Whither third-person narration?

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Do most books not have extended third person narration (e.g. beyond "Later..." or "Moscow") nowadays? When there is extensive narration, it's almost all first person -- when/why did this shift happen?

― Leeeter van den Hoogenband (Leee), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 22:06 (twenty-one years ago)

I dunno exactly, but I can tell you that when I went to sleep (so far as comics were concerned) in 1994 there was third person narration a-plenty. When I woke up in 2002, it was gone, even from the most purple of proseurs, Alan Moore.

I think a lot of it has to do with the whole widescreen/cinematic comic phenomena, where one medium does its best to bite the cool of another and try to pass itself off as something that it's not. When exactly did that sort of thing start happening, anyways?

― Matt Maxwell (Matt M.), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 22:11 (twenty-one years ago)

It was when people realised that you don't need narration in comics cos there are pictures to tell you what's happening. Even first person narration is fairly minimal these days. If it's included it will quite often be an excerpt from a journal or a letter.

― Wooden (Wooden), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 22:13 (twenty-one years ago)

i think adrian tomine still does it

― cinniblount (James Blount), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 22:23 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm pretty sure Stan Lee still used it in the Just Imagine comics, but the only one I read was Batman. And it might just be that I have trouble imagining a Stan Lee comic without it.

(Not that Stan is in any way a counter argument to the prevailing trend, of course.)

― Tep (ktepi), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 22:28 (twenty-one years ago)

The only recent comic I can think of that makes good use of the third person is Enigma.

― Wooden (Wooden), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 22:29 (twenty-one years ago)

I liked the 3rd-person narration in Eightball (you know, the issue with the superhero stuff).

― Jordan (Jordan), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 22:57 (twenty-one years ago)

Best 3rd-person narration EVER: the "Meanwhile..." that opens Gilbert Hernandez' "BEM."

― the apex of nadirs (Rock Hardy), Thursday, 18 November 2004 02:51 (twenty-one years ago)

I think we can blame Moore and Miller for the disappearance of third-person narration in American comics (European and Japanese comics never used it much), since both were quite clearly against it when they made their big splash in the eighties. Gaiman has still used it occasionally, hasn't he?

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Thursday, 18 November 2004 13:12 (twenty-one years ago)

Er, Moore's Swamp Thing is pretty heavy on third-party narration.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Thursday, 18 November 2004 13:17 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, but Watchmen has none and V for Vendetta only a little in the beginning.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Thursday, 18 November 2004 13:20 (twenty-one years ago)

After Swamp Thing, has Moore used third person at all? I'm not familiar with the titles he's done after From Hell.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Thursday, 18 November 2004 13:22 (twenty-one years ago)

Swamp Thing and Miracleman are the only Moore comics I can think of to use third person. I've read interviews where he's expressed embarrasment at the purpleness of the prose in Swamp Thing.

― Wooden (Wooden), Thursday, 18 November 2004 14:03 (twenty-one years ago)

See, this is what I don't get. Comics can play with the tools of both movies and novels (though comics are neither). Why the fuck are writer so afraid of the text side of things? Possible audience alienation? Doubting their own skills? What?

― Matt Maxwell (Matt M.), Thursday, 18 November 2004 17:59 (twenty-one years ago)

Audience alienation, I think. "Comics aren't just for kids anymore" seems to have weirdly resulted in a dislike of words in comics.

― Tep (ktepi), Thursday, 18 November 2004 18:04 (twenty-one years ago)

I guess most writers are only playing on the strengths of comics. As someone noted, in the olden times the third-person narrator just told things that were or could've been shown in the pictures. The basic rule of comics scripting: if you can do it with pictures, don't use words. I guess there's still plenty of creative ways to use third-person in a way that it compliments (or contradicts with) the pictures, but few writers do that.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Thursday, 18 November 2004 18:17 (twenty-one years ago)

in the olden olden days (cf this unaccoubtably overlooked thread: the death of the parallel narrative ), the third person narrator told you lots of stuff that DIDN'T get put in the picture, just like voiceovers in films do today

― mark s (mark s), Thursday, 18 November 2004 18:24 (twenty-one years ago)

I just remembered that Morrison played with third person quite a bit in The Invisibles, but then I don't think there was a storytelling technique which WASN'T explored in The Invisibles.

I generally think the current trend against narration in comics is no bad thing; it certainly shows a higher awareness for the mechanics of the medium then the Silver Age practice of stating the bleeding obvious: "As our Fantastic Foursome travel deeper into the dark watery realm they are beset by many strange and fabulous creatures! Suddenly THE SUB-MARINER master of the ABYSSAL DEPTHS appears!" I'm sure that as the comic book continues to mature more writers will figure out ways to reintroduce narration in creative, appropriate ways (Dave Sim's surely done a lot of the groundwork for this).

― Wooden (Wooden), Thursday, 18 November 2004 19:00 (twenty-one years ago)

Of course, beating-the-reader-over-the-head narration is bad (unless it's able to create tension between what's said and what's shown). It's possible to use any technique badly.

One thing that has happened with decompression is that authors get a chance to show and don't have to tell the reader about events. Of course, that means that sometimes things seem really draggy (particularly if they love the sound of their own dialogue), so narration isn't nearly as necessary as it once was.

And yes, this subject is weighing heavy on my mind as I desperately try to avoid the last fifteen pages of a script I'm working on because those pages may indeed not be necessary, but finding seven to cut without really working at it (and destroying any semblance of pacing the third act) is hard. Of course, I'm not using any third person narration either, so I'm one of those very writers I'm railing against...

― Matt Maxwell (Matt M.), Thursday, 18 November 2004 20:24 (twenty-one years ago)

I still stick to my golden rule: if you can tell it with pictures, don't use words. If you can't, then it's okay to use them. Sure, the third-person narrative often described things that happened outside the pictures, but a lot of those things could've just as easily been told inside them. There's nothing in a comic more likely to scare me away than if it's too loaded with text.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Friday, 19 November 2004 09:54 (twenty-one years ago)

it just occurred to me that early comics w.explanation panels conincided with SILENT movies (which also had explanation panels!), and that once talkies arrived the explanation panels began to vanish!! (or get smaller anyway)

(obv i am still thinking more abt rupert bear and tiger tim than batman)

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 19 November 2004 13:08 (twenty-one years ago)

i think adrian tomine still does it

no way, Tomine is the monster king of first-person narration, the better to enable reader identifcation with the emotional plight of his wussy emo boys and girl protagonists

― kit brash (kit brash), Saturday, 20 November 2004 01:35 (twenty-one years ago)

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