still), Thursday, 21 September 2006 16:58 (nineteen years ago)

What are the other tracks (besides Jordan) like rhythmically? Free, funk, swing?

― Jordan (Jordan), Thursday, 21 September 2006 17:31 (nineteen years ago)

Josh, they have it at the Tower in the loop. I went, but ... blanched at the *$18.99* sticker price. ouch. I'm just gonna order from Amazon and try to combine with some other stuff for free shipping.

-- Stormy Davis (electrifyingmoj...), September 21st, 2006 12:38 PM.

Yeah, same place I checked.

― Ivan G (Ivan), Thursday, 21 September 2006 17:45 (nineteen years ago)

Ornette in Friday's NYTimes (I'm assuming this is also in the print edition): Seeking the Mystical Inside the Music — OC on other people's music, and his own.

I haven't gotten the album yet, so I can't comment, other than to agree that the trumpet (and fiddle) should be mothballed.

― mark 0 (mark 0), Friday, 22 September 2006 22:14 (nineteen years ago)

CHAMPS, they have it at EOE? I didn't see it in the New Arrivals e-mail or I would have been kicking down the door the day of its release! Dammitall.

― Hoosteen (Hoosteen), Friday, 22 September 2006 22:36 (nineteen years ago)

I would never falsify such important information. Not to guarantee they haven't sold out their stock by now, natch.

― 100% CHAMPS with a Yes! Attitude. (Austin, Still), Saturday, 23 September 2006 04:11 (nineteen years ago)

phillip: body meta as champed by milton. just...just...fuck

― alderman frank rossi (bulbs), Saturday, 23 September 2006 07:34 (nineteen years ago)

three weeks pass...

I order this thing and it shipped THREE friggin' weeks ago. Some bad postal worker is grooving out to some free jazz somewhere, I know it.

― Jim M (jmcgaw), Tuesday, 17 October 2006 17:31 (nineteen years ago)

SO, SO GOOD.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Thursday, 26 October 2006 16:52 (nineteen years ago)

five months pass...

[Removed Illegal Link].

― unperson, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:22 (nineteen years ago)

Ornette wins a Pulitzer:

http://www.pulitzer.org/year/2007/music

― unperson, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:22 (nineteen years ago)

Fuck a grammy.

― Oilyrags, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:30 (nineteen years ago)

Sound Grammy

― Jordan, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:38 (nineteen years ago)

FUCK YOU "ASTRAL CANTICLE" BY AUGUSTA READ THOMAS!

― Whiney G. Weingarten, Monday, 16 April 2007 21:48 (nineteen years ago)

Hurray. So great.

Also, a moment of thought for Duke Ellington.

― If Timi Yuro would be still alive, most other singers could shut up, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 00:33 (nineteen years ago)

Hurrah for Ornette!

Now if only he'd play Austin again.

― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 00:48 (nineteen years ago)

Dude, we just had William Parker! (which, uh, I missed)

― Oilyrags, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 02:25 (nineteen years ago)

http://www.epistrophyarts.org/

BOOKMARK THIS SHIT, HOOS!

― Oilyrags, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 02:28 (nineteen years ago)

Yes, Ellington - "Fate's being kind to me," he remarked after being turned down for the Pulitzer, "Fate doesn't want me to be too famous too soon."

Still at least Ornette (at the ripe old age of 77) finally got it so YAY!

― Marcello Carlin, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 08:41 (nineteen years ago)

DUDE I WAS SO ANGRY I MISSED PARKER

― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 08:50 (nineteen years ago)

Thanks to Pedro I've caught him a bunch of times in different ways, but yeah, it's always a drag to miss a guy like that.

Much as I love the stuff Epistrophy Arts books, it does tend to be the same group of people over and over, so I'm less certain to see every show of theirs now than I was five years ago.

― Oilyrags, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 13:18 (nineteen years ago)

Apparently this is the first Pulitzer Prize-winning album I've ever owned.

― Jazzbo, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 13:28 (nineteen years ago)

six months pass...

great show last night - three bassists(!) a pretty broad range of material, wide variety of sonic textures and recognizable riffs and melodies, which kinda surprised me

― Shakey Mo Collier, Monday, 29 October 2007 19:05 (eighteen years ago)

Any idea who the other saxophonist was?

― These Robust Cookies, Monday, 29 October 2007 20:46 (eighteen years ago)

I was hoping someone here knew... also couldn't identify that other instrument he had (neither could the soundguys, apparently)

― Shakey Mo Collier, Monday, 29 October 2007 20:50 (eighteen years ago)

That was a fantastic show! I may be out of my mind, but I thought the band veered into Wetton-era King Crimson territory occasionally (the last song they played before the encores sounded like The Talking Drum). Also, Denardo Coleman is a fucking amazing drummer. I don't understand why he takes shit critically.

No idea who the tenor player was, but I think the other instrument was a musette (which Dewey Redman occasionally played).
Wikipedia led me to this-
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e1/Salmaj.jpg
the Shawm
http://houstonearlymusic.org/hemarchive/archive/9697/pif08s.jpg

― Sparkle Motion, Monday, 29 October 2007 22:10 (eighteen years ago)

yeah there were definitely some prog-rock shades at times - mostly due to the bassist w/the pedals and the other electric bass player (that sounded like a five-string to me...? I thought I heard him hitting notes that were way above a 4-string bass's range)

― Shakey Mo Collier, Monday, 29 October 2007 22:18 (eighteen years ago)

also enjoyed that they began every song the exact same way (frenetic playing of the head - stop on a dime/wait a beat - repeat phrase - off to solos)

― Shakey Mo Collier, Monday, 29 October 2007 22:19 (eighteen years ago)

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