late bloomer

About the other thing, don't worry. When I was in school I wasn't interested in having a relationship with anyone I met there, mostly because I thought the boys were immature, and had little shared interests with them. But I like men, not boys. And wasn't really into the kind of man who would chase after someone as young as me. When I stopped feeling like I was too young for a relationship, it wasn't long before I started one.

(DANIEL and his friends CARLOS and TIAGO are sitting at a table, enjoying their cocktails and listening to the house band blurt out Lenny Kravitz songs. As always, TIAGO is informing us on the latest in a long line of failed relationships that he's had)

CARLOS: Your problem is you fall in love every week! You don't even know what the fuck "love" is- just look at Daniel! He doesn't go on stupid doomed from the get-go relationships: he's waiting for the right one to come along, and until that he's just cool and relaxed. You'll never make it if you're so neurotic about it!"

DANIEL (to himself): Hahaha, little does the FULE know that the reason I haven't had any relationships yet is less down to my "coolness" or desire to "wait for the right one" than to my utter incapability of dealing with the opposite sex in a romantic/flirtatious manner!

So Melissa, be proud of yr lack of relationships, as apparently it is a sign of coolness and maturity! :)

Re: "Age Ain't Nuthin' But A Number"...how does "goin' down ain't nuthin' but a thang" figure in this radical re-interpretation of the song?

''my utter incapability of dealing with the opposite sex in a romantic/flirtatious manner!''

as far as relationships: absolutely nothing! and the reason for that is pretty much the same as daniel's.

but, what i got from a kind of similar thread earlier in the week, you have to make an effort really.

(which changes everything, esp Ease of getting out of it)

It doesn't really bother me too much, as I don't plan on ever getting married (useless legal gesture), but yeah, it can be frustrating to see how easily this stuff seems to come to most people. And it's lonely.

And I agree with everyone else, as soon as you've gotten into a relationship, it will quickly become a non-issue. Kind of like how alcohol is in high school.

Drunk friends are much more entertaining than friends in a relationship, tho...

Some of my oldest friends never have relationships, and it's certainly not always the case that they couldn't. I think of one man who is tall, sexy, brilliant, funny and everyone loves him, but he's had nothing you'd call a relationship in the 20 years I've known him. People are different, and not everyone should even dream of fitting into the societal norms.

I know we all feel those pressures, though. I'm just meaning to encourage Justyn, Melissa and so on to go as easy as possible on themselves, and find their own ways to make themselves happy, rather than thinking they should conform.

Well, my friend situation is sort of weird. I have quite a few "good acquaintances" I suppose. Through Radiohead and the internet I've made quite a few of these. But that's it... People I meet once or twice and email once every few months.
There are people around here I'd call friends just because I don't have a better word for them, but honestly they're not even people I like all that much or have even seen in the past two years.
When I want someone to turn to, or even just someone to see a movie with or go to a concert with... I have no one.
I don't know that this is any fault of my own. It could be, I'm not sure. I'm not the friendliest of people, perhaps, and I do enjoy time spent alone (to a degree). But I don't feel unsociable. The times when I've been in more social situations, I have really enjoyed it. I'm not a shy mouse, either.

The one thing I'm able to hide in pictures is just how obese I am. To those who think I am exaggerating, I am 215 lbs. at 5'3" (um, about 15 stone at 160 cm).
I'm not saying this is the only reason for my single status, but it's certainly a contributing factor. Half because guys aren't attracted, half because it makes me feel unattractive and act accordingly.

I mean, like other people have been saying, this stuff doesn't come easy--but the more happy & confident you are with yourself _by_ yourself, the easier it gets (and the less size matters). Like Louis Pasteur said, chance favors the prepared mind.

One suggestion I would give you: the first person you have a sexual experience with should be someone _you_ ask, rather than someone who asks you first.

a more general point: while there is a certain "objective" quality to attractiveness, a lot of it is "subjective", as in if you decide you are attractive you become attractive.

another general point: there are lots of large attractive women, so I wouldn't worry about the weight thing.

yet another general point: having no experience of the opposite sex at age 19 is nothing to be ashamed of. Well, I'm not ashamed of it anyway, although I was when I was 19.

we all like to congratulate ourselves that we THINK that looks don't matter, but the sad fact is that they do, and if someone doesn't fancy you, they just don't fancy you and there's no way back from that.

correct, nathalie?

well, yes and no. i do think looks matter, both to me and other people. but the thing is, which aspect of looks? its a broad category. the thing in appearance people focus on negatively about themselves is often irrelevant to someone else, they like something else about that person

B-b-but Douglas what if she's that person's first person too - nothing would ever happen unless they asked simultaneously :)

Marcello and Nathalie are both right - attraction is attraction and there's nothing we can do about it, but what is/isn't "attractive" varies per individual; the image of "attractiveness" the media presents is a best-fit designed to turn OFF as few people as possible. Plenty of people fancy bigger women - the problem is that a lot of those will either ignore anything else about them or expect them to be grateful for it.

it's all secondary though. the essential decision is made five seconds after they've first clapped eyes on you. either they like you or they don't. but of course what's fanciable to some is unfanciable to others. and regardless of how much you have in common, or how well you communicate in writing or over the 'phone, there's nothing as deflating as those first five seconds when they approach you. they might still smile but the smile doesn't spread to their eyes; you can smell their disappointment a mile off. and once that's happened, nothing will ever put it right.

i speak as someone to whom this has happened several times this year.

Weight only plays a small part because fitness and food are important to me and too skinny or too fat or too muscly or too flabby mean not the sort of fitness and food I'm into - which means for those who don't 'fit my criteria' probably I don't fit theirs either.

The worry of being a late bloomer I can relate to and there are no easy solutions. I've developed shyness in the last few years and it is hard to overcome. I feel very awkward socially and am not good at small-talk. I'm planning to drink lots of alcohol over summer to solve this. Sadly this probably means stacking back on the 10kg I just lost (= lots of pounds). Dammit.

yes, but one of those things will be "mmm, bit overweight", but another will be "pretty face" and another could be "pleasant personality" or whatever. And it does depend how highly the individual values not being overweight.

I mean, it is basic fact that not everyone fancies the same people, as I know only too well.

I'd like to think that isn't the case. is that all a human being gets? oh no! oh no!!!

Yeah, quite often people grow on me.

Can I just point out I'm not saying that everyone bases their attraction to the Other on supermodel/whatever grounds. All I'm saying is that within the first five seconds, either the Other fancies you or they don't fancy you, regardless of their personal idea of attractiveness - that's just how it works. And it's avoiding the issue to pretend otherwise (character, common interests, blah blah) because At The End Of The Day it comes down to whether you want to fuck them or not, and our primary basis for judging that is their looks.

All I'm saying is that within the first five seconds, either the Other fancies you or they don't fancy you, regardless of their personal idea of attractiveness - that's just how it works.

Marcello, much as I love biologically proven FACTS, what do you say to me, who has many times in the past ended up fancying the pants off people who at first I just thought 'no - don't fancy, just friends' about? Am I not humanoid?

A friend of mine reckons that people subconsciously rate themselves on an attractiveness scale of say, 10, and end up going out with people who they think are rated a point higher than they are themselves. Too high and they don't try, lower and they don't fancy them. It sort of assumes that there's a semi-objective scale of attractiveness, which *really* I think there is.

That's why I reckon, no matter how much you think you're in love with someone, if they don't reciprocate then it's infatuation (involving alabaster & pedestals), not love.

I definitely know within 5 seconds whether I'm interested or not.

I'm not saying you're wrong Marcello, I'm just saying that IRL this truth has little practical application outside the pressure-situations because most of the time people can't tell whether or not other people fancy them. And a lot of the time people don't know themselves that well. The 5-seconds thing results in a "No" or a "Yes" but very often an "I wouldn't say no", filed off in the subconscious. Now you can argue that this counts in the "Yes" department, and fine it does, but that's where practicality starts breaking down.

But N, presumably these people were just 'around' for a while and you were never put on the spot to decide?

I tend to agree with Nick, it's more complicated than simple.

Thanks for that DV. Now I understand.

(I do agree with Tom's description of the 'I wouldn't say no' subconscious pending tray)

stop living my life n!

(heh this is not supposed to be related to Andrew's posting)

But N, presumably these people were just 'around' for a while and you were never put on the spot to decide?

What does being 'put on the spot' involve exactly?

Hey, maybe Nicky and I are just special.

I was waiting for someone to post something like this.

Unfortunately it wasn't some kind of hot-or-not thing :(

as if i would ever trust anything oprah said!

Ah, well this never happens to me. In a less or more subconscious way, I automatically sexually size up every woman I meet. As Tom once wisely said, even with friends who it would be embarrassing to admit this to now.

IE any two people.

"people give up on ME. so i've given up on the whole thing for now."

But are you really sure that they're giving up on you?
I'd say that lurking's the best thing to do until you're feeling stronger. But please don't lurk forever in a Miss Havisham kind of way. Drink! Arse! Feck!

"as if i would ever trust anything oprah said!"

Tee hee. IWell _I_ think she's the fricking bee's fricking knees. Ahem.

of course i'm sure. i'm not making it up. it's like i said, you can tell in the EYES that nothing's going to happen.

among many highlights of this year, i had a stupid affair which i shd never have gotten into, and then i made an even bigger fool of myself over someone who was NEVER going to reciprocate. so it's the havisham option for now. we'll see what happen as regards the "forever" option.

I am mystified abt this 'put on the spot' situation but then again i don't get out a lot. In fact, I never felt i needed to connect with the world.

I agree with N and Tim. its not a five second decision. not a five second 'evaluation' of potential' for me.

I am mystified abt this 'put on the spot' situation but then again i don't get out a lot. In fact, I never felt i needed to connect with the world.

I agree with N and Tim. its not a five second decision. not a five second 'evaluation' of 'potential' for me.

The type of guy that I'm attracted to is never attracted to me. I like guys who are shy, articulate, a little bookish, sensitive, slightly feminine, skinny (well, they're all good starting points anyway)...
I've never found a guy like this with the slightest interest in me. Or really, any halfway normal guy...
I've been asked out only once, by a hulking neanderthal incapable of thought, who liked to tell me how happy his tongue ring would make me someday. Ugh.
The average guy doesn't even give me the courtesy of a whole 5 seconds of judgment.

It's disheartening to say the least.

It bothers me most because I know I'm just as shallow. I wouldn't go out with myself. I wouldn't go out with most overweight guys. I have a definite physical standard.

Even worse, literally everyone I live with is a model. My sister is a model, my mother is a model. They never struggle with weight, they have no problem getting the attention of men.

I mean, people say things all the time about how much easier it is to get certain things when you're a girl. It's not true for me at all. I go to the mall and every guy looks at every girl except for me. Guys trip over themselves to do favors for girls while I have to ask emphatically to even get any attention. I don't even register on their radar. Not that these are guys that I want to be with... But it would be nice if I wasn't just invisible, or even worse the subject of public scorn. I'm not a girl, I'm a thing. That's how I feel. That's how I feel I am treated.

Even the nice guys I've met, I can just see they've put me on some mental "not attracted to, won't flirt with her, will be friendly to her" list.

I feel like I've crossed some line where I'm attractive to absolutely no one. Where it's not a matter of taste anymore, I'm just unattractive.

A brutal solution might be that you drop the pretence and just admit to yourself that you go for looks first and everything else second.

But a more practical approach might be to, er, approach a bit more. People aren't going to come to you; you need to approach them, to connect with them. Is the reason that you are evidently not doing this because of shyness only - or is it that you are mentally sizing them up to assess whether they meet your "definite physical standard"?

You won't find anyone in that sort of environment anyway. Anything that will happen, will happen naturally - at work, in the course of your normal life, and you won't realise it until it actually does happen. No good planning for it, no good preparing for something to happen - it either will or it won't. And it's up to you to put yourself in a position/give yourself the kind of life which will facilitate this sort of thing happening.

yes but you didnt say this did you? on the other thread you said it was money, on this one looks, so already its unclear what you think.

anyway, i'm not going to deny looks are the first arbiter (i am going to deny money matters though), but the way we view looks is complicated. somebody i thought of as plain looking and not desirable, gradually grew on me, i cant believe i never noticed how attractive she is now, its seems so strange

"inner beauty shines through" - ugh, sub-oprah placebo, means nothing, explains nothing, it's just a guilt trip which is never practically applied in real life situations.

And its not a meaningless cliche, it's actually quite obvious.

Who the fuck is Gale?

Hence most of the people I'm totally attracted to are not what many would call (objectively) good looking.

Yes, with other ugly people.

Who is Denise, btw?

alison houston

I'm not sure what inner beauty is. I would say my friends have it but I guess that's not what you meant.

Do you just mean 'physical beauty that you don't recognise at first'? Cause as I said above, I can understand that. I wouldn't like the idea of someone saying to me 'I know don't find you physically attractive, but your inner beauty turns me on'.

yes, i do mean this. this isnt virtuous, its still 'shallow', but it is interesting how i can not see it, but then later it can. what has changed, some of this is down to personality, perhaps things like mannerisms that seem cute, a look people give, when they smile and you feel warm, connection. what is it exactly that changes your perception of someones looks? 'inner beauty' is a different issue, how is it manifested in changing physical beauty? how can they not have been beautiful before but they are now?

Gareth -I think it may just take a while before those other factors take hold - I mean, the way someone looks is such an easy, instantaneous way to judge someone, but the way someone really IS often takes a while to sink in. The physical aspect doesnt change but the way you percieve them does.

But this is how I behave around people who I do fancy. Maybe we're just waiting for you to express interest Melissa? The kind of guys you seem to fancy aren't the type would ask you out.

as a total separate issue i am VERY surprised that no one has mentioned charisma, this undefinable thing is very attractive to people (more so than looks i would argue, especially in males), tis may be linked to the previous point in that it is not mere appearance, appearance is not enough, it can be what people do with it. is robbie williams all that? yet hes adored, surely its because of what he does with his looks (look at him mugging in his videos!). link to confidence here as well i think

Also, I feel like a complete minger, fat, spotty, swollen-breasted etc. most days of the week (ignore my blase tone, it's just a cover up - I am not high on self esteem at the moment) but my boyfriend sticks with me. This means that (a) he is a fool and (b) there really must be somebody out there for everyone, so don't lose faith. OK?

then

"what USUALLY counts, nine times out of ten, is the impression you get from what the Other looks like, and the extent to which their looks comply with your ideals or 'standards.'"

It seems to me that someone or other on this thread must have argued convincingly to get you to shift your position in that way. The 'proof' you ask for is upthread: people (myself included) *have* become attracted to people who they didn't initially feel attracted to. (It's happened the other way round too...)

One time out of ten = quite a lot of times.

AnyILXposter (any@osj.djk), November 6th, 2002.

just saving you the fistwork.

oprah-ism = pragmatic achievement of actual real happiness (masked as idealism yes, and often tiresomely expressed)
denise-ism (yes i know it is devil's advocacy) = rationalisation of unhappiness and loneliness as only idealistically existential state

heheh! thats like my dad. if i dont hear him i'm deaf, if he doesnt hear me its cuz i dont speak loud enough. foolproof!

heheh! thats like my dad. if i dont hear him i'm deaf, if he doesnt hear me its cuz i dont speak loud enough. foolproof!

that's like me, if something goes wrong, it's because everyone else is a wanker and they're all against me.

However, I have to disagree with Marcello. There has been more than one occasion where I have become attracted to (and in some cases quite infatuated with) a female friend who I originally did not find attractive. (Incidentally, I tend to currently stay away from any close *friendships* with females because of this.)

Mentally speaking, a sense of humor, intelligence and friendliness are requirements. :-)

Melissa sez. I like guys who are shy, articulate, a little bookish, sensitive, slightly feminine, skinny (well, they're all good starting points anyway)...

Graham do you fit the profile? and bonus points if can you tilt your head and squint your eyes like Thom Yorke?

(seriously)

Mel, that's a load of old cobblers. You could study here and work in a cool job for 20 hours a week, OR you can find a freelance job that requires an American perspective, get the American company to write you a reference for your visa application that says you'll be paid enough to live on, and the kind of visa that you get will (accidentally) allow you to work unencumbered. This is renewable once a year for five years, and only the first renewal gets heavy with bank statements, the following years are rubber-stampish and after that you get permanent residency. Unless that loophole has been tied up - the consulate in Chicago sorted me out initially, so start with them rather than asking us bozos.

But first BUNAC for six months, keep all the official documentation (NI card, NHS number) and the bank account they help you to open, that way you'll have few problems with officialdom when you do come to stay permanently.

I think marrying me would be much less hassle than that Suzy.

Yeah, BUNAC is what I will be doing. But the rest of it has been giving me a headache. I don't know that I could quite afford to be a student, nor if I actually have enough qualifications to get into any UK school. My academic record is quite negative... As for a work permit, it seems one must be highly skilled or qualified for the position to get the permit. I'm not highly skilled or qualified for anything much at all. Unfortunately, my grandparents did not have the good foresight to make sure they were born in the UK, as if they had, this would all be delightfully easier.
There is no Anglophile visa, sadly.

Yeah Denise is a crap name, Marcello. How about Audrey or Irene next time?

or...am I the only one who doesn't?

"The solution to this is to post all day on ILX and try and make everyone as miserable as you are love"

melissa, you'll enjoy yr wedding far more if it was an AMM-themed wedding. I'll get mark to get e.pervost to do a solo percussion set. he's got a grebt kitty!

so melissa and graham, what'll be your first dance? "exit music (for a film)"?

(Everyone seems to think it's entirely the breadknife's fremme neppa venette. Typical)

plus it will stop him chatting me up.

:(

Haha, this coming from "Denise"?

what's your excuse?

I'd rather enjoy the company of a gurl who enjoys derek bailey as much as i do.

I mean God forbid we actually have people with ideas and opinions of their own, with passions and emotions, posting on this board, eh? No, best to keep it a nice little sub-Masonic temple. Everyone keep your head down and ignore the debris burying you. Perhaps they ought to make it password only, like Unk's Troll-Free Saloon. Then they can warble on about kittens for the next 50 years and never worry that anyone else will ever read them.

most times i retain a strange, perhaps fatal confidence that i will meet someone eventually, etc. etc. i am not curious enough about sx that i feel any need to have it with someone i'm not interested in. (and as i don't meet many people the # of people i'm interested in = very few.) but sometimes i actually look over my life and panic--i don't see my essential shyness-cum-unattractiveness changing. indeed it will only get worse.

although i am anonymous (tho maybe some people will figure it out immediately, and consequently shun me), pls be gentle in your responses if at all possible.

i often worry that when i was most carefree and attractive (relative to now) i missed my chances.

If you are a female and want to have sex, you can. End of story. granted just having sex is not going to satisfy all you want out of a relationship and all you look for in a partner. In fact, just doing it for the sake of doing it will probably do none of that.

But I have to advise you to just fucking doing it and getting it over with. Otherwise as you grow older you're going to confuse sex with love when your peers have learned to discern when the two veer desparately away from each other and you will either be leaving yrself open to heartbreak or loneliness. It might sound harsh unless you agree with me but my main advice is: get laid and get it over with.

not the answer i wanted i suppose.

i am less interested in having sex than worried about the stigma/personality deformation implications of not having had it. maybe that is weird in itself.

Keep in mind this is coming from a stone cold slut so . ..

interestingly many of my "peers" were likewise late bloomers. one friend excepted, who lost his virginity at age 15 i think. the others... around age 18-20, excepting a close friend when it was age 23. i was v. happy for her but it of course left me feeling a bit isolated in that respect.

one of my friends, exactly my age, is also a holdout and is v. nice but has a similar shyness/disinterest/???? problem.

x-post. haha um thanks for the invite i guess. sorry for overposting. time for breakfast.

DDG OTM. Go see a prostitute if necessary. An expensive one. Don't worry, dealing with your shyness is part of their job. And you'll get the sex=love meme straightened out right from the start. Sounds awfully unromantic, I know, but knowing what IT's like will make dating a lot easier.

Having skipped all the teenage angst /peer pressure shit re: sex is a good thing as well. Take a good look at these two pictures here and you'll know what you've missed : nothing, actually.

It sounds as if you aren't desperately attracted to sex - "sex with some icky stranger from a bar sounds terrible terrible terrible" - and I can't see why you would need to have sex anyway. Please realise there is nothing wrong or perverted with not wanting to have sex. There are people who only want sex with someone they love, which seems alien to me but is a perfectly reasonable position too. If you eventually find yourself with the opportunity and desire, it won't be a problem - most men, I think, don't admit they are virgins their first time, and I don't think they are often seen through.

I really don't think there is anything to worry about here. (And I adore DDG for her offer! I don't think this person is near you, however.)

''Go see a prostitute if necessary. An expensive one. Don't worry, dealing with your shyness is part of their job.''

that's interesting advice there.

prostitutes = no, if you want your first experience to be even remotely meaningful. I'm a delicate wispy female so maybe it's different, but I would prefer to lose my virginity in a decidedly non-tawdry manner, and no matter how classy she is she's still just doing a job...

and nothing's wrong with you, so fret not about that. most girls LIKE virgins, or maybe just most of the girls I know. if you're honest and don't make it the central point of your life then you should be fine.

and I don't know when to shut up so shall just do it now

all depends on how you think of the first attempt I suppose!

Of course, some of my favorite (erotic) reads are "deflowering" scenes. Well, and they're not always in erotic books (remember the scene in the second of the Cl*n of the C*ve Be*r series where the hunk "opens" the girl? *swoon*) I think that the rush that would come from being somebody's first would be incredible.

But it also depends on if the person just wants to know what sex is all about or if they are looking at sex as being part of some long-term relationship.

it isn't. three times and counting say as much.

"what do you mean why does the marble bust of julius caesar have to face exactly due east? look, do you want to do this properly or not?"

and milly, you and I have are in the same boat- actually I'm beginning to wonder if we're talking about the same guy here...

Logically I see this is true, and sometimes I think I should just "get it over with", but I don't see how I could without a) doing it with some godawful jerk (like the horrible guys my boss meets in her singles club), b) getting stalked, or c) utterly humiliating myself.

I'm not the person who revived the thread, but I completely agree with/see myself in what they said in their first post. I am 24 and female, and don't really mind if ILX people know who I am, but am posting anonymously to hide from friends/family that might google my email here.

There's some trite old saying about how once you have sex then you can't go back to holding hands - and there's a lot of truth in that. Unfortunately, I am one of those that when I meet someone and I want to sleep with them, I tend to do so - but that's not always the best thing to do. Once sex has been had, the dynamics change ever-so-subtly (spelling?). It's like the anticipation is gone, so foreplay tends to shorten and assumptions are made about what one does and does not like - it takes more work to keep the sex exciting and stuff. I look back at some of those I've slept with and while I don't regret them, I do wonder what it would have been like if I'd not been so aggressive and intent on getting into bed so fast.

Anyway, be proud of who you are and don't feel badly about being a virgin - I think it's pretty darn awesome that you have your whole sex life ahead of you. And (this just occurred to me) there's a lot to be said for not starting in your teens, when your partners are the same age and they fumble and don't know what to do - I imagine that starting when one is older means that one's initial partner will be older and therefore more ready to take their time and make it all excellent.

''I think can make a great difference in how you act generally in the world.''

yeah, it does. it does...many brane cells are burned away 'thinking' abt 'stuff'.

An involuntary late bloomer!

Sorry, I was working on plans to deflower masses of virgins.

Question: is the term "deflower" appropriate to apply to both females and males, or is it a female-exclusive term? And if the latter, then what is the correct word/term for males?

Martin - I think that your post is sweet. I wish that someone like you had been around when I first started experimenting - it wasn't until several years later that I had someone like you and started off down a road that was a lot more fun. The idea of being with someone knowledgable and open-minded and adventurous and understanding toward the beginning I think might lead to more people being more comfortable with their sex lives and talking about their needs and desires and fantasies and such.

Marcello, I wish that I could hug you right now.

Julio - it's good to know that there's another person out there who thinks the same way *smile*

Now here's a question along this topic: At what point do you see someone moving from being a girl or a boy to being a man or a woman? Is it when they hit puberty? When they become sexually active? When they're considered by the law to be adult? When they assume what are perceived to be adult roles (being responsible for one's actions, taking care of one's self, etc.)? Or is there some other criteria? And is the transition point the same for girls and boys?

anyone i wd date will have 1000x more experience than me and that worries me. also that this lack of experience will prove deadly for any potential future relationship.

hmm@no seems to think that sex is a difficult thing to do, which it isn't (let's not mention the Kamasutra here). The fastest way to fix this is to see a prostitute. Waiting for The True Love to come along would only prolong his pain, possibly for years to come. Once he has realized he can shag just as good as anyone else he'll be a lot less awkward at dating the next Ms Right because he will have an idea of what expects him after the candlelight dinner. Only it'll be a lot better.

OTM of course. But if there isn't a well-meaning friend at hand, don't hesitate to go for the realpolitik approach. Second-time sex will be better anyway.

and then what abt when that person does get a relationship with someone. do they confess?

Yeah, them cashiers are a nasty bunch.

do they confess?

Why not? This is not the Victorian era, is it? Also he shouldn't forget to inform her on the exact number of times he masturbated before he met her. Complete honesty is very very important in a relationship.

going to a prostitute could well exacerbate the low self-esteem problem

If seeing a prostitute leads to a bad conscience, the whole situation is a bit of a standoff, no? It's wait for the right one and get more guilt-ridden by the minute vs go see a prostitute and be guilt-ridden for the rest of yr life. I can't decide for hmm@no what's worse, but I still believe that a skilled and attractive prostitute could prevent the second scenario from escalating: "It was wrong, but it was marvelous - now let's get into cunnilingus!"

and no, a prostitute won't ruin his life, I agree there...but just for now he should probably wait and have his first with someone he can actually connect with, and then if he wants 101 sex tips he can find the local brothel if he wants.

(and besides, you don't want all his poor future girlfriends to have to measure up to professional technique do you?)

"I can't believe I had to pay to get deflowered when no one else I know did"

Look, the thing is, the prostitute is there. Now. She can provide an answer to the nagging question what sex is like this instant. All that bleary-eyed romanticism re: "b-b-but the first time has to be perfect!" is not only bollocks, it makes the situation worse. It won't be perfect anyway, so why lose more time?

you don't want all his poor future girlfriends to have to measure up to professional technique do you?

Erm, good point. Take a video camera with you.

Not having a meaningful romantic relationship even if you'd like to have one is a far more bigger question, and more difficult to answer as well. This thread might be of some help.

but it also doesn't have to be a totally meaningless experience. he has the rest of his life to have meaningless encounters if he wants (which he doesn't sound like he does) so why start off that way?

and I agree with tuomas, the not having a deeper relationshipissue is the bigger thing and should probably get sorted before anything else.

That being said, I'm curious about how people who have lost their virginity with a professional feel about the process.

''heh, I could give a two-hour presentation on THAT particular fact...''

will that include pictures?

No no no it's the other way 'round : why should he go for a meaningful first time when he can have all the loving tenderness he wants later on (once he's stopped sabotaging himself)?

haha, I certainly HOPE there's no photographic record of it! line drawings will have to suffice...

and fair enough sommer...though it's not wrong to want the first time to be meaningful, as long as you understand that it may not work out that way. to me (at least- I do realize I'm all girly and estrogenic about these things) it seems more logical to tel him to wait and do it with a loved/greatly-liked one than tell him to "get it over with", even if there is a slightly greater risk of temporary hurt.

b-but drawing is dull!

heh, new thread- who would be the most fun to draw on and why?

MEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEME!!!

Honey, factoring in the date you started this thread, you and I are in the same boat right there. In fact, I'm still stuck with the same confusing questions I've always had about relationships, attraction, and need for intimacy, and I don't know how to get out of it. But you know what? I'm going to make a pledge to myself to not obsess over such things anymore. I'm going to try to live my life as fully as I possibly can, and if the whole "romantic love" thing never happens for me, then it was probably never meant to be. Obsessing over never having had a true romantic relationship or anything like that won't do me (or indeed anyone in a similar predicament) much good. All I can hope for is to attempt to conquer each day as it goes, try to find my own place in this world, work on becoming Someone To Envy (or indeed just Someone), and see where the rest of life takes me. And hopefully you too can make the same pledges and try to adopt the same sorts of personal philosophies.

(You're years younger than I am, are almost preposterously poised, and look like a younger Catherine Zeta-Jones. You have SO MUCH going for you. Just FYI.)

problem was, when i went to college i met hundreds of people with those interests, and they were all far better at them than i could ever hope to become + cleverer, goodlooking, perfectly able to get dates, absolutely no interest in me or my creative projects. i couldn't compete. i abandoned my interests, had to drop out of school, returned to my home town where i no longer knew anyone at all, and am stuck there forever. there's nothing left for me now but a minimum wage job, bad tv, + seeing my old enemies going home from better jobs to their loved ones. once i told myself "one day i'll escape, i've got potential you'll never understand" - so so wrong. and still i can't even get a conversation....

You chose the wrong things, apparently.

call me

For me, the worst thing about sex is that it's both a bigger and smaller thing than it should be. When I'm not getting any, it can feel like the most important thing in the world, but when I'm getting some I'm like, yeah it's fun and great, but not really that important. To make it clear, I'm talking about the actual act of sex only; physical intimacy and warmth are probably much more important, though obviously the two are often inseparable. (Not always though.)

-- hstencil (hstenc!...), October 30th, 2005.

wouldn't every thread? ;-)