24 Hour Party People

otherwise, it was aiight.

i might have to get it on dvd...

i wouldve liked to know why Factory never signed 808 State - too insignificant to be mentioned in this film though no doubt

also, in the seeming absence of hopkins, THERE'S NOT ENOUGH STOCKHOLM MONSTERS...

You Momette you!

The thing is that 24HPP is not a sturdy, coherent genre piece - it's a silly, liberty-taking mess which works because it cheekily presumes that something of interest to a few fanboys can be made fascinating to anyone who watches it (it doesn't always succeed at this because I like a presumption). It doesn't approach the 'dark still heart' because Peter Saville's sleeves have already illustrated the d.s.h. better than anything else could, I think.

But going back to 24HPP - I kind of agree with SR that the film - like a lot of modern Britflicks - is afraid to slow down and be thoughtful or serious. It's a kind of Carry On Hacienda. And don't need to be a FACfanboy to be disappointed by that (eg you could be a Michael Winterbottom fanboy!).

Yeah I see your point JtN - it did set out its non-serious stall and stick with it, fair criticism if that's not what you were looking for.

So, Winterbottom and Cottrell-Boyce* = sexists?

Though he used to do the TV review page in Living Marxism, and they're complete fruitcakes so anything's possible...

I think what I judge pubs on is somewhat different but I'll think aabout that a bit more. Oh and please, if you are discussing me alongside cultural commentators like Hopkins and Ewing please be sure to mention me only by my surname too.

That said I think there is much more than a germ of truth in what you say Jerry.

i tht it an uninvolving ordeal myself, and i wz watching it with one of the women who got written out — who wz spitting nails at the end

(sorry)

That said, the gender politics of the film are v.weak, and the excuse that it is inherently a misogynistic film because Tony Wilson is a misogynistic character is equally poor.

i saw CC sing at the 12-bar abt three weeks ago, doing a tiny promo for the miaow comp

Reynolds's review pivots around his 'Ballardian desolation' and that's where I'm uncomfortable with it. In one sense the chaotic, uncouth goings on shown in the film are kind of savage in a Ballardian way, but I get the idea that SR really wants Manchester/JoyDiv to be bleak and brooding and existential. My guess is that Manchester and the Factory scene was bleak and lairy and scruffy: that's much more of a challenge / counterpoint to the music they made.

I would have hated the film if it had been all mythic Curtis wandering wordlessly around concrete multi-story car parks: desolation comes in much more diverse and interesting packages than that. I like the fact that there was all this blokeyness going on in direct contrast to the noises and feelings in the music (until the Mondays, at least). One of the points of the film is the Monday's resolution of that conflict. Cor - it must have been a dialectic.

Even though their music was kinda bleak, brooding etc, JoyDiv and just about every other FAC band were/are football and beer blokes - I think this prolly disappoints SR. I think he'd prefer it if JD had been 4 Howard Devotos

(cf also carol morley's: manchester — the alcohol years)

beeriness = an evasion
grim-up-north artiness = an evasion
e'd up advert-style camerawork = an evasion
carry on = an evasion
morrissey-style icon-referential feyness = an evasion

the movie certainly doesn't play w.any of these in a useful, unfrightened way: i'd be surprised also if reynolds got in among such stuff (ie in forthcoming book) — it's so not his territory

curtis's suicide shrieked HERE BE DEMONS at the entire post-punk project, and it shrank away from almost everything it wz toying with (which can maybe be summarised as: imagine what wd happen if every aesthetic and/or marketing and/or sociological distinction ever wz overthrown — let's make THAT kind of music)

doctorseeaesthetics indeed!

I still haven't seen 24HPP - Mrs. Dr. C even rented it from Blockbusters and it went back unwatched.

But I can't believe you just passed up the opportunity to be consensually and henceforth described as a 'glamour kid'.

best thread in ages :)

Nipper: your contributions to this thread entertain me; sometimes they even move me. But they strike me as a bit cartoonish; a bit JtN by numbers. The persona you're posing as here is terrific... but is so broadly sketched as to evade complexities.

The fact that Hopkins is arty and intellectual is among the most obvious of these. The fact that you and I have had our most romanticist and glamorizing conversations in... *pubs*, occasionally with... *football* on in the background, is another. Can your dualisms survive such complications? I hope so.

There is clearly much in what you say; but I think it needs saying at manifesto length (say 500 words for starters).

What with the Pinefox being "The Geezer" he might slot in somewhere...

Actually I must admit that I didn't use that ilxism well at all just now. But I couldn't think of another way of describing the effects of doc Baran's discourse.

Nipper: your contributions to this thread entertain me; sometimes they even move me. But they strike me as a bit cartoonish; a bit JtN by numbers. The persona you're posing as here is terrific... but is so broadly sketched as to evade complexities.

Does anyone else ever feel like the PF is making donnish notes at the bottom of their essay synopis?

For what it's worth, I think the PF misrepresents my argument - it's not a question of liking art or liking or liking football or these things being mutually exclusive or whatever - it's a way of liking - and talking about - these things.

One term of yours that I would like to see you explain: 'cultural materialism'.

still searching for that deleted scene in which Hannett hisses "mmmm precious Fairlight, we wants it! its ours is it! but Wilson is tricksy and buys Hacienda instead, wargh!'

* Going way back to Suzy's first post on the first thread: since I only know Coogan from various appearances in print -- he was regularly featured/interviewed in MM's media section in the early nineties from the Paul Calf/Day Today days on -- I don't have Partridge as a living, breathing character to refer to. Similarly I don't watch BBC2 for obvious reasons. That being the case, a lot of the various criticisms of the film strike me as both perfectly well-informed but for a lot of people away from its site/culture of creation inapplicable -- it's an out of context artifact just like Factory releases itself were (I ranted about this yesterday here in a slightly different context). I don't think of Coogan playing himself or Partridge, I just think of an actor playing Wilson and making an interesting character out of him from what I know.

* As Dave B paraphrasing Hooky notes, "the women who were involved get written out of the story" -- I wasn't expecting Ludus's performance at the Hacienda where Linder came dressed in meat, to be sure, but still. Even in the one deleted scene where Joy Division turns into New Order, Gillian Gilbert is essentially a cipher (not that many other figures in the film aren't also -- I'd LOVE to know more about Alan Erasmus in real life).

* The deleted scenes didn't have a Moz cameo from what I could make out but it did have a scene where a young Moz ended up in the back of Tony Wilson's car briefly. Dunno if the actor was actually in the Sex Pistols performance scene too. There's also a brief and hilarious scene where the Fall are playing "Rowche Rumble" and Wilson is spotted in the crowd and abused. The actor playing Mark E. wasn't perfectly down with That Drawl but made a noble effort. Oh, and the cut cameo with Vini Reilly is NOT in fact on the DVD unless they've hid it as an easter egg or something.

* The slew of interview snippets on the first disc are nice, but Spencer is right in what he told me last week -- the Shaun Ryder one is FRIGHTENING. Just...man. If you thought Shane Macgowan was a good advert for the perils of drink, Ryder as one for the perils of everything and anything will leave ya horrified. Sure, part of it is age, but hell, even though Bez himself looks a touch uncomfortable, he's nowhere near in as bad a shape. (And I didn't mind the guy playing Ryder in the film, he played him like a few almost loose cannons I've known...)

* What everyone says about Paddy Considine as Rob Gretton is perfectly true. I've always thought Gretton was a very interesting character who deserved more attention than a shadowy cameo at the end of the "Touched By the Hand of God" video, and I was as pleased as punch that he makes it in as much of a movie as he did -- and out of all the actors he DEFINITELY looks the most like the real person did.

* Still a very enjoyable film, really.

lol totally did not notice the first time around that Curtis is watching Herzog's Stroszek on TV when he does himself in

A+

needed more (some) section 25 imo

isn't that he was watching IRL? don't get why that's a LOL

how would anyone know what he was watching? was he found immediately afterwards or something?

it's lol because of the content of the movie, particularly the scene he was watching with the chicken dancing

Ian Curtis danced like a tortured chicken DO U SEE

The detail about Stroszek has been pretty well established, along with his listening to Iggy Pop's The Idiot.

i don't know how they would know but it's on his wikipedia page, so I'm pretty sure it's something that people were saying before 24PP came out.

quite a bit before iirc

I remember first reading about it in 1988 or so.

did he leave a note or something? I don't really care, this just seems like an odd detail to accept as established fact. as it is, I had never heard it before, and lol'd when I recognized the clip both because a) it is a funny clip and b) it is a funny juxtaposition

The Iggy Pop thing was confirmed pretty easily -- it was on the turntable. The Herzog detail I'm less sure about but I gather the TV was still on and tuned to a particular channel; I'm not sure if it was still broadcasting at that point or they just backtracked along the channel's schedule. (It's possible there's some other information explaining all this in more detail.)

what people didn't change the channel in those days. I dunno this just seems like silly mythologizing to me

also I am kinda amazed Stroszek would be shown on TV anywhere, ever. but UK is different I guess.

you can't change the channel when you're dead

j/k i know what you mean

I saw it a couple times, always enjoyed it. I thought there should have been more scenes with the Mondays showing how the drugs impacted the music. Also has anyone read Bez's autobio "Freaky Dancing"? Theres a number of gigs and incidents that definitely should have been in the movie.

Did not know about a Peter Saville interview. I really need that DVD now.

Turns out it was a little more clear than I thought, but also, unsurprisingly, not quite like in the movie:

On Saturday May 17th, Ian cancelled arrangements to meet friends and returned to his home in Barton Street. Deborah was working behind the bar at a local disco, and had left Natalie with her parents while she was at work. While she was out Ian watched Stroszek, a film by Werner Herzog. When Deborah returned, she and Ian talked for a while, then Ian persuaded her to stay the night at her parents' house.

Alone again in the house, Ian listened to Iggy Pop and wrote a long letter to his estranged wife. In the early hours of Sunday morning he hanged himself in the kitchen using the rope from a clothes airer. His body was found by Deborah when she returned later the same day.

That via here.

ah. weird.

what people didn't change the channel in those days

how many choices did he have? 2 other?

Still pretty fucking awesome that one of those two channels was showing Stroszek though.

what an age they lived in

Having just looked up the TV schedule for May 17, 1980 on the Times archive, I can tell you that Ian's choice that night was:

BBC1: The Val Doonican Music Show, followed by Knots Landing
BBC2: Bernard Levin interviews Dennis Potter, followed by Stroszek
ITV: Film Superdrome, followed by Tales Of The Unexpected

woulda gone for knots landing myself

In Control, they show Curtis' last hours basically conforming to what Ned posted (as it would, since it was based on Deborah's book). I seem to recall reading something else where one of the last people to see him alive said that Ian said he was looking forward to seeing the movie on tv that night.

I actually like the way the suicide is presented (via jump cut) in 24HPP. So funny in a seriously dark way.

woulda gone for knots landing myself

= why you're still here
xp

haha

need to know what Shakey would have switched to tho

big Dennis Potter and Herzog fan so I would've been in for the night too lol

Don't want to piss on Curtis' memory but I find it more depressing that BBC2 won't show a film like 'Stroszek' now and would rather show The two fat hairy bikers instead.

I was a particularly obnoxious 15 year old and so I was probably moaning at my parents that they were watching Tales of the Unexpected instead of that cool film on the other side and why the hell haven't we got a video recorder yet like my mate who's got a Philips V2000 for gods sake, it's so unfair.

And what the devil was Film Superdrome?

saw it a couple times, always enjoyed it. I thought there should have been more scenes with the Mondays showing how the drugs impacted the music. Also has anyone read Bez's autobio "Freaky Dancing"? Theres a number of gigs and incidents that definitely should have been in the movie.

Yeah I loved that book and indeed it seems like it would make a great movie on its own. But it's not as though 24HPP had much dead space...it felt like 2 or 3 movies crammed into one with a giant smirk over the top. I enjoyed it but I can't imagine how anyone who didn't know about Factory would take it. I watched it with a friend and had to explain a lot, like "oh yeah Ian Curtis had epilepsy, that's why he acted that way", and of course who the Mondays were and whether or not they really acted like that (by all accounts, they kind of got it right). I didn't really like how this movie sort of chastisted the audience if they took it seriously, as though it purposely didn't want you to really enjoy it. As for Bez I think "Freaky Dancing" would make a great movie; the thing is that like 24HPP I really have no idea how much of that is actually true (I doubt Bez knows, either!)

The bloke who plays Ian Curtis must live very near me as I see him around constantly.

I watched it with my brother, who only listens to classic rock and American hip hop, and he actually thought it was pretty cool and funny. I did have to do a lot of explaining thoughout tho. I found it interesting how it balances the audience disdain and post modern japery with a heart of enthusiastic idealism, which I think was real coming from Wilson and a lot of the others.

A Bez movie would appeal to a broader audience, and maybe get the Mondays some new fans here in the States. Or maybe not; one time at a rave a couple years ago, I was frying with this kid in my car, and I put on "Pills & Thrills". The poor guy couldn't take it (he was more into evanesencelol). I was talking to a friend about the Mondays yesterday. By all rights they were kind of a shitty band, but somehow it all clicked and they became The Best Shitty Band in our estimation. Which fulfills Roland S Howard's definition of a good rock band: One that is capable of being both the best and the worst act on any given night.

This friend also rates "Yes, Please"

I play the Mondays on bar jukeboxes all the time and my pals seem to like them fine. I definitely wouldn't want to talk music with someone who finds Pills & Thrills unbearable; it's their friendliest album. Bummed is the one that turns people off (so obviously, it's one of my favorites)

i fuck w/ any mondays up to but not including yes please, which i think is trash

Bummed: I love how Martin Hannett got the snare to sound like someone banging a door really loudly. Its also got Shaun's most vulgar moments.

big Dennis Potter and Herzog fan so I would've been in for the night too lol

I dunno this just seems like silly mythologizing to me

i fuck w/ any mondays up to but not including yes please, which i think is trash

stinkin thinkin is a jam, lucky it came out before the album

do not like

I want to see a 24HPP-style film covering early 70s prog rock. Or was that Spinal Tap?

Basically this is how you do music biopics.

The Herzog detail I'm less sure about

The story I understood was that he was at his parents' house, but went home to watch the film, as he didn't want to subject his parents to watching something they'd hate. Or maybe they were "our telly, our rules"...

I wasn't expecting Ludus's performance at the Hacienda where Linder came dressed in meat, to be sure, but still.

This might have actually been in the script, however...

There was something in the script that Linder had objected to but the film makers were not prepared to remove/alter. So, she rang her good friend Morrissey, who has a fair bit of spare money and access to lawyers, and the offending scene(s) were removed (or never filmed). Still, after the 'case' was settled, Moz was big enough to praise the resultant film...

But I guess the whole Ludus scene(s) were also dropped. Which is a shame, as then people would have mentioned Linder in the context of Lady Gaga's famous "meat" dress. Then again, I was the only one (it seemed) to remember the first Undertones single compilation album "All Wrapped Up"...

linder could have been "my meat dress, my rules"...

Then again, I was the only one (it seemed) to remember the first Undertones single compilation album "All Wrapped Up"...

I remember it, fuckin' 'orrible (the sleeve, not the album obv.)

the Brighton Rock remake that came out this year has a scene where Sam Riley and Sean Harris have a fight, Ian Curtis punching Ian Curtis is a sight to behold (films a bit rubbish otherwise)

ah I like that bit of triv, yeah!

I was told (on about the best authority possible) the Linder scenes were on the libelous side and were removed on that basis.

As Linder is now a fairly well-known contemporary artist, and Gaga lives in a microworld where people know who Carolee Schneeman is, I don't doubt the appropriation was unconscious on her part.

yeah, did I not say that? Oh, I didn't...

I read the Lyndsey Wilson book, the original script had the author having sex with 4 blokes she'd never met in real life, and Vinnie Riley out of Durutti Column.

So, who knows what Linder's 'tale' would have been.

I should really read that. On the extras for 24PP Hook (the right-on dude that he is) complains that the film doesn;t have enough about the women at Factory, esp. Lindsay.

yeah it downplays their roles massively, e.g i had no idea the extent to which lindsay reade was actually involved in the label til i read shadowplayers..

the Brighton Rock remake that came out this year has a scene where Sam Riley and Sean Harris have a fight, Ian Curtis punching Ian Curtis is a sight to behold (films a bit rubbish otherwise)

― zappi, Thursday, March 10, 2011 12:15 PM (6 days ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

ah I like that bit of triv, yeah!

― Mark G, Thursday, March 10, 2011 12:18 PM (6 days ago) Bookmar]

Extra trivia - Sam Riley was supposed to be in 24PP playing Mark Smith, you can see the deleted scene (he's singing Rowche Rumble) in the extras.

I thought he was in the movie as well?

"Things could be worse, you could be the lead singer of The Fall" - RGretton to Ian Curtis, in "Control"

Not in the version I've just watched - but I did doze off briefly - not because the film is boring, just that it's past my bedtime.

i tht it an uninvolving ordeal myself, and i wz watching it with one of the women who got written out — who wz spitting nails at the end

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 25 February 2003 12:15 (twenty years ago) bookmarkflaglink

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