When, if ever, did you stop thinking Tottenham were one of The Big Clubs?

part of me thinks it was partially bad luck to have such financial problems / very public battle for control of the club at the worst possible time, the early 90s moment when the Premiership / New Elite was forming, because generally the success/otherwise of a club at that moment has been a decent guide for the following decade or so (Liverpool messing up under Souness = never won the Premiership, Everton in a bad state = numerous relegation battles, Forest in decline as Clough held on too long = ten years as a yo-yo club or worse barring one miraculous third place and UEFA Cup run).

the one big exception is Sheffield Wednesday, whose early 90s side was their best for 30 years, which makes their current state an even more monumental cock-up.

I only started this thread because I think it's probably the biggest psychological change in how football fans conceive a particular club - pre-Premiership, it was accepted that Spurs were one of "the big five", always challenging if often frustrating. in the Premiership era, you've become just another mid-table team (and, as you say, that is all you are these days - the least important domestic trophy and a desultory European run following it is pretty much the average mid-table team's achievement in a 10-year period). the stature you've lost is psychological, in the minds of other fans, as much as anything else. the 5-1 at Middlesbrough and the 0-4 to Blackburn were utterly *predictable*; I don't think anyone was surprised by those results. 15 years ago, they would have been.

Sadly, in the vast majority of the time I've been a Spurs fan, we've never been anything *other* than mid-table, with the occasional FA Cup semi-final or relegation struggle in order to alleviate this. It's like Jel says - so many great players have come and gone with bugger all to show for it (although this doesn't really differ from Middlesborough or Blackburn, the latter of whom at least have won a title).

Possibly if we could actually hold onto form for an entire season (Spurs always have one brilliant period in each season, which is then waylaid by a spectacular collapse), or if our players could run for more than five minutes without breaking a leg, we might actually at least push for a UEFA Cup place, which is about as much as we can hope for at the moment.

Also, not being perceived to be one of the big clubs means we've got sod all chance of signing anyone better than Emile Heskey, and are going to have to struggle to hold onto the likes of Davies and Carr in the closed season.

spurs are definitely in that group alongside everton and manchester city, that keep going on about how they are a 'big club'. each time it is said it proves further that they are not. arsenal or liverpool would never go on and on about how they are a big club. why? because it is obvious that they are, there is no need. going on about it is the preserve of teams like wolves. every tinpot team outside the premiership that gets more than 15,000 is obsessed that they are a 'big club' as well.

another interesting thing is a club like Blackburn becoming big as they did in the mid 90s, but despite winning the league and having all the cash did anyone really consider them a big club? i guess not - i suppose they would've had to have been more consistent to really earn that title.

if you only have one of those two factors you are no longer big...actually just having the second one WOULD qualify you, but there no clubs that fulfil the latter and not the former

the ability to take advantage of the huge new financial opportunities

the only thing spurs have going for them is history/name. but i dont see how this makes you different from accrington stanley or everton or whatever

i'm typing 'you' rather than 'them', ive just noticed. i dont remember you ever saying, but is spurs your team nick? i think what is needed here is the fan of a different club to tell us that spurs are a big club (everton dont count, because they are the tottenham of the north)

One of the things that annoy me most about being a Spurs fan is that I hate most other Spurs fans - as if they all think it is OUR RIGHTFUL PLACE to be in the Champions League every season.

I think international standing has a bit to do with it as well... do you need to be playing regular European football to be considered a big club in Premiership terms?

I don't think finance has anything to do with it, really... the only three teams actually making a profit in the Premiership are Man United, Spurs and Charlton, aren't they? There are a load of potential Leeds-esque disasters in the top half of the division, after all.

Spurs fan in wanting it to be 14 years ago shocker.

I suspect they were saying it like a mantra in the spring of '74 as relegation loomed. Or in 71-72 or 85-86 when huge early leads vanished. I suspect fans of every team that has some kind of historical claim to ongoing success and a large following are prone to thinking, "This can't happen to us, because we're us," in times of trouble.

I think I had my say on this topic back in the early days of the Liverpool-Everton thread. The bigness of historically successful clubs seems dwarfed now by the small cabal of giants who've dominated since the inception of the Premiership; the gap seems unbridgable in a way it probably never was before. And if the future encompasses some kind of super Euro league, the likes of Everton can forget any return to glory because nine titles, Dixie, Neville, Alex Young, Ball-Harvey-Kendall and Michael Foot being moved to verse will mean nothing next to a spell of financial mismanagement in the 90s and some incompetent coaching from Smith and Knox, cutting us off from the elite.

When at Thy call my weary feet I turn
The gates of paradise are opened wide
At Goodison I know a man can learn
Rapture more rich than Anfield can provide.
In Coulter's skill and Geldard's subtle speed
I see displayed in all its matchless bounty
The power of which the heavens decreed
The fall of Sunderland and Derby County.

The hands of Sagar, Dixie's priceless head
Made smooth the path to Wembley till that day
When Bolton came. Now hopes are fled
And all is sunk in bottomless dismay.

And so I watch with heart and temper cool
God's lesser breed of men at Liverpool.

I especially like the way it merely commemorates a Cup run - we didn't actually win anything that season.

Mike is right about the way the Premiership has changed things. But there are still Big Clubs.

Some Big Clubs in England: Manchester United, Liverpool, Everton, Arsenal, Tottenham Hotspur.

A couple of other big clubs: Leeds United, Aston Villa.

Big 90s growers: Chelsea, Newcastle United - they had size and grandeur in *some* sense before, but have grown financially as well as 'on the field' in recent years - that's the key.

Other relevant name: Blackburn Rovers, though their manager absurdly says 'we're a small club'.

A REAL poet - ie John Toshack - writes:

You Never Know

We battled hard through five tough rounds,
'Gainst foreign teams with funny sounds.
And then at last, the final game,
Eleven Germans are left to tame.

On Wednesday Shankly names a team,
But for one player a shattered dream.
His season's finished, blown away,
But he is still to have his say.

Rumour says they will attack,
But Netzer's playing at the back.
These Germans they can really play,
It doesn't look the Kopites' day.

Then just by chance it really pours,
Twenty two players are on all fours.
The referee says, 'That's Enough',
Will Liverpool call the German Bluff?

The Final, postponed for a day,
Will Shankly play a different way?
In comes Toshack in place of Hall,
Now will we see the Germans fall?

The Welshman kills them in the air,
Toshack and Keegan, what a pair!!
Liverpool win the game 3-0,
The Germans don't believe it still.

When I look back until this day,
I never really thought I'd play.
But then - suppose - just goes to show,
In the game of football you never know!!!!!

There are obviously some clubs that are big - Man Utd and Arsenal are the ones in England. The rest are not in the same league really IMO, though Arsenal's position is precarious due to their financial predicament, and United is so wrapped up in the Ferguson succession. What make me laff lots and lots is fans of clubs that are not these going on about being big clubs. Titter! bald men fighting over a comb etc.

Tottenham stopped being a big club in 1994 - they chose the wrong time to have to financially retrench. Ironically, Sugar was too disciplined - the vogue was to spunk cash everywhere, and he wouldn't. The gap opened to the extent it is now.

So, does big simply mean = immense financial clout feeding into a loop of Premiership-era success? In which case Souness's claims of smallness (and this is a club champions much more recently than Leeds, Liverpool, Everton, Spurs, etc) refers presumably to their breaking of that loop and all the money sloshing out in the late 90s, rather than never tasting recent success or gorging on money.

I can remember when Man Utd's bigness was *entirely* based on distant historical success and 'fans the world over'.

What fans are going on about being Big Clubs? This thread *asked* people if (for instance) Spurs are a Big Club, so people answered the question. I have not noticed hordes of fans of Spurs, Everton, Wolves, Sunderland or whoever dominating ilx in the past by going on about the size of their clubs.

Everton = 4th most successful club in English history as far as I can recall.

They are also a big club.

spurs fans. it is all they ever talk about. fortunately this only happens in london, because once you leave london there are no spurs fans. because only big clubs have fans in any number outside of their immediate catchment area

So that leaves us with Liverpool, Man U and Arsenal then?

And does the idea that big clubs have lots of fans outside their own city (putting aside for the moment the phenomenon of ex-pats/sponsorship, i.e. lots of Evertonians in South America/China) merely equate to successful teams attracting floating fans through their sheer excellence/fashionability?

Spurs fans are some of the most pessimistic I know, the bloke who used to sit behind my ex-flatmate in the Paxton would famously moan "toooo early" if Spurs went into the lead in the first half.

No real big club nonsense, although ex-flatmate was very fond of trotting out the better european record than Arsenal line.

I think they're a big club in terms of profile, but not in terms of influence

Gareth, you're not your usual self today it seems

and yes, that last bit about only those three is bollocks. Especially after running into the Newcastle United supporters association in Perth, Australia.

We're not pessimistic, we're just resigned to the fact that Spurs are going to finish 8th, 9th and 10th for all eternity.

We're not pessimistic, we're just resigned to the fact that Spurs are going to finish 8th, 9th and 10th for all eternity.

my point exactly, and put so well! ;o)

unsupportable positions tim? what do you mean?

ps, is it ok if i say huddersfield town are a big club too then? we have a big stadium, a few league titles, a long and distinguished history etc. sleeping giant!

Who were in the famous big 5 that always got talked about in the early 90's?

Manyoo
Liverpool
Spurs
Arsenal
Everton?
or Villa?

Huge clubs actually likely to win the league - Man Utd and Arsenal. And that's it.

ok, cross post with matt. i think i didnt realise that there were quite so many big clubs. i like this new word matt has come up with "huge" clubs. this seems a more sensible distinction, because the playing field sure isnt level.

so that would be, what, real madrid, inter, man u, liverpool, arsenal, bayer, milan. these really huge clubs, should get together and form an association or something, i dont know, there should be room for about 14 of them, and they could wield a lot more power than those mere 'big' clubs like villa

So aside from Arsenal, ManU & Liverpool, which are the 1 or 2 clubs with a crop of recent honours, Steve?

Chelsea have won about 5 cups in the last ten years...so lets call it 4 - i'd like to class Newcastle as a big club but without the trophies it doesnt seem right under my definition, tho they have at least been in contention for those more often than Spurs in recent years)

Liverpool, Man United, Arsenal, Chelsea, Aston Villa, Spurs, Everton, Leicester City, Blackburn Rovers. Have I missed anyone out?

This means that some big clubs can go through mediocre or unsuccessful spells (Leeds United remained a bigger club than Coventry City throughout the 80s, for example, despite the fact that Cov spent almost all that decade a division higher). So it is about history but it's not a direct relationship to something you can measure. Sunderland are a *much* bigger club than Southampton.

Thinking about it, I refute any attempt to equate club size with trophies won (of course winning trophies can help a club to grow...)

It is a continuum, obv.

This issue matters to fans of small clubs too, you know. But if anyone suggests I have an ulterior motive for not wanting to equate on-field success with club size, I'll be very cross.

There's several criteria for establishing a club's relative position. Traditionalists like me prefer things like League tables. But think about when a club is said to be big - it's usually when success on the pitch is thin - as a moan, or lament ie, 'we should do so much better for a club of our size (copyright Villa fans)' or 'a club as big as ours should be challenging for major honours every single year (Newcastle etc). But ultimately, there are clubs who have never really achieved much - I think it's about several factors, or which the main one is consistency and longevity. You've gotta do it for a long time - that's why Manyoo and Liverpool get in there, and Arsenal, well, need to win more trophies to be truly big. They're just quite large at the moment.

Do Man yoo fans go on about how massive they are (like Sunderland and Newcastle?). Not really - they have a different kind of arrogance which however annoying is at least based on something about which they can have good casue to be chuffed about. It tends to be a whine on 606 or some such bollocks, and that's why I hate big clubbism and big club references - my first reaction is 'oh yeah? You're not all that...'

Essentially:

there are club who have consistently been successful on the pitch over a reasonable length of time. There are clubs who might be able to join that pantheon - they have potential, usually based on playing performance. Some will always struggle to really join da big boys as they are limited in their geographical position for example. Others have all the cards - great stadium, large fanbase etc, but never really seem to make it to the next level. But they do have the potential if they make the key judgement any club makes - who is your manager? All else is a case of methinks the lady doth protest too much.

I also think that there can also be only 5 big clubs that consistently will challenge for the title every year, and can be predicted to do such. That is exacerbated by the uncompetitive revenue sharing which lowers that number in England. But most countries have a set of clubs who post-war have usually been there or thereabouts. Occasionally, someone shakes it up a bit, but overtime, the tendency is for the same teams.

They usually do this due to fortune - based in a city with large potential fanbase etc, but most have had an added slice of luck at the crucial time. Man Yoo had Munich. Liverpool got Shankly. Juventus had Superga happen to their city rivals, whereas Real Madrid had the entire Spanish State Apparatus. You get the idea.

What I do notice is that Man Yoo got luckiest of all by being the teamin the driving seat in 1992 when the big money and the uneven distribution came in. Others have spent massively - and speculatively - to catch them up, but like trying to climb a high fence and not quite making it, challengers have fallen away and face moments of crisis - Leeds had theirs this season, whereas Chelsea's and Liverpool might not be so far away. That's a change of sorts - we used to have a big 5, now we have a big one and a half, with another 2 and a half clubs trying to make the leap. The reason ultimately the Big 5 were the Big five of old is that they all stood a decent chance of winning the League. Since at the moment that's Man Yood and Arse, then by default they are the only big clubs. I think...ramble over.

ILX's hopeless romantic division at work?

I agree with Tim when he says Sunderland are ultimately much bigger than Southampton - Sunderland is classic football territory (much the same thing as Old Labour heartlands, except the South Wales valleys where rugby fills that role), and the Saints are old Third Division South staples from the sort of place where football was never as fundamental or as total, who've risen in the last few decades and stuck around as the gravity in England generally has shifted to the mid-South, places which have little to do with either heavy industry or agriculture, and are therefore in the best position to take advantage of the new rootless homogenised society and come to the forefront. Sunderland - city and club - has suffered from that, but in terms not only of number of supporters but the *meaning* of the team to those supporters, they are immense, however long they may spend outside the top flight (and the last 45 years have been grim indeed compared to their 68-year run in the old First Division from 1890-1958, but maybe that's just an apt parallel with deindustrialisation and, ultimately, Blairism - hey, Southampton Test was a key marginal for NuLab to gain in 1997 ...!)

Dave's line - that Spurs "chose the wrong time to have to financially retrench" - is spot on. In a football parallel universe where they took full advantage at the start of the Premiership, and pushed on from there, I guess they'd be roughly where Chelsea are now. Chelsea fans before about 1997 used to say they'd finish 9th for all eternity, didn't they ...?

I'm not sure about how this 'when the new order was crystallising in the early 90s' theory applies to Arsenal, however. Up to about 1995 (with the exception of that defence and the Cupwinners Cup runs), their team was pretty mediocre. Probably no better than Man City, Spurs or Everton nowadays.

I think ability to attract/hold onto top players is a factor that's not being considered here, especially WRT to clubs like Tottenham or Everton who have very talented youngish players who are bound to fuck off to Man U or Arsenal in the near future.

I'm not sure when the original notion of 'big clubs' was first mooted, but as others have pointed out, about 20 years ago the term came to mean, very specifically, the North London duo, the Merseyside duo and Manchester United (despite the fact that MU and TH hadn't won a championship since the 1960s). It's the slimming of this five and whether people think it's a permanent change that's interesting to me.

As suggested above, perhaps Spurs and Everton fans should just steer clear of this sort of discussion, as we can't claim any objectivity and end up defending/disavowing positions vaguely associated with our clubs ("You think you've a God-given right to be in Europe," or some such). So, I'll have one last splurge and then back to "Escape to Athena" with David Niven and Sonny Bono.

I think of the period when my Dad was following the Blues around the country - the postwar years when league success never seemed likely, relegation came in '51 and a run to the Cup semis in '53 was so extraordinary (allegedly taking 40,000 to the quarter-final at Villa) he still talks about it today (and not the championship wins of '63 and '70 or something). If there was talk of big clubs back then, EFC were totally out of the picture, except in the fanbase/geographical/historical sense. Then came Moores and Catterick and a club was transformed.

So, for all my pessimism above, I can't really settle for this idea that 'you're just a Southampton now', but I can't quite work out whether it's some long string of historical glue that keeps Everton in touch with a hint of glory, or whether there'd be the same buzz of expectation around, say, Birmingham City if they had Moyes and Rooney - whether this ghostly sense of history means that Spurs and Everton are more likely to emerge from the pack in the next decade than a Southampton or a Boro.

That hurt I have to say.

And the reason Man United are the biggest club in the country is not because of recent success but because they've consistently had the largest number of match-going supporters in the country (post-war, anyway). In the 26 title-less years, and even in the second division.

The word 'consistent' is why I wouldn't consider Chelsea or Newcastle to be big clubs, and why robin's right about Sunderland vs Southampton.

Actually I just wanted to disagree with something because I'm sore that he credited Robin with my Sunderland-Southampton point.

Pompey-Southampton is interesting.

I guess this is analagous to Everton and Spurs fans' position. But maybe fans need to have that inflated sense of importance, that deluded take on destiny, and the pressure that brings, for a club or country to stand any chance of becoming great again.

Tottenham want Charlton's player of the year Scott Parker and have reportedly bid £1m and Matthew Etherington for his services (so that's just £1m, then). Charlton's response? "If ever Scott was allowed to leave, it would be to a big club." That's as emphatic a "no" as you'll ever hear.

I agree that there is a lack of 'objectivity' around. Possibly this is inevitable, as football is a deeply partisan affair. I am part of that, as are many others on this thread.

However, on this particular thread it is not the Everton and Tottenham fans who have been unhelpfully 'partisan', but those others who have treated them with contempt.

Tottenham and Everton are big clubs - as are a number of others. If my view of this were excessively 'partisan' then I'd be denying that Arsenal, Liverpool, Chelsea and Leeds were big clubs: something I have no intention of doing.

Not necessarily so, pinefox. In Gareth's view it would be enough for you to deny that Wolves, Birmingham, Sunderland were big clubs. And if you don't deny that, then you think there are a lot of big clubs, which is fine, but you can see why in that case people have said "Fine, then let's call Man U, Arsenal and Liverpool 'huge clubs', then."

Sorry Tim - it was a long thread to read through is my only excuse.

Arse are a half big club - for the reasons over the financial uncertainty and the dodgy time ahead re: not much for players - existing players might scarper etc.

Liverpool - massive (huge, big, large) spend on player for not much. They are better placed I reckon as they have a bigger world wide fanbase than the Arse, but they need to reinforce that with some silverware. Liverpool are one title away from being a big club IMO. Or Huge club, depending on your terminology.

Just realised that I'd not mentioned anything about AFC in this thread. So here it is - we're absolutely fucking massively hugely big. For the Combined Counties League.

Man Yoo
Liverpool
Everton
Spurs
Arsenal

Though Man City used to considered in that. I remember reading an interview with Tommy caton in the Shoot 1981 Annual where he talks of rejecting the other big clubs in favour of the biggest club - man City.

"God, I hope Reading don't win tonight."
"Yeah, Wolves deserve to go up, don't they? They're a big club."

I kid you not.

Person who says 'deserve' for what happens on the pitch - fuck off an watch somkething else, like rugby or somesuch.

Or is an unguarded comment going to come back to haunt me?

http://www.thewolves.info/gberry.jpg

From January 1st up to and including Saturday September 13th, Spurs have lost 13 out of 23 games in all competitions, drawing four and winning just six. So that'll be Spurs winning six games since the start of the year. And one of them was against Sunderland.

I hate Spurs, I hate Glen Hoddle, and I hate Glen Hoddle. Glen Hoddle is a cunt. I hate Glen Hoddle.

We have conceded 48 goals since the turn of the year as well - the highest amount in the Premiership.

Another statistic - Glen Hoddle is a cunt.

This year we have lost to: West Ham, Birmingham, Middlebrough, Manchester City, Bolton, Liverpool, Blackburn, Southampton (twice), Newcastle, Chelsea, Fulham and Manchester United. We have also failed to beat Leeds, Liverpool, Fulham and Chelsea.

We have beaten however: Sunderland, Leeds, West Brom, Birmingham City, Everton and Aston Villa. Quality teams.

We have won one game this season. We have conceded more goals than anybody else except Wolves. Only two players have scored for Spurs this season. These are the sort of statistics that show what it is to be a Spurs fan.

I nearly paid £31 to watch Spurs lose to Southampton next Saturday. I am not going to the Lane again until Spurs sack Glen Hoddle. I hate Glen Hoddle. Glen Hoddle is a cunt.

That is all.

i can't think of any available/willing coach who could replace Hoddle and make the fans happy purely on appointment itself. tho i can see them appointing someone like Guus Hiddink

i went there last season to watch them draw a blank against Chelsea which was very frustrating (esp. after paying MORE than £31) but a small consolation was the Essex lads behind us shouting out 'Fackin Germans!' and 'I fackin 'ate Chelsea'

Hiddink? That's crazy talk. Terry Venables will be in the Spurs dugout by the end of the season, and all will be overly excitable at the Lane once again before the inevitable crushing disppointment.

I'd promote Pleat.

Pleat - yes! But no-one can rival Pompey's 'Arry and Bald Eagle double act in the old skool 'Mr Football' stakes. Maybe if Peter Shreeves was appointed Pleaty's deputy?

Q. - What does P1eat do to earn his salary? What the point of having him here?

8uchler - David P1eat is the finest spotter of young talent around...

Meeting descends into farce as 400 people simultaneously piss themselves

Oh, honestly. Try being relegated sometime. On the evidence of the last few threads, being a Spurs fan seems much more like an exercise in being delusional.

Being a fan of *any* club apart from those tiny few who are actually winning things at any given moment consists of a lot of pain and disappointments, but Tottenham fans are hardly long-suffering by any sensible measure.

But, Spurs will probably win their next 3 matches after all.

Still, no one in a position of power at Tottenham appears to understand quite how much trouble we're in.

Spurs always seem to have a few quid to throw away - but who was the last decent player they bought? Rednapp seems a spectacularly useless buy.

And bearing in mind everyone who knows the slightest bit about football can see that the real problem with the Spurs team is the lack of a decent ballwinner or any real creativity in midfield - Pleat's solution at going 1-0 down is to withdraw what little midfield we have and overload the pitch with two expensive strikers who can't score anyway.

The only players who look like they give a shit these days are Robbie Keane, who should not be playing for a bottom-three club, and Rohan Ricketts, who's a Gooner.

Last decent signing = Kanoute, clearly. Robbie and Fredi have the makings of a truly great striking partnership, if only they had a half-decent team behind them. Redknapp was signed on a free, I think.

Redknapp didn't cost anything, but don't forget the wages. Simon Davies may come back soon, and Brown may or may not be a good signing, depends if his injury problems persist.

Come back Steffan Freund!

On a happier note, Spurs are 3rd in my game of FIFA 2004, just thumped Arsenal 4-0. Toda is a great player!

sigh. if this sounds unfair to our bilbo baggins caretaker perhaps it is. But lets at least admit that he has been a constant throughout the years of decline (fuck 1987 he was yong then).
And i refuse to blame the board. It's a manager's job to restrucure the club in his own vision, that's what O'Neill would do if he came.
The board take care of the money side. And if they raise 15 mill this jan that will be what, 45 mill they've stumped up so far. You can't complain about that. You CAN complain about it being spent on Postiga, or Richards for twice his value.

massive x-post, will read those posts now!

Matt 'Rohan Ricketts is a gooner'.

So fucking what!??!
So's Thierry Henry! You gonna be the one to turn him down!!
That's just the kind of spurs insularity i HATE.

'Come back Steffan Freund'

erm, no, jel.

I want Steffen Freund back - someone who can actually TACKLE and gives us at least a bit of a spine in midfield, although being able to pass the ball would be a plus. Hopefully Michael Brown might provide that but I'd be happier with someone like Nicky Butt, which is frankly wishful thinking at the moment. I reiterate the Robbie Savage sentiments upthread.

I notice that no Spurs fans were making Pleat the scapegoat until a couple of months ago. It's also nonsense to state that Pleat has been a "constant" during the decline of the club when he's only been back at the Lane since 1998.

I fear its more of a malaise that goes right to the centre of the everyday culture of the club - I'd say that players were playing for a move but at least then they'd be actually playing like a team in the shop window.

I'm more and more of the conclusion that we need someone like Alan Curbishley who'll provide a bit of stability and team spirit, which have been the cornerstones of Charlton's success. But I doubt that'll satisfy most Spurs fans.

Chelsea a big club? Do me a favour......

Yes, I know, we are not Exeter City, but it doesn't stop me worrying that we could become Sheffield Wednesday fairly shortly.

You suspect right, Mike. I was in Form 4 in the UK in 1974 (following an infuriatingly hot-and-cold West Ham who at least gave me an FA Cup win as a going-away present in 1975), and despite living at the wrong end of the M1 from Manchester, about one in three of my classmates followed Manooted and spent the entire spring and summer of 1974 singing 'we'll support you evermore'.

"I suspect fans of every team that has some kind of historical claim to ongoing success and a large following are prone to thinking, 'This can't happen to us, because we're us,' in times of trouble."

Also absolutely correct. Down Oz way most of the historical big fish in the much smaller AFL pond have had to deal with that, quite recently, and I suspect the same syndrome may be about to afflict the Australian cricket team, even if (maybe especially if) we get out of this Indian series.

From my observations since the 70s Spurs have rarely (tho not never) been a 'leading club'. From memory they were quite lucky not to replace Manooted in Div 2 in 1975. They won two Cup finals in a row in the Villa-Ardiles-Hoddle (as players) era, and another (poss two) in the early 90s, but I also recall the Sugar-Venables fiasco (I was holidaying in the Yook when that blew up) especially now that Leeds are going through something similar. Those sort of things aren't meant to happen at Big Clubs.

A speculative question to throw in, then depart the thread and sit back and watch the fun: 'What sort of undercurrent among Spurs people may there be that whispers 'our ability to make headlines is evidence of, even part of, our bigness'? Discuss.

It's pure racism, greed and a filthy superiority complex on behalf of the patronising white, rich, European "elite". Disgusting.

Incidentally, Robbie Keane is eligible for Chad.

(Different sport but possibly indicative of an attitude: A few years ago, didn't one of the English cricket counties try to sue the West Indies Test CB for inducement to breach a contract, when a player turned up for his county season injured after breaking down in a Test match? What were the county expecting the player to say: 'Sorry Richie/Brian/whoever, I can't bowl three spells a day, I need to save myself so I can bowl a hundred overs a week for five months for Mediocreshire.')

This is nonsense. Kanoute is FRENCH. Don't try telling me he wouldn't want to play for France if he was good enough, any more than Patrick Viera is likely to want to play for Senegal. You can't really blame the club or the country if FIFA decide to change the rules to the extent they have.

Obviously, holding the African Nations Cup right slap bang in the middle of the season, when the majority of the top African players play in European leagues is a bit silly - but I suspect holding it right in the middle of a hot African summer is equally insane. Quite why there isn't a break in the season for the cup just like there is for every other international tournament or qualifier mystifies me.

midwinter breaks are too unfeasible for the Premiership (more games than Serie A including cup matches and whatnot)

Africa Nations should maybe be every 4 years instead of every 2 if they want it to be taken more seriously and for European clubs to respect it more - a little more compromise may be required

Possible argument: we SHOULD be able to afford to lose Kanoute cos we have Postiga and Zamora too.

10 Aston Villa 19 -4 24
11 Everton 19 -2 23
12 Bolton 19 -8 23
13 Man City 19 0 21
14 Blackburn 19 -3 21
15 Middlesbrough 18 -4 21
16 Portsmouth 19 -8 19
17 Leicester City 19 -3 18
18 Tottenham 19 -10 18
19 Leeds United 19 -22 17
20 Wolves 18 -23 14

international footie should be fundamentally in the interests of representing your country; kanoute very suddenly opting for long-lost mali at a crucial stage of the season so's he can hedge his bets and put himself in the shop window just in case doesnt really compare. this is the floundering of a feckless mercenary

I could be mistaken.

Mike -- happy new year!! (er - 2003, that is - it's only 8pm; but as the Psychedelic Furs' Richard Butler did not quite say, all time is forever new. And on *that* bombshell...)

Also Mali are one of the better sides in Africa at the moment so for someone like Pleat to treat them as if they're nohopers is a bit... pathetic. They've also got Sidibe (Gillingham) I think who's always impressed me.

Yes Spurs' sympathetic approach will obv help them attract future internationals to the Lane.

I mean... SWEET FUCKING JESUS when you're in a hole stop digging Pleat. I know I'm doing a complete u-turn on this but we are going the right way towards losing our best striker at the end of the season.

Hodgson would be the wrong choice I think.

They should leave him alone.

I don't know where Mali is. 50% of ilx posters probably don't.

R5's pundit saying 'Er, it's in Africa, David - that's why it's the African Cup of Nations?' - an imbecilic attempt to jump on an aggressive bandwagon.

What Kanoute should do, I do not know.

As said before, Postiga and Zamora 'ought' to be cover enough.

50% of ilxors might not know where mali is, but i'd hazard those particular employees dont have a sensitive situation regarding Mali that is taking up a lot of their time. i'd also hazard a guess that those 50% dont also proudly state they dont know where Mali is in order to try and gain the upper hand in a PR battle

No, I don't think they *will* be cover enough - but I think they 'ought to be'.

Zamora and Postiga are goal worriers of the lowest calibre.

Gareth is correct above.

That said, as Jonnie pointed out the other day, if Kanoute keeps up his current form he's a bit of a mug not to hold out for France, it's got to be between him and Cisse for third choice???

Pleat continued: "We have to look at the long term. I am going to need Freddie later in the season and you cannot, in the end, go against a man's will.

"Let me tell you that Kanoute is a gentleman, a Muslim and an honourable person. He has said to me: 'I am not a boy. I am a man. You have to respect my feelings', and I do respect his feelings.

I recall a Spurs vs West Ham game where the report said: Freund or Foe?

It's smileable.

I would not call him a 'git'.

On reflection I think that Kanoute *should* be allowed to go. Hoddle bought 3 strikers in the summer, not one. The club's retention of these players implies that they are OK for the first team. Postiga and Zamora would be adequate for most clubs outside, say, the top 3. Zamora could do a good job for Charlton or Fulham, I dare say. So let him and Postiga fight to fill Kanoute's boots, and to play well enough to make it hard for Kanoute to get back in when he returns from a refreshing and inspiring African campaign.

I can only refer you to what I have already said.

"Jimmy Greaves...and so do we"

(D. Pleat. Funny names. Hmmmm....not much to work on there.)

Granted it's not up there with Glen Campbell's "I'm a linesman at Notts County" but it'll do, sunny jim.

Still my favourite.

Matt - I promise I didn't see your thread and you will simply have to believe me or sue.

I do not however consider this their 'true level'.

Nor, though, will I dare to claim that either will score again this season.

I don't rate Ricketts and was glad we never bought him. I thought we should sign Christie at one point, but maybe that wouldn't have been a great idea either.

Actually, I don't think the idea of Trapattoni at Spurs is *that* fanciful. On the other hand I'm not sure its a particularly good one - the man speaks virtually no English and I'm sceptical that his tactics would work in the Premiership. Would Alex Ferguson be any good in Serie A with minimal Italian?

He would, however, attract some top players to the club, even if they would almost certainly be a bit long in the tooth and looking for a big Premiership cash pile at the end of their career.

Mind you, he says he wants a break from top flight football, so maybe the Spurs job would suit him *ducks*

Can you imagine how Rupert Lowe would react to that? He hates Spurs so much already!

Ha ha!

Big Cas's writing style is as clumsy as his footballing style. Still got to love him though.

Our central defenders, Doherty and Anthony Gardner, were fantastic and I told them that when they go to bed tonight they should think of each other.

He's been by far your best player this season.

I have consistently praised Dalmat and hope very much that he stays.

I think Tottenham might finish in the top half of the table. It seems possible.

Tottenham 4 Portsmouth 3

The Hard Way! The Tottenham Way!

Defoe scores on his debut, Richards costs us at least one goal but sets up the winner with his head, Portsmouth score as many away goals here as they have all season....fun fun fun

incidentally Everton 3 Man Utd 4

Reports that Defoe put in a transfer request on Wednesday at 10:30 pm are unconfirmed (its still good)

We need to sign the entire Middlesbrough back four this summer.

Totally different feeling to Defoe (who couldn't give a flying cock about West Ham).

Defoe, Kanoute and Keane up front together. There's potential there. But, so there was with Defoe, Kanoute and Di Canio. Nothing's certain.

I am of course aware that it is ludicrous posturing to use my lack of attendance as some kind of threat when I haven't been to White Hart Lane since August. But then I'm a Spurs fan, ludicrous posturing is what I'm good at.

I've just reread this entire thread... it is almost certainly the best football thread on ILE. The idea of offering Charlton £1m plus Matthew Etherington for Scott Parker makes me smile.

The worst thing about the Leicester game was the fact that their team contained FOUR Tottenham rejects (Walker, Thatcher, Freund, Ferdinand). None of them would get into the Tottenham first team these days*, except Footballing Genius Freund, who I wish was still here.

*I have no idea what the first-choice Spurs XI is at this stage. In terms of attack, that squad is HUGE these days.

I still have a soft spot for them, although technically I'm a neutral. they were my team growing up. Loads of my age group support Spurs because we got into football around 90/91 (Gazza, Lineker, Venables, FA Cup, etc).

Teletext reckons Fabio Capello is interested in the Spurs job. Haha!

"When, if ever, did you stop thinking Tottenham were one of The Big Girl's Blouses?"

robert "primrose" Wilson

Not forgetting Joan Gaspart, former Barcelona president.

Aki Riihilati (if he were Japanese rather than Finnish). Or for that matter, if I can change sports for a moment, Mika Hakkinen.

Not sure how Taffarel qualifies...

I have no idea what Pleat's first choice XI is at this point.

This year's Deloitte & Touche survey of football finances reveals that Spurs are 15th richest club in Europe, and the 6th richest in the Premiership. However, 'richest' just refers to income, rather than Russian coffers. I don't really understand why, if Juventus and Inter are richer than Real Madrid, they don't spend more on players. I thought that Real had huge debt financing all their Galactici, but apparently this isn't so.

I am glad that my glamorous assistant has remembered to do it for me.

Juventus and Inter

Sorry - mean Juventus and AC Milan.

The key figure in a club is the income and the debt-ratio; that determines what you can spend on players...and you shouldnae be spending more than 60%...

I remain utterly gutted that Leeds didn't sell him when figures like £22m were being bandied about a few seasons back. I think Celtic only get 10%, but 10% of £6.5m bought us Henrik Larsson...

So who's this bloke Wimbledon have signed?

Spurs aren't in that bad a position financially, I would've thought, Rebrov write-offs notwithstanding - you look at the assets in there as far as young players go. Surely we'd make a huge profit off Carr, King, Davies, Keane, Kanoute and Defoe at any rate if they continue to play the way they have been. Postiga is possibly the exception here.

How much debt are Spurs in? Not that much in relative terms, I don't think.

Top: Portsmouth
Bottom: Spurs

If that cheating Pires had been seen by a decent Ref - Pompey would have grabbed all 3 points.

I danced around with the tang of waffle and honey flooding the room, and the noise of our fans over the radio battling the sweet birdsong of Spring.

(Visions of The P F as Fotherington Thomas flud my brane.)

It implies desperation to me.

DC, what do you reckon re. the real substance of that report, which is re. O'Neill?

I still think it will be Ranieri, Hiddinck or *ack* Antic.

So, so, um, it's not true, is it? What would Williamson do?

We're going to sign Van Bommel, we're going to sign Van Bommel...

Most importantly, technical director doing all the transfer wheeling and dealing = NO HARRY REDKNAPP AT THE LANE! HURRAH!

Anyway, I reckon Spurs will sign Diego after all, and Andy Reid eventually.

Meanwhile: is anyone going to be in central London to watch the UEFA Cup Final tonight?

BRING.
IT.
ON.

Christian Gross

Oh, my goodness!

COR BLIMEY!!

It must be a hoax!

For exciting times make it Santini

PS: woah!

Tottenham next season:

Robinson

Carr, King, Mexes, Lizarazu

Davies, Davids, Van Bommel, Rothen

Keane, Defoe

Well, we can dream.

I do not claim that this will happen. But I do like the idea of the manager who's just won the European Championship taking over at Tottenham. It almost, arguably, beats Mourinho, let alone Benitez.

I think at least one of the new names will realistically turn up at the Lane next season, probably Lizzy.

Apparently, Santini speaks worse English than Pleat.

If France crash and burn now I'll be pissed off.

The most important thing is that he and Arnesen will make Tottenham look like a serious club again, and players will actually want to sign for Spurs. If we're really lucky, Carr's agent will stop whoring him round every other club in the Premiership.

Plus we would laugh so hard we might die

I am not lying. I'd say Italy have a shout, and Spain might come good. Doubtful though.

Latvia, you dark horse, your time is ripe.

He also wins my vote cos he used to play for my beloved Saint Etienne in their great 70s team (pre-Platini contrary to popular myth).

France winning Euro 2004 would be a good omen - wouldnt it? - mind you, the last time we signed a World Cup winner we promptly got hammered 0-7 at Anfield on the way to a mediocre 11th followed by an all-too-contemporaneous 14th the next season..

Who will finish higher, Tottenham or Everton?

I say, Tottenham.

Spurs looked so much better in attack with Robbie Keane and Simon Davies on the pitch - here's hoping they can both stay fit. The Sky commentators were talking about Norwich 'holding' Tottenham to a draw yesterday, in the past the assumption was that anyone could beat Spurs fairly easily.

Deadly Ledley's tackle on Darren Huckerby straight-on-goal only increased my respect for him.

Keane actually seems good at getting fit. Davies doesn't. I thought you didn't like Davies!

I think we must all be Working.

I think they'll finish well above Everton - I see Spurs in the top half this season, and I think Everton will struggle near the bottom.

A point at the Bridge would be good.

So much hinges on whether we can hang onto Jermaine Defoe during that January transfer window. If he carries on playing the way he is then I don't like our chances if a bigger club comes in with an offer*.

*The Jermaine Defoe Transfer Test is the one purely scientific measure of Big Clubbism.

I wish Freddie would score a goal sometime. I think he might end up at Southampton...

"I know people are talking about Chelsea and Arsenal, but that may be good for Manchester United, " Mourinho said.

"People say it is a fight between Chelsea and Arsenal and they want to see who will be first to drop points. This may be good for Manchester United. They have a fantastic squad and are a wonderful team.

"When they play well, they play amazing football. They are not out of it, and nor are Liverpool. And you cannot forget other teams, like perhaps Tottenham. But maybe it is a year too soon for them."

Maybe Chelsea last year as well, if you include the 17 goalkeepers they bought in and rarely used.

Portsmouth are 64th
Southampton are 91st

http://www.eurofootsie.com/modules.php?name=Fdesc

The Eurofootsie, a computer-generated ranking of Europe's top football clubs, is based on each club's performance over its past 50 games (domestic and European). It was first launched in January 1995 and published each week in the Wall Street Journal Europe up to January 2000. As of September 2003, it will be featured regularly in the Times newspaper. A similar ranking system for European rugby clubs was launched in April 2000.

Updated every Tuesday evening, the Eurofootsie aims to provide an invaluable form guide for those wishing to compare the best teams in Europe.

Eurofootsie covers up to 600 clubs from Europe's Premier Leagues (1). Each week, the results of all domestic league and cup games (2) as well as European ties are fed into the computer. As with any league, points are awarded to teams for winning or drawing a match. The Eurofootsie, however, takes account of many other factors:...

i'm going to nick it for TMFD tomorrow (and give credit where it's due obv ;))

Real Zaragoza in 13th place???? mindless

WTF?!!!!!

this euro table is based on performances of the last 50 matches.

even with co-efficients and all that bollocks, Albacete above Newcastle = aspo madness

Probably due to this:

Newly promoted teams will be given a provisional rating after 25 games.

at the start of the season - not all clubs are included - also if the teams at the bottom of this table perform better in recent mathches they can go up the table. Also the football season starts/ ends at different times in different countries.

Some of last seasons relegated clubs have dropped off the table - and the new teams have yet to register. Therefore some clubs at the bottom have risen.

chris this is as acceptable as any other ranking system shurely :)

no stoopid criteria e.g we won the cup/ league decades ago, ground capacity, money mis-spent on transfers, support base across the country. It's what you do on the football pitch that counts.

dave and chris, i'm surprised to see you in favour of a european superleague (and one with 1000 matches per seaon in it at that!)

Barry, are you Pearce in disguise ;o)

Spurs are tough.

I love Thimee Atouba - no one knows what he's going to do! Including himself. Also he is a brick shithouse. Tottenham needed a few more heavyweights.

Mendes is looking good as well - he put a lovely pass through to Defoe. But otherwise Terry had Defoe's number for most of the game.

I'd like us to actually score some goals or win some games mind. At this rate we'll go through the season unbeaten and still go down.

King will never go to Arsenal. He has character. He'll be lining up at Manyoo or Liverpool instead.

Waddle defends Tottenham

By Dan Warren

Waddle made 177 appearances for Spurs in the 1980s
Tottenham great Chris Waddle has hit back after Chelsea boss Jose Mourinho accused Spurs of negative play.

Waddle said Mourinho's criticism of Tottenham after the 0-0 draw at Stamford Bridge on Sunday was unfair.

"What does he want, Spurs to come to Chelsea, play four up front and lose 5-1 or 6-1?" Waddle told BBC Sport.

"Football's all about systems, getting the players to work hard and defending the goal. That's what Tottenham did on Sunday and they did it well."

Waddle, who made 177 appearances and scored 42 goals for Spurs from 1985-89, said Mourinho had to accept that teams would be happy to get a point at Stamford Bridge this season.

"Chelsea are in the bracket of Manchester United and Arsenal now. They've got to get used to it," he said.

"(Previous Chelsea boss) Claudio Ranieri never used to moan about teams coming to the Bridge and playing a system.

"Mourinho should be used to it anyway, in the Champions League with Porto.

"Most of his Porto teams went away and defended. They came and robbed Manchester United when they won 2-1 last season - they never really had an attack."

Mourinho believes he's the best manager and he believes, probably, that he's the best-looking manager

Mourinho's comments - when he said Spurs "brought the bus and left the bus in front of the goal" - would not be well received by fans, Waddle added.

"It's maybe because of pressure that he says things like that, but he's brought it on himself," he said.

"He comes across with an arrogance. He likes to hear himself talk.

"He's got an arrogant presence and a lot of people will, maybe, hope he struggles because it seems like he looks down on people.

"His comments sound a bit like sarcasm. I don't think people can relate to that.

"Ranieri was a man of the people but Mourinho's completely different.

"He believes he should be at Chelsea, he believes he will win the league and he believes he's the best manager. And he believes, probably, that he's the best-looking manager."

Spurs, like Chelsea, made wholesale changes during the close season, bringing in 14 players.

But Waddle said he had been impressed with how the new players had united so early in the season.

"I watched the Chelsea match and I thought Spurs were very disciplined," he said.

"The one thing Spurs have been over the past few years is fragile at the back, conceding too many goals and losing too many matches.

"I think now they've brought in Nourredine Naybet who's a very experienced player in the Spanish league and they're playing Ledley King in the right position.

"The acquisitions of Erik Edman and Paul Robinson have made them a stronger side defensively.

"I think Tottenham will definitely be top 10 this season. And they're a good outside bet for the sixth spot."

as a wind-up merchant, jose's a genius.

and in answer to the title thread, i've never thought of spuz as a big club.

I was in Costcutters today, and at the payment desk this formerly-Nigerian guy started to talk to me, saying "England will win the next World Cup!" It seemed an odd opening gambit, but then he went on to explain that King and Defoe would be the star players. And that Nigeria would win the following World Cup, with his son playing (he's a 13 year old on Spurs' books). And that Tottenham would win the Premiership this season. You meet nutters everywhere.

Possibly the man whom Mr Hopkins calls 'the excellent McCarra' was correct, and Mourinho was seeking to deflect attention from other matters.

I don't think that Atouba's bulk is proving much of a virtue thus far. I would be happy if it did.

DJ Martian: Well, I"m glad you asked me DJ Martian!

Jel? Matt Dc? the Pinefox?

Defence was all over the place tonight and we gave the ball away far too often in midfield. I still think Mendes is class and Davies is looking bright again but in terms of getting balls up to Defoe and Keane we were frankly poor. Atouba is looking ponderous and takes far too long on the ball, on the other end of the spectrum Keane is taking to worryingly firing the ball off anywhere on his first touch rather than using a bit of control, heaven knows he has enough of it. Carrick gave the ball away on every occasion he had it.

I can just imagine it:

Arnesen - Excellent. You have passed your medical. Anything else you want to tell us, Nourredine?
Naybet - Yes, I don't eat for one month a year.
Arnesen - That's excellent. We're trying to get Paul Robinson to do the same thing.

Martian and Alba: good comedy.

Tottenham are plainly a big club because their fans have other things to do than post to messageboards in the evening.

I guess Atouba looks even more ponderous this morning.

he only passes the ball forward. in a straight line. at height.
not good for our diminutive strikers.

or else he shoots. from anywhere.

davies was bad last night. and carrick didn't bother after coming on.

not a bad performance otherwise. shit goal to give away. oh well.

We could have won that, but we threw it away completely - the moment when Robinson clattered into King, dropped the ball and gave it straight to to Arsenal was worthy of Doherty and Richards in their pomp.

But seeing Reto Ziegler accidentally kick Van Persie in the bollocks REALLY HARD was funny.

I'm still more excited than pissed off. I don't know what would I would have done if it had ended 5-5.

"You could've had Pat Jennings on Gordon Banks's shoulders and they still wouldn't have got anywhere near that one!" - Glenn Hoddle, after the match.

ironic that both king and naybet scored, yet didn't even attempt to defend throughout the ninety minutes. best midfield performance in a while though.

does robbie keane look bored to anyone else?

This game, Tranmere v Brentford, comes pretty close.

I seem to remember a 6-6 draw involving Tranmere in some minor Cup in the 80s. I've never been able to verify this on Google (I haven't tried all that hard).

(Other answers to my question are probably going to be of the cricket score variety, rather than the Tranmere-Bradford/Spurs-Arsenal variety. Australia-Guam in the World Cup or something, where the physio probably scored a couple.)

Australia put about 30 past American Samoa not that long ago, didn't they? Should maybe go and look for scorers for that.

That's just not on, is it? A bit like Andre Agassi, as a teenager and before he knew better, murderizing Martin Jaite something like 6-2 6-2 5-0 in a Davis Cup tie and catching a lame second serve to gift Jaite a game. He couldn't understand why people booed.

Also on Saturday - Paul Robinson crossing the halfway line to take a free kick and basically trying to tonk it into the goal from there.

Greatest goalie penalty = Ricardo in Euro 2004 :)

I saw Gillingham beat Chesterfield 10-0 once (keeper sent off in first couple of minutes - good old Jim Brown) but I think someone scored 6 in that

Not quite the glamour of a North London derby but I'm sure the 1000 or so who turned up found it exciting.

I remember Everton spanking Wimbledon 8-0 in the League Cup in 78-79 and only two players scored (Latchford 5, Dobson 3).

I think Onimo's QOS-Morton eleven-goal bonanza wins (at least domestically).

rohan ricketts, midfield general.

jolly jol

The first half was pretty abysmal though, with hardly anything going right. We were probably lucky Quederue was sent off when he was.

And thank fuck someone has FINALLY had the bright idea of playing Ricketts out wide considering he has always played well before being mystifyingly dropped to the bottom of the pecking order. I'd like to see him do well.

(only seen one defeat, too)

a big club is top 40? top 50?

Redknapp will be gone during the transfer window, won't he? Being below Rohan Ricketts and Michael Brown in the pecking order is not where any club captain wants to be.

Jol this morning:
"we can't win anythings"

nice one.

Good line, but for me, Matt... that - one falls ... a bit - flat.

Everything looked so promising though. King and Robinson HUGE at the back despite first half Man Utd onslaught, and we controlled the game in the second half. If only we'd had Kanoute upfront with Keane, he really seemed to be struggling up there on his own.

But watching Reto Zeigler dub up TWO Man Utd players at once was brilliant. He's 18, but if he can sort out his slightly dodgy passing he could be a great player. And Pedro Mendes IS the best Spurs player, some of his passing on the first touch is astonishing.

*Except when the ball clearly goes over the line of course ;)

if everybody who saw the game agreed it was a goal, is there really any huge problem in overturning the result and awarding Spurs two points (thus deducting Utd one) ? i know it will never happen but it wasn't an offside issue, it's fucking clear as day - i doubt UEFA would mind thaaat much, go on The FA, ah go on now...ah go on etc.

Lets invent a cliched but true sentiment like...'evens out over a season'!

Football is not a morality play. It's a game! Sometimes the best teams don't win. Sometimes, the teams who win become the best teams by that performative dint.

As for video replays - worst idea ever.

Still - if we miss out on a UEFA place by 1 or 2 points (and the possible springboard it could bring), we know who and what to blame.

xpost

I wasn't much of a purist back then, but I was only about 11.

Milk bottles are notoriously blind, adam, couldn't you have used potatoes or something?

I can see the use of certain technological devices; video replays to deal with a rare incident aren't it and are just gimmicks. More than that though, they're gimmicks which will spread to other parts of the game.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v111/coop75/carroll_gaffe2.jpg

still haven't seen the goal on tv, but looking at dave's picture (amusing photoshop notwithstanding!) it seems incredible that they could have missed something so far over the line.

http://skysports.planetfootball.com/images/playerpics04_05/football/live/carroll_gaffe.jpg

On MotD, it seemed the lino was looking down as he ran to follow play - I think he was concentrating so hard and just wasn't prepared for the fuck-up that was Carroll tonight (see earlier spillage of the ball).

Niemi to thread. Or OT more likely.

Sadly it was Gordon McQueen, Marsh would surely have exploded.

Never a goal!

Never a goal!

The argument that 'the rewards are so big we must have it' kind of points out that maybe the rewards have become too important.

Anyways...never a goal!

http://img21.exs.cx/img21/5952/post-1-1104886332.gif

had it been England we'd probably be at war by now. had it been Brazil the ref would be dead.

yes, more wage caps less international caps!

I did spend a lot of my first post praising our players, y'know. This is the best Spurs team I've seen in over 12 years. We still won't beat Chelsea though. I also admired the way both players and manager reacted to the situation. Had this been United or Arsenal they would have surrounded the ref and all hell would have broken loose.

Didn't anyone want to laugh in my face after New Year's Day?

It was my New Years resolution not to laugh in any more faces. Plus I'd been asleep all day and didn't even find out the result until two hours after the final whistle ;)

As I said on the EFC-LFC thread (which I'm sure no one outside of me, Gerry Marsden and Ed "Stewpot" Stewart reads), I think Spurs have a great shot at 4th. You'll need 66pts, mind.

Er, making sure the goalie is behind the line is a good thing for penalties. Or is moving 3 yards forward is a good thing? Come on hysterical overreacting to minor incidents blown out of proportion by a breathelss media machine game changers, debunk that one!

But 43pts = what we finished with in '99 and '02, one more than we finished with in '97 and '01 and three more than '98. A draw at Boro Saturday week and we equal 93-94's total of 44. Best season since 87-88 is the target.

BOUNCEBACKABILITY!

I think we are playing well enough for a 4th-placed team NOW but that abysmal run in the Santini-Jol transition period has put paid to that. If we carry on playing like this then 6th is good, but I'm worried that everything could crumble if there's a serious injury to King or Robinson (AKA The Team Bus), or if the strikers all suddenly go off the boil at once.