Saul Bellow RIP

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http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/ae/books/news/3119674

j blount (papa la bas), Tuesday, 5 April 2005 22:03 (twenty years ago)

augie march changed my life, herzog i turn to in difficult times the way some people turn to the bible i guess, those two + seize the day probably make any shortlist of favorite books i'd make. the only other ones i've read are dangling man, henderson, and mr. sammler's planet. what do i have to check out? (feel free to suggest other authors if you want, frinstance i've *gasp* never read philip roth - definitely mustread for people who like bellow?)

j blount (papa la bas), Tuesday, 5 April 2005 22:06 (twenty years ago)

read 'humbolt's gift'?

(I did a thread on ile abt a year ago, I have a copy of it but never got round to it)

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Tuesday, 5 April 2005 22:11 (twenty years ago)

oops, its 'humboldt's gift'

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Tuesday, 5 April 2005 22:15 (twenty years ago)

i've only ever managed to finish "The Victim" but i do (and shall) keep on trying. A Huge Loss. R.I.P.

jed_ (jed), Tuesday, 5 April 2005 22:34 (twenty years ago)

The Victim is not supposed to be one of his better novels -- it's before Augie March, which is considered his breakthrough. I recommend reading Seize the Day or Humboldt's Gift.

Hurting (Hurting), Tuesday, 5 April 2005 23:43 (twenty years ago)

the collected stories. you need to read those too.

scott seward (scott seward), Wednesday, 6 April 2005 01:23 (twenty years ago)

From the NY Times obit:

During his service, he finished writing "Dangling Man," about the alienation of a young Chicagoan waiting to be drafted. It was published in 1944, before the author was 30, and was followed by "The Victim," a novel about anti-Semitism that was written, he said, under the influence of Dostoyevsky. Mr. Bellow later called these novels his "M.A. and Ph.D." They were apprentice work, he believed, finely written but weak in plot and too much in thrall to European models.

Hurting (Hurting), Wednesday, 6 April 2005 01:38 (twenty years ago)

Sorry if I'm haranguing this point a little too much, but I love Bellow, and I'd hate for anyone to be turned off by the wrong book.

Hurting (Hurting), Wednesday, 6 April 2005 01:39 (twenty years ago)

yeah that actually happened to me - i read 'dangling man' first, thought i was very good but wasn't crazy about it and didn't understand 'what the big deal with bellow is'. a few years later i read augie march and understood.

j blount (papa la bas), Wednesday, 6 April 2005 02:22 (twenty years ago)

A sad loss, and I shall try again to wade through the Augie Marsh, but I ph34r the inevitable Amis obituary.

Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Wednesday, 6 April 2005 08:48 (twenty years ago)

I know Bellow regarded it as an apprentice work, but I actually really liked 'The Victim', and have had a harder time with his more 'classic' works.

Jonathan Z. (Joanthan Z.), Wednesday, 6 April 2005 08:53 (twenty years ago)

BTW - where is the love for 'Herzog'? That is the only of his that I really found compelling.

Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Wednesday, 6 April 2005 09:09 (twenty years ago)

Hurting i liked "The Victim" quite a bit, all of his other books are somewhat impenetrable to me but i'll keep on trying!

jed_ (jed), Wednesday, 6 April 2005 09:45 (twenty years ago)

I read the one about the bloke pretending to be a lion.

PJ Miller (PJ Miller), Wednesday, 6 April 2005 11:56 (twenty years ago)

I am amused and touched by the utter co-incidence of JtN's first fearful thought and my own. Especially after Experience spends much of its time going quite tediously on about how SB is dying, only for him to revive in the last act.

the bell...fox, Wednesday, 6 April 2005 14:01 (twenty years ago)

Augie March is a great book, and certainly my favourite, although if Saul Bellow was only to be remembered for this it would be a disservice to him (but a great deal more than many fashionable writers could aspire to, if you understand me).

I'm not happy about a comparison between Bellow and Roth, since I'd regard Roth as certainly the inferior writer. How about Bellow and Updike?

andyjack (andyjack), Wednesday, 6 April 2005 14:12 (twenty years ago)

I get them muddled up, if that is indicative of anything other than my defective BRANE.

PJ Miller (PJ Miller), Wednesday, 6 April 2005 15:35 (twenty years ago)

Would Herzog be a good one to start with? I'm thinking of getting it tonight.

Jordan (Jordan), Wednesday, 6 April 2005 16:34 (twenty years ago)

I'd start with Augie. That's the one I started with. I think it's a bit easier to get into than Herzog.

o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 6 April 2005 18:22 (twenty years ago)

There's also an ILE thread:

Saul Bellow RIP

o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 6 April 2005 18:36 (twenty years ago)

I'm one of the people who liked the early books. I liked Augie March too, but found the later ones to be heavy going.

Ken L (Ken L), Wednesday, 6 April 2005 19:35 (twenty years ago)

there is a little more here:

Sorting out Bellow

scott seward (scott seward), Wednesday, 6 April 2005 20:08 (twenty years ago)

thanks!

j blount (papa la bas), Thursday, 7 April 2005 01:46 (twenty years ago)

Although it's brilliant in its own right, Paula Fox's "Desperate Characters" can be read like a companion piece to its contemporary, "Mr Sammler's Planet".

Also, Cynthia Ozick shares some significant aspects with Bellow.

Harthill Services (Neil Willett), Thursday, 7 April 2005 06:44 (twenty years ago)

Have you been keeping this frequency clear? If so, the wait is over:

"[Bellow's] pre-eminence rests not on sales figures and honorary degrees, not on rosettes and sashes, but on incontestable legitimacy. To hold otherwise is to waste your breath. Bellow sees more than we see - sees, hears, smells, tastes, touches… Bellow will emerge as the supreme American novelist. The only American who gives Bellow any serious trouble is Henry James."
Martin Amis

I'm sure there will be more to look forward to, but that's not a bad start, is it?

It is from the Daily Telegraph.

PJ Miller (PJ Miller), Thursday, 7 April 2005 11:06 (twenty years ago)

"The only American who gives Bellow any serious trouble is Henry James."

hahaha! I just flashed on an image of Henry James with Saul Bellow in a headlock.

scott seward (scott seward), Thursday, 7 April 2005 11:57 (twenty years ago)

Um, but anyway, Martin Amis really really likes Saul Bellow. Really he does.

scott seward (scott seward), Thursday, 7 April 2005 11:58 (twenty years ago)

To hold otherwise is to waste your breath!

Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Thursday, 7 April 2005 12:04 (twenty years ago)

Um, but anyway, Martin Amis really really likes Saul Bellow. Really he does.
I think we discussed this recently on the Martin Amis thread, but I didn't realize how extreme it really was.

Ken L (Ken L), Thursday, 7 April 2005 12:06 (twenty years ago)

I am disturbed by the assumption that holding a view involves the expenditure of breath.

PJ Miller (PJ Miller), Thursday, 7 April 2005 13:53 (twenty years ago)

I think I may have made a mistake.

Such buffoonery ill becomes me.

To hold = to claim.

Silly Stringbender!

PJ Miller (PJ Miller), Thursday, 7 April 2005 14:01 (twenty years ago)

Here's a blog post that has some info about Bellow's time at the University of Minnesota. I talked to a guy today who worked with him in the '50s, but didn't know him very well.

http://babelogue.citypages.com:8080/ctg/

dylan (dylan), Friday, 8 April 2005 01:24 (twenty years ago)

http://slate.msn.com/id/2000208/entry/1006284/

I read the chapter on Bellow and Chicago from Brent Staples's memoir a while back, and I just found this on slate.com from 2000-- an exchange between him and A.O. Scott about the Bellow biography. Scott's part isn't so fascinating, but Staples has some personal experience with Bellow and the millieu surrounding him at U. Chicago. He also deals with Bellow's sometimes questionable racial depictions.

Hurting (Hurting), Friday, 8 April 2005 03:33 (twenty years ago)

Staples' part of that exchange was depressingly literal-minded and dare I say it, politically correct to a fault. Novelists draw material from their own lives, you say? Relatives of writers have mixed feelings about how they're portrayed in the books? Shocking! He holds Bellow's work to an absurd and hypocritical standard, these are novels not memoirs or works of non-fiction in disguise. The guest appearance by Katha Politt just ices the cake.

m coleman (lovebug starski), Friday, 8 April 2005 09:28 (twenty years ago)

I'd start with Augie. That's the one I started with. I think it's a bit easier to get into than Herzog.

This is so opposite to my own experience (started with Herzog, liked it: read a couple of others (Dean's December, Ravelstein) liked them moderately (DD more than R); read Augie, loathed it.

I suspect this is a question of temperament as much as taste. Insofar as the two books are difficult they represent different kinds of difficulty. Herzog is set in a rarified world and presumes more knowledge on the part of the reader. That doesn't bother me too much: you can always look things up. Augie is set in an earthier, more everyday world but liberally spattered with tortuous, knotty sentences that reveal their meaning slowly if at all.

I once posted one particularly opaque paragraph from Augie to a literary forum and invited posters to explain what they thought it meant: no-one (and some posters were big fans of the novel) was prepared even to attempt it. I just think this bothers some readers more than others: for some it's a minor blemish that doesn't significantly detract from their experience of reading the book, for others it's just too damn frustrating reading a paragraph a dozen times only to realise the reason they haven't got the meaning is because there's probably no comprehensible meaning to be got.

frankiemachine, Friday, 8 April 2005 09:34 (twenty years ago)

xpost I think Staples was suggesting that Bellow's loved ones had a little worse than "mixed feelings" about the way they were portrayed. And since the discussion is on Bellow's Biography, why shouldn't this be a topic of conversation?

Frankie -- do you still have the paragraph you posted?

Hurting (Hurting), Friday, 8 April 2005 13:32 (twenty years ago)

xpost I'm also not sure what makes it "politically correct"? Staples hardly harps on the race issue, he just brings it up -- and it should be brought up.

Hurting (Hurting), Friday, 8 April 2005 13:36 (twenty years ago)

Hurting I could probably find it if I could find my copy of the book but I've moved since I read it & I'm not the type to have my books neatly displayed in alphabetical order. So finding the book would be the problem. I'll have a look & if it comes easily to hand I'll post the para.

frankiemachine, Friday, 8 April 2005 14:58 (twenty years ago)

x post

Hurting my problem w/Staples is that he's not discussing the biography he's reviewing the life from a warped perspective, based on his casual observation of Bellow at graduate school. This entire exercise -- evaluating Bellows' fiction by comparing his characterizations to Staples' perceptions of their real-life counterparts -- strikes me as preposterous, and utterly self-serving. Aren't all ficition writers are "cannibals" who "use their lives as a literary chop shop" to some extent? If Staples had any cojones he would've confronted Bellow on the the race thing rather than stalk him -- but then some kind of discussion/debate would have ensued and Brent wouldn't have been able to project his own racial paranoia onto Saul.

And I'd say dropping "And oh, by the way, yes, I am black" into the second paragraph begins a lengthy and tedious race-harping recital.

m coleman (lovebug starski), Saturday, 9 April 2005 10:49 (twenty years ago)

My Bellow tribute will be published in Piedepagina, Bogota Columbia's premier literary journal!

Momus (Momus), Sunday, 10 April 2005 08:26 (twenty years ago)

A piece on Slate written by one of Bellow's former editors with some juicy inside information on his involvement in the editing process:

http://www.slate.com/id/2116502/

o. nate (onate), Tuesday, 12 April 2005 19:22 (twenty years ago)

Here's what became of the above blog post on Bellow in Minnesota:

http://citypages.com/databank/26/1271/article13191.asp

dylan (dylan), Wednesday, 13 April 2005 04:24 (twenty years ago)


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