A necessary post

I think there have been way too many echo threads, or threads that are basically the same. I've been avoiding advice threads, because I feel I always give the same advice, and my life experience is not that much, so what do I know anyway? Plus, since the B*cky stuff, I've not gone on ILX at work, so, I have tons of catching up to do when I do log on.

Though, please don't think I'm trying to dictate the way ILE should be.

Personal problem threads that devolve into attention-seeking antics which ultimately play as only self-serving = dud, dud and motherfucking dud. At the end of the day, this board is public domain, and I hate being made to feel as if my function here as a user is solely to cajole/sustain/endure whoever it is that has decided to make ILE their bitch for the week/month/year. It's condescending as all hell and counterintuitive to the whole idea of a 'community' bulletin board.

*attempting to remove foot from mouth*

(Somehow I have confused you with another ILXer...)

Jess to thread!

Yeah the multiple threads are a factor too. I don't want to make people who've started advice threads feel bad now either, because we've all done it, it's just I feel sometimes the good nature of the board is abused by multiple advice/worship me threads.

*nothing against you ronan, just pointing out the perceived irony*

yeah.

Occasionally though I do feel like extracting the couple of dozen people I really like (that's people and their personalities, rather than their posts) and setting up a Utopia elsewhere. Sure it would get boring quickly, though.

or what oops said. i can't decided if this "new message" thing is good or bad anymore

I think there is a point to this thread, it's a discussion more than anything else, if I could ban myself somehow I would.

I am just posting this because it's slow at work.

Put another way: Save for the Becky Lucas episode and the Hilton B. sorts of things (which I choose to ignore), ILX is just ILX, and my reactions to it have more to do with my own circumstances than with any major shifts in the board's "tone."

Are you going to list them, or are you just going to Tony Blair it?

Ronan's got a problem with ILE, so he posts to ILE about it; I don't really see that as ironic in any way. Unless that's where the 'cheap' comes in...

I have no problem with smart asses and I've seldom been offended here by what people say. As Mark says, what's the alternative solution, I mean where else am I going to post this?

Jel in a get-out-of-my-brain shockah! (Translation: Me too.)

http://www.ed.ac.uk/internat/brochure/images/smile.jpg

Okay, carry on.

How about a dedicated 'THIS IS WHERE YOU BITCH ABOUT THIS BITCH' thread?

Ronan, Try listing things that upset you about ILX (possibly without pointing fingers as I'm very sensitive).

Not trying to be sarcastic, genuine question. We've got personal threads, political threads, jokey threads, food threads, sex threads, etc., what important conversations do you feel are being missed?

I'm hoping yr not meaning it this way, but a relative newbie like me has trouble not taking your complaints as "There are too many new people here who don't know the rules and are messing things up." But I have a tendency to take things personally, and I don't want to start a fight, so I'm assuming you're not saying this.

(trans: All your cats are totally welcome and appreciated!)

I do not think it is right or fair to blame the boards for changing and not pleasing you when you are the one who has changed and needs to figure out how the new you relates to this board.

Who says I'm definitively saying the boards are crap, if you're enjoying them then that's fine but why can't I say if I haven't been. I think you're getting me wrong here Dan, I'm not out to offend, though I realise it's inevitable that I do, but as I said there's not really anywhere else I can post this.

Lots of threads on ILE have a theme of "this is how I feel, does anyone else", I don't see why one about the board can't. I think it's lunacy to suggest either the boards or myself can't have changed in the last 2 years.

I wouldn't have started this thread if there wasn't so many people I actually like here whom I feel an obligation to, I think anyone who knows me can see this is not just obnoxiousness for the sake of it.

I think that's what you should attend to. (I have the same problem sometimes.)

The archives = the boards.
If nothing on New Answers interests me, I look in the archives.
If nothing in the archives interests me, I do something else.

"post things you like" is little better, since, you know, screaming into the void and all that.

Ronan, my post outlining how I felt was negatively tinged by several things:

- In the interim between me writing it and posting it, several people who feel the same way you do posted.
- The entire vibe I got from your initial post was that you want everyone else to change their behavior/posting style to suit you.
- The whole Kate situation: having several people agree with you doesn't make the post where you attacked her any uglier to me. Was I annoyed by the Hilton talk? Vaguely. Do I think you had a massive overreaction? Yes. Do I think you owe Kate an apology? Yes. Will you ever apologize to her? I would hope so, but I'm not holding my breath over it.

I still do not understand why people are upset that they don't read every thread on either board. I think it became physically impossible to do so some time back in 2001.

Whenever I've had issues w/ the boards, whether it be a certain set of posts or a certain gaggle of posters or even one poster, I just take a few lengthy steps back & avoid the boards for a while. Of course, the temptation's there to simply shoot my dumb ol' mouth off about what's chafing me, but the few times I did do that, it didn't make me feel any better, plus it brought undue shit down on my head as well. Hell, bitching about my own board pet peeves AWAY from the board makes me feel like a Grade A shitbird - once I figured out that there's good and bad in all of Greenspun's creations, I found that I didn't have much of any pertinence to bitch about (tho I still bitch) (bitch bitch bitch).

If it's a problem with a certain poster, it'd be best to address that conflict off-board (with the hopes that the other poster will respect your wishes to deal with this privately & not bring it back to the boards). If it's a problem with the boards as they sit right now, and Mark's advice doesn't tickle your fancy (and it's good advice, no doubt), then it really might be best to take an UNANNOUNCED break of undetermined length from the boards. (I emphasize "unannounced" because it'd probably be better to simply take a little time off quietly & innocuously than to martyr yourself and your concept of what the boards & posters should be with a "goodbye" post / thread.)

And the best thing about this is that you can totally disregard this post and it won't matter either way!

1. I've been here a long time and there are people I like.

2. I'm regularly at a computer for college/my own writing.

3. I have had many a good laugh around here, I'd like if that could happen again.

You feel I had an overreaction? That's fine but I mean different people get annoyed by different things and personally I feel something needed to be said, I reiterate that I got abuse back which by any standards was far worse than what I said.

I mean really Dan you can get on your high horse and say I need to apologise to whomever but the reality here is that your argument boils down to saying that someone is not entitled to say they dislike the boards. I am telling you right now that I don't expect people to change or conform to my idea of what the boards should be.

Finally if you really had such a problem with my posts then why not say it back then? I had to actually ask you to come out and state your opinion here instead of just making a snide comment.

this beeyotch also changes us

everything you said since "unspoken fear" seems to me to mean the opposite to what you said back there...

At any rate, a post which says "These are factors which made my initial post harsher than it should have been" seems to have been read as "These are more reasons why you suck" and, as I expected and was the motivating factor behind not posting during the Kate-Ronan spat, I am accused of being on a high horse. Whatever. I'm not interested in having conversations that affect my enjoyment of the board negatively and this one is beginning to, so I'm done. You can feel attacked or like I'm telling you how you must view the board if you want to; that is not my intention. I don't see any way of expressing exactly how I think you're wrong with it being an attack on you and, since I like you, I'd rather not attack you, so I'm out of this thread.

(I hadn't read yr most recent post when I typed this, but it can be read as a partial reply to your question about why people are disagreeing in that I'm not sure what the purpose of your thread is)

people say ILM is in a bit of lull - i dunno, i guess these things fluctuate on a frequent basis - the year's only just starting to really kick off in music and it wont be til Spring that there will really be much talk about the stuff thats poised to become the most talked about new artists and records of the year.

i have no idea what annoys Ronan so much on the board though really. you seemed like you didnt have much of a care in the world last Friday - in fact i reckon you just got so jealous of my spectacular dance moves to 'Cowgirl' that you just cannot bear to be on the same board as me anymore. seriously tho i sympathise with your frustration but i do look forward to seeing more decent threads from you in the near future...

i think if anything the "unspoken fear" part makes the "just take a break" less valuable. if you're confronted with the composition of something you care about changing - for what you feel is the worse - "just taking a break" means its much easier just to walk away for good and never actually have to deal with yr fears, prejudices blah blah

"post the kind of stuff you like" != wall-to-wall kittens, necessarily, esp.in ronan's case, since he's ALWAYS been fiery and argumentative abt there-and-then niggles

(i spose i cd have said "post to produce the kind of stuff you like": what i mean — i guess — is take responsibility for the effect of yr own presence also, in a positive as well as a negative way)

i guess your main annoyance is "why should i leave?". i think in a forum this size there will always be some people who annoy you (and itll be different people for different people), but that is life i think. if you were in the pub, youd be with your mates or whatever, and there might be a couple of people who are really annoying, but you dont go and say anything to them if its not going to get you anywhere. they might even be a friend of a friend, sat right next to you, but they have to cross a pretty major line for you to have a go at them

ive thought hard about what to post here, i dont have any answer, you are a lot less placid than me (agent snarky) so its easy to say dont react. i only react when i think people are being abusive or trollish, and then i dont necessarily handle it well, and descend to the same level (when i know i dont need to)

i think its the 'attention seeker' threads that get you, try and look at it like this...does it hurt to let them have that attention?

As regards the spat between myself and Kate, without wanting to debates the ins and outs too much or restart it (as far as I'm concerned just mutual avoidance is fine) I had been trying to stop myself making a comment or some kind of complaint for about 3 or 4 weeks, and I'd mentioned it to people who can vouch for that. I know that doesn't make having a go correct but a certain post was the straw that broke the camels back. It's difficult to politely tell someone "hey please can you stop this".

I don't really know what to say now but I am glad I started this thread.

One thing to remember: this board is public domain - a communal show - and as such, there should be some common courtesy extended by those who use it to the hundreds of other posters and (god knows how many) lurkers who frequent it. I'm not nearly as fed up as Ronan seems to be, but frankly, I do see his frustration. It's all a fine balance, learning when to offer personal anecdotes and when to glean things from others. If you feel like this balance isn't being met, then it can feel like you're being condescended to, a glorified 'participant' in someone else's blog.

I've never been a big fan of the "if you don't like it, don't read it" school of thought, mainly because I think it invites exclusion and incubates an off-board festering of ill will that's liable to re-surface later in a potentially less constructive fashion. Like it or not, ILX is at its best when it's testing the limits of some central ideological friction; I don't see how encouraging people to stay away from whatever they don't like is going to accomplish anything other than further fractioning off the participants while in turn fostering this base belief that anything - no matter how solipsistic or self-serving - is fair game because, hey, if you don't like it, bugger off.

There's a graceful way to broach any debate; I'd rather that were uniformly encouraged rather than outright silence.

The becky thing was only 3-4 days really. same with connor. There will be more of the like in the future i'm sure. You basically have to will yourself to not posting on the offending threads.

''I've never been a big fan of the "if you don't like it, don't read it" school of thought, mainly because I think it invites exclusion and incubates an off-board festering of ill will that's liable to re-surface later in a potentially less constructive fashion.''

well, unless you are Ned or N, it is difficult to actually open and read every thread so it is quite easy to keep out of threads you don't want to get into.

Thread 'hijacking': you post a thread but you don't have complete control over the way the discussion is going to go. That's the way it works and if the thread is 'hijacked' then it is yr own fault for not posting enough and getting ppl involved in discussing the exact specifics of the thread.

ILM is also fine as well: some really nice classical threads over the last week and the xgau thread was a wonderful waste of time.

People really do respond to the trivial/self-indulgent/troll threads -- those are almost always the ones with 500 new posts. It's frustrating, because when I try to start serious discussions, there'll be an initial flitter of activity, then the thread will die after ten posts, buried underneath a dozen other jokey threads people have started on impulse.

Not to say that there isn't any serious discussion here; it's just fairly rare that a good, thinky thread will generate any momentum. I do appreciate the presence of the Markettes/Momettes/Clovettes/Nipettes/Kogettes, who do their best to bring a measure of quality control to the proceedings. Yay.

—or IS IT?)

This is what happens with most social groups, so far as I have observed. There will always be those who talk about "the good ol' days" and those who get mad at the old-timers for living in the past and not accepting the evolutionary pattern of groups. It's just the way groups tend to evolve, I believe. This time is unsettling for the newcomers and the regulars, as the newcomers are learing the unspoken acceptable rules of behavior and the regulars are gnashing their teeth over having to watch the boundaries being pushed or even broken down.

I think that a lot of the reasons ILX seems more "flippant" or "self-aborbed" than usual is because most of us are under an undue amount of stress, regarding current world events and having all of the theories crammed down our throats by the ever-present media. As a result, we're seeking refuge in humor and flippancy, as an escape from the tension and drama of "the outside world." Likewise, the self-absorbed threads (which I find fascinating, I guess I should say) seem to be a reaching out for validation of one's own identity and value and, also, a plea to be shown that all of the world is not insane and that the world is full of good and caring and concerned people who reach out to help their fellow human beings and the world.

But, all of this having been said, I must say that what is happening here also happened with an in-person group that I used to belong to and care very much about. We had a large influx of new people and lots of the regulars left at the same time (a coincidence, I believe). With so many of the regulars having left, those that remained were not strong enough to keep the set boundaries in place. The group grew rapidly and without any recognizable boundaries - at this point, if I go to a gathering, I can recognize about 4 people out of 400+ - and I used to know, personally and well, about 70 people in the original group.

I guess what I am getting at is that if the regulars leave in disgust or anger or whatever, then we newcomers miss out on their guidance and examples, and what it was that initially drew us to the community evaporates, because those who created that initial atmosphere have left.

So please stay and please set examples and please forgive us as we struggle to learn the norms and please understand that most of our tresspasses are unintentional. And please also remember that this is a normal (and probably unavoidable) evolutionary step in the community, and that we all need to develop coping methods.

I trust I've not stepped on anyone's toes with this - it's just how I am seeing things.

well if there's something in those threads they will get revived and you can get more discussion out of it.

I rarely do threads myself but the first thread I ever posted, on ILM, was abt Fushitsusha (the jap psych band). Only one poster replied but it was revived months and months and thre are now 40 or so posts. Not as much as I'd like but I was a lot happier with it.

ILXOR is mostly troll free so when does come along it is an event.

"Will"? I don't see thread revival happening very often, beyond one or two stray posts.

Sort of like how in my French workbook they give you the answer to the first question of each exercise free!

We're weird that way.

well ronan is clear in that it was more than one person that 'did it'. but its his problem.

I've been reading ILE less too. I think a similar thing is happening as happened to ILM last year (the whole nu-ilm/old-ilm warz) - the composition of the boards shifting and new perspectives having to be absorbed (which obviously means the board gets worse for some other posters). ILM is so much more relaxed now than it was then, though - yes there are lots of specialised threads which go mostly nowhere but you can also have a thread mutate into a really great Irv Gotti discussion without anybody saying b-b-b-but Gotti sucks; you don't really like him; < /wigger> and all the other rhetoric which made ILM such a minefield quite recently.

The difference is there's not the kind of semi-ideological faultlines which ILM divided on so the annoyance and resentment just simmers.

I do think the boards are self-policing organisms but I also think they evolve and there's very little anyone can do to stop that. It's happened on every other 'home' I've found on the Internet and it will happen here - the fact that it's taken (and may still take) a long time to really annoy me, to the point where it would be better for me not to spend time there, is testament to the specialness of this place and these people. But my basic philosophy is that community on the Internet is nomadic.

I wish I had advice that could help people not to feel bad about these boards. I don't. It seems to me that, just like with anything else, there are period of snippyness and boredom on everyone's part. The same thing happens with real-life circles of friends, and I assume the methods for dealing with it are the same obvious platitudes: spend less time around, try not to be bothered as much, do your best to shape things into a form you like.

But don't forget that other people have their moments of behaving badly, and there's nothing so terrible about that. Yeah, sometimes people just want some attention, or just want to whine, or get too easily lured into endless pointless shouty arguments (actually wait I don't know anyone like this), or are just rude to one another for no good reason. Some people are very good about stepping away and not having bad moments online, but others of us occasionally are just not at our best -- in most cases it'll go away.

I'm looking forward to spring threads featuring extended discussions of English foodstuffs I've never heard of. Tom, can you put that in the "how can ILE be better" thread?

(nb: i am guilty of this too. but this may be a real life failing more than anything.)

I will go easy on starting new threads.

If you (and you is directed at EVERYONE here, not Ronan in specific) have a problem with this board, then YOU need to take a break. Yes, I follow this advice frequently. Change starts with YOU, not with telling other people how they should or shouldn't enjoy themselves.

Threads like this bore me. They seem even more self indulgent than so-called "pay attention to me" threads, because they have all the pomposity and none of the playfulness.

i was unawares of any spat you were a part of since, having also been bored/annoyed by some threads, I wasn't reading them. However I agree with an idea mentioned upthread, that we are each responsible for creating a pleasant board. e.g. you can't just advise to avoid threads b/c then we might all end up speaking to ourselves.

The best solution obviously is to make this place more the way you want it by direct contribution. I tend to become exhausted when I see a lot of crap though and just lurk and disappear. So not too proactive myself. . .

Fritz' Pirates thing for instance? Is that getting anywhere? I hope it is! I am wary of committing to contributing anything these days which is why I didn't :(

So you may have noticed I've been going on and on about this girl in my class on every fuckin thread regardless of subject.

So rather than keep any kind of stud credibility going I'm just going to blurt it out, we got it on last night.

Now you all must be happy for me. I'd do the same for any of you. Of course if you hate me snide remarks like "she deserves it" are welcome. If you like me, nice remarks like "you deserve it" are welcome. I know you're all terribly interested in my love life.

-- Ronan (ronan.fitzgerald...), November 7th, 2001.

Wow, I wish my posts were so pithy and non self aggrandising!

OK, I've got that cattiness out now, and I am going to stop.

we might get some right here actually.

Keep safe. That goes for EVERYONE.

sorry, i think it's great here that's my point.

*but* i do think a one thread a day thing is a good idea.

But I like ILE and I don't really see anything that's going on as some massive shift. I think it's just dependent on the week. I have quite recently been entertained/stimulated by this board, and no doubt in the near future I shall be again. And if I find it boring right now, it's because people are talking about things that don't interest me, not because they are talking about things that aren't interesting.

I think maybe though some of you are too dependent on ILx to give you, basically, a good day on the internet. Go and seek other boards, other avenues for discussion with different people. It doesn't mean you should or have to leave this one behind.

I don't really think I'll ever have to take a break from ILx, because I take breaks all the time. Every 5 minutes or so! ILx is NOT the end of the internet, and there is ALWAYS something else to do.

Me. Isn't that convenient.

And I agree with Martin Skidmore too. I usually do. He's a star.

There's only one regular poster on ILE who I find tiresomely self-absorbed and irritating to any degree, whereas most ppl in 'real life' bug the fuck out of me, so that's not bad going, really

(I think that was the gist of this. ILE is so much happier when we are talking about Steve Guttenberg).

And thread hijack is a grand old tradition, see week one ILE thread regarding how threads on ILe were uncannily like SImpsons episodes.

This was what ILE was like in the FIRST DAYS (pre-Ronang). It was as crap then as it is now.

It's also interesting that people mention how many posters are missing, I agree, lately there's no Ricky T, no Katie, no Pete even until now, and I can think of loads of people who've left before that.

I really appreciate people who've made really nice comments here, I wasn't fishing or any such thing but a compliment's a compliment and it cheers me up nonetheless. I can be cranky and happy at the flick of a switch which may not always seem clear, so despite being in a pissy ILX mood today it's no general thing, I'm extremely glad I did the thread.

the one flaw in melissa's argument is that ilx is not the end of the REAL WORLD; if you need a break, get on your pony and ride (or bike, like i just did)

And sometimes its just fatigue y'naa. But as I say - its as crap as it ever was.

I was thinking when Ronan brought this topic up that I missed Pete's film posts! One of the things that keeps ile interesting I think.

Now I feel bad for asking after the R vs. K action! But it's like this: you hate for your friends to fight, but if they do, you totally want to watch.

I am my own person and none of the cast members (I can't be, I've seen a grand total of one-half of an episode and have no idea who to claim as my avatar).

ILE is a collaborative and participatory effort. People get the ILE that they deserve. It's all very well to whinge about how you don't like the tone it's been taken or the threads that have been started.

But my experience of this place is, if I start a thread, or start discussion on a thread about something I'm interested in - art or literature or architecture or music or history something - it will putter along for a dozen posts and then wither. If I start a thread about emotional stuff, with lots of neurosis and soul baring and a little bit of sexual frisson and a whiff of celebrity, then there are 100 posts overnight. So that's *MY* lesson on what flies on ILE and what doesn't. I'm not going to say "YOU MADE ME" because 30-odd years of my own experience made me. But ILE made us all the way that we post on ILE.

There are threads that I find intensely irritating.
-Discussions of sport. SNORE!
-Endless self important discussions of war and current events where people with Big Opinions hold forth like posting 10k of rubbish on a board like this is actually going to change the world
-Endless British how-many-pints-can-dance-on-the-head-of-a-pin type small talk pub rubbish where they hold forth on triva and don't reveal an iota of who they are or anything about them on a personal level

These sort of things gets up MY nose and could ILE an irritating experience for me if I let it bother me, and you'll notice you never find me on those sorts of threads, or the B*cky L*c*ses of the world.

Anyway...

Is posting 1000k of rubbish on a board like this going to make me feel better about getting my heart cracked into little tiny pieces by someone I really thought I was in love with? Maybe. So fuck off if you don't want to read it, it helps to write it.

My posting is either as a result of what's going on on the board or what's buzzing around my mind. I like the discursive threads just as much as the one-lined off-the-cuff ones. My involvement in either is generally dependent on where I am. If I'm at work I can't get too involved, whereas at home I have time to contemplate.

I don’t particularly enjoy threads like this but I think that Ronan has every right to start it. For some people, there is a need for discussion of this kind (and the number of posts to it backs this up). I think it’s important to recognise that his criticisms were not aimed at anyone in particular and that a heads-up like this could inspire a change of mood/direction.

Ronan is a lovely fella who has a lot to say and a rare talent in the way he articulates it. I would say this of many people posting to this board but we have different interests and wants. My hope is that people’s increasing dissatisfaction won’t detract from the level of interaction that I have enjoyed here, thus far.

ILE is the place where a lot of us share our personal joys and anguishes. That is what practically all the threads I have ever started are about, and nobody told me to shut up because they weren't interested and they were all too busy talking about things they considered to be more important.

I always assume that the people who want to talk to me will and if people find my threads too frivolous to contribute to, then they are welcome to ignore me, it's no skin off my nose and it shouldn't be any from theirs either.

I turn on the television. THERE'S A WAR.

I turn on the radio. THERE'S A WAR.

I walk down the street. THERE'S A WAR.

HOW THE FUCK COULD I POSSIBLY BE UNAWARE THAT THERE IS A FUCKING WAR ON THAT I NEITHER AGREE WITH NOR CONDONE? Could it possibly dawn on you that talking obsessively about LOVE is possibly one person's way of trying to COUNTERACT or AVOID all the goddamn WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR ALL THE FUCKING TIME SHITE?!?!?

I look at only a handful of threads and post to fewer. others do more than that, and I laud them, because they're at least attempting to do something that (by no intention of their own lots of times, they're just working their own shit out or whatever) brings me a lot of enjoyment. I treasure that, and treasure both boards when they provide it to me. when they don't...oh well! I do something else, and I wait for better.

when I go through a pile of new CDs, I don't like them all--but sometimes bad records can teach me something. a bad thread can be righted, and it's always kind of inspiring to see someone step in and put it right. maybe being proactive is what I need to do more of, and maybe others of us too.

And again, I HAVE IGNORED KATE'S THREADS (the ol' caps-locks for emphasis tedium inducer), what I take issue with is kate suggesting the daily war threads are egomaniacal but her threads - jim dandy.

the rest is sneering and fluff. but in a good way.

the thing is, it is entirely fair to dislike ronans, kates, james blounts, gareths, suzys, nabiscos, neds posts. its even fair to dislike these people. but having a go at them reveals more about you than the person you are attacking. i dont think any of the above peoples posts are bad in any way, though i am sure they have ALL made some posts that i didnt like. but do you want to be the person wading in and making a scene?

"A wise man told me don't argue with fools
Cause people from a distance can't tell who is who"

Other than the kind of threads listed above, I don't think ILE has changed as much since the old days as some people would like to make out. In any case, the constant influx of new posters is THE BEST THING ABOUT ILX. I post on another forum that has been going about as long as ILE and has had about two new posters in the past 18 months, and has become the most boring, predictable, tame, cliquey and generally pointless thing you could imagine. The fact that ILX does change in character from one month to the next is what keeps it interesting.

down several pegs

And Kate's post seemed (to me) be saying the same things from the other side. And to be saying that she lets them be and posts on threads that interests her.

Because week after week I get beatdown after beatdown of people who just start threads like this to have a go at me, to slag me off, to talk about how uninteresting they find my threads, my life, my very existence, etc.

There are plenty of threads on this board that I find uninteresting. My point was not that there should not be warposts. If you want to talk about the war, talk about it till you're blue in the face.

What I am saying is that if YOU have the right to have warposts, *I* am able to ignore them, and by the same token, *I* have the right to have crushposts, and YOU should be able to ignore them.

Anyone who is not prepared to accept that statement HAS NO RIGHT to be on ILE.

I am really fucking angry, and stupidly hurt and upset right now and there really is no need for this.

As for the general discussion on this thread, from my point of view the only times I get pissed off with ILX are when it's eating into my time/life too much as opposed to what other people are saying. (If I disagree strongly with something I'll either ignore it or say something.) The addictive nature of it can stop me from doing lots of things, and I have to keep reminding myself to use it in a way that I'll get the most out of it rather than just sitting here and refreshing 'New Answers' every five minutes to see what's going on.

But I have to say I enjoy it here and I don't think there's anyone who I'd rather not see post. Whenever somebody posts something to make me think "they're full of shit" they'll post something the next day that makes a great point.

Here here. (I'm seconding this cause I think it so indicative of what I, and perhaps many others too, get bored with. Just endless repetition of ILE 'lore'. That's not to say I am bored of Dan Perry or whoever making smutty innuendo, it's just the desperate pally routine of calling for it, referring to other ILE poster's 'quirks', 'reps' all the time that gets tedious. For me, anyway. I normally steer clear of this kind of moan but for some reason I don't care to this morning.) That is all.

In the meantime the getting to know you conversation is going on around us with the new fellas, and we might get snippy (NICK) feeling we have to repeat what we've already said.

By saying Dan Perry to thread we are suggesting to the new punters that there is this bloke round here, namely Dan Perry, who might have something interesting to say on this matter. Helps the community.

(i) if a person has more than one great idea for a thread per day they should be entitled to post the questions before they forget them (subtext: I have always been sceptical of the idea, "if it was so important you wouldn't have forgotten it")

(ii) there are many days where I don't look at ILx, let alone post a question. This is true of many of us - we can't all be N.!

(iii) I am genuinely curious abt how often I post questions. I know that my mood can dictate whether I post questions & answers, just post answers or simply lurk.

(I like this graph better (=a graph of network activity on wh3rd.net, NB date runs from right to left for some reason)

this is essentially a good idea.

If, as she says, she finds relief or some kind of catharsis in exposing her views, why is that a problem? If you're uncomfortable with it, just move on but don't set about sticking the boot in to someone who's touching vulnerability is put on display for all to see.

It's cruel.

So is Graham. So is N.

Graham is very talented with computers.

Tom E: you know how you and I agree about doing Creative Things that are not posting to ilx? I have got a grebt idea for a Creative Thing that I would like you to do. It involves changing one large word on my recent Lloyd Cole article.

And back on topic, I'm slightly surprised how personal and vicious this thread became so quickly. But if there *is* an ILE malaise at the moment such a thread could only contribute to it I suppose. For the record, I don't think it was an inappropriate thread to start.

I really, really don't. I think it could seriously detract from spontaneity.

Remember, your message could be read by 1000s of people!

Again, I think this is vacuous. Some people haven't been here for long and it's not old ground for them. Additionally, we don’t always resolve issues; it’s a forum for discussion after all.

I'm not sure why I feel so angry after reading your post.

Some people haven't been here for long and it's not old ground for them.

It's not old ground for new people no, but finding an old thread that deals with it and reviving it (or just seeing why people who have been on here longer might not be so bothered about talking about it again) keeps both old and new happy.

I think Tom E's grebt new Creative Activity needs a thread to itself.

Lara is really angry.

Really, really?

I avoided posting on this board a long time out of nervousness. Then I went to ILm, made hideous typos on the Xgau thread, came back here and read JBR's comments re: "greater # of people lowering intelligence peg," laffed at myself, and am now ready to post. I also haven't slept yet, so I apologize in advance.

First of all, I'd just like to apologize again. I really did think, after reading through how many "regulars" agreed with Ronan, and considering what a rationalist bent ILX has, that some people may have been irriated with me posting incoherent astrological treatises on here the past few days. Tom's comment regarding ideological shifting of ILE really made me wonder if I am contributing to this. And I had enough reason to believe it after Momus mocked my metaphysical musings, which I didn't take seriously at the time, since it's only Momus being Momusian. Reading this thread at first though, made me scratch my irrational head - I feared that I may have cemented, with that "Is ILX run by Aquarians" thread, any impression that I had given before of being an incurably laughable loon who cannot be taken seriously at all. I have good reason towards being extra self-conscious and sensitive in regards to my sanity, due to my life history.

Now I know that was just my immediate, neurotic, oversensitive response. I agree that Ronan had every "right" to post a thread saying he doesn't like what ILE has turned into, but echoing Nick A's comments above, I also don't understand what the complete point was, as it has only created more bad feelings here (was that not, uh, anticipated?? It should have been.). When you are not going to specify what threads or concepts have been bothering you, (or even ask for suggestions about how you can enjoy or deal with the ones that do), people are going to assume things. It can make those, such as myself who feel very *self-conscious about their "place" on ILX, or new posters who are not in some defined clique, or old ones who have been posting a lot more during the time you make such a comment, or one who is not a legendary poster whose name rhymes with Bed Maggot or Pan Cherry, feel unduly bothered about the whole deal. Or maybe I am the only paranoiac to feel this way, but I still think it deserves to be said before the next non-constructive "I hate what ILX has become, don't you" thread pops up, as it inevitably will.

Regardless I apologize again and vow that I shall not discuss mysticism or metaphysics again on this board, since in retrospect I've come to the conclusion that it's just something that should not be discussed in a public forum like this in the first place. It disrespects the sanctity the issues may behold, and moreover, it comes across as pedantic, illogical drivel to those uninterested. Some things should only be spoken of in person, such as God, death, secrets and insanity.

And sex. Which leads to Kate. Yes, sometimes the things she says are overly personal and redundant and perhaps best left unspoken in a public posting environment, and maybe she should be more conscientious (we don't know even KNOW the guys she goes on about, so that may make her crush threads a bit boring). But as opposed to myself, who can talk to people IRL about my spirituality, maybe Kate does not have an outlet to express her obsessions about certain people she knows in real life, since it would lead to complications. She likes the freedom she feels here. Since no one is FORCING you to read every thread, I don't understand why there is not enough room on here for her "crushposts," just like there is enough room for war posts or FAP -gossip posts. And she has a point Ronan: I remember how in the fall of 2001, you posted a lot about your own relationship issues. but I'm not "taking sides."

I think the way this thread has turned out though, is pretty sad, since it's almost as if Kate's "worth" as a poster is being subtextually debated. I echo the comments of Tatyana and Melissa that I like her posts and that she is one of the most honest, emotionally revealing people on here. Everyone does not have the gift of personalizing experiences as they are describing them in writing, as she does. She's remarkably self-honest too: do you really not think that she is not self-aware or her self-indulgence? She's not asking you to read her threads in the first place. Generally, I think stevem is OTM.

* - I'm an "irregular," I have posted in sporadic chuncks in 2001, 2002 and now 2003. I was overly self-conscious on here as a while since my "arrival" on ILE was during a time when I was undergoing what you could call the opposite of a mental breakdown (breakup? It was a *positive* thing, but overwhelming) , a legacy that took a while to let go of. But since I'm irregular, posters who may have arrived after me may think of me as being a newbie, which I am not. Since I have directly used ILX as a means of helping me during my stays here, either during urgent questioning of pressing emotional/mental issues (please don't find it), or as a means of keeping myself awake, I concede that i may be guilty of turning this place into an advice column orself-help center at times, which is also what Ronan implied, I think. So I apologize for that as well. I really did not mean to do that, and I'm sorry if it ever annoyed anyone (like Tom??)

I think we should all have a group hug. I heart you Ronan, Kate, kittens, dave q, even you Momus. [hug]

So, i will leave you all with some humor, which is all I usually aspire to do (not Change da World, well not usually, hardy har har). I like getting laughed at, even if its for all the wrong reasons. And I laffed a lot when i opened my email today and saw this in my inbox:

From: "jazmin cusse"
To: Iodine999@aol.com
Subject: you sucks
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 01:19:13 -0300

im from argentina and when i read this place i said "you are all a couple of ignorants". i have listen to his lirycs thouseand of times and he is so special. he writes what he feels and im sure you never really listened to his lyrics. you all should pay attention when he sings and when he plays the instruments. he is a perfect musician

I think it may be in response to the "Is IlX Run by Argetians?" thread, but as I never posted on it, damned if i know

I agree. I'm not going to answer the first question though.

I think this thread is selfish pointless stupid and so on EXCEPT that if it makes Ronan get on with accepting that ILE is what you make it and start posting more then it will all have been worth it.

If ILE was just what I personally made it then I'd go and chat to myself in my room about "excessive media attention" or whatever else. It's not, that's only partially true.

Anyway to get more constructive; is it possible that the increased volume of posts means flippancy has become more widespread? I mean god knows ILE always has had the flippant funny thing going on but the multiple/scultiple/pultiple threads thing is surely this taken to the absolute limit.

I think Kate could take this a bit less personally, but it may be too late for that. I have shitloads to say about "personal posts" etc etc but I can't be arsed having to deal with personal responses.

Because I'm the moderator you might not believe me, but I don't think there's anyone currently posting to ILE who is destructive or bad for the boards. I think anything that's wrong with this place is a collective wrong, which is why collective discussion is the way to tackle it.

I'm not sure why I feel so angry after reading your post.

Selective reading / editing strikes again! What I *also* said was that it "may be inevitable". What I meant by that (but could have explained better I suppose) was that the whole sodding point of ILE is that new people come along who don't know what's been said before and liven up the place. Clearly there will inevitably be some repetition, and that seems equally likely to put off older visitors, who will moan and groan, but that's just life.

(No need for the TATU picture either Jess.)

(Oh go on then.)

Quick! Start attacking Eyeball Kicks!

No, I think you make it better, EK. Sorry.

As James B said I kept my mouth shut for ages, anyone on AIM will know that, I did my best and in the end I think this is a polite way of discussing the problem. I can't believe that you Vic, would be more pleased with the post if I made a list of people and things that annoy me. THAT'S what I would consider to be creating bad feeling for the sake of it. The whole reason I never mentioned Kate in the first place is because it's only a tangential connection anyway and I knew the thread would explode.

I'm not getting into the ins and outs of how people use ILX.

Back to intermittent lurking. Bye!

Haha N. is ILE becoming too pally?

That's not what I'm saying, you illiterate twit.

yes.

*retires into glamorous silence once more*

Ingredients:

8 cups chicken broth.
3 medium eggs.
1/2 cup rice.
Juice from two lemons.
Salt.

1. Bring chicken broth to a boil. Salt to taste.

2. Add rice, cover, and simmer for 20 minutes.

3. Remove from fire.

4. In a blender, beat the three eggs, slowly add the lemon juice to the eggs.

5. Add one cup of chicken broth, do not stop blending. The constant blending is the secret to prevent curdling of this delicious soup.

6. When the eggs and broth are well mixed, pour this mixture back into the remaining broth and rice.

7. Stir well over heat, but do not allow to boil.

Serves 6

Except this Chaki post, which I heard in the voice of Professor Frink from the Simpsons (possibly 'cause of the run-on-ness of the sentence...):

dave irv gotti makes those really stupid rap/r&b songs with the chimes and the acoustic hammer on pull offs and the fluttery synths and ja rule. mm-hey!

Come on! don't take it off board. i order (!!) you to do threads on matphysics.

i don't see what the problem is really. There just isn't one.

Ronan, i didn't mean you had to list names, just either be more straightforward with what was bothering you (but in a non-hostile manner, maybe putting it in the form of a question?), or perhaps just skip threading the matter and take it directly to email, since that would prevent including others to chime in with their 2 cents, (and more "yeah, I don't like __ *either*" type of comments, which you may have anticipated)? I don't know though, I guess I've changed my mind and that this has turned into a constructive thread, since as Tom said it's a collectivist approach to a problem apparently more than one person currently has with ILE. Which is good. So you are right, in a way. I just thought that someone should say what i said, in behalf of all of the insecure and/or new people. I know you did not start this thread with any malicious intention, and I actually miss your own postings on your own personal life, since I don't know much about the dance music you listen to, so I skip those threads. :)

Amteurist, that was the most necessary post here as of yet. Merci

No, clearly vague passive-aggresive whining is the way to go.

I don't mean "If you think" I mean "If you want to act on". Ronan can't do anything about the second. I'm not sure that the ILX Patriot Act (*) will do much about it either.

I of course think that there should be less threads that I don't enjoy.

* I am the ILX overreaction king!

!!!!!!!

Tom E: I saw FT itself before I saw your confirmation on this thread. Hooray!