Rhetorical Flourishes You Can't Stand

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I was thinking about this coming into the library today and I can't really stand 'grow up'. It's this sort of easy out to the person who casts it because there's no concrete reply you can give to it, I think, other than volley it back at them ('no, you grow up'). It bites quite hard as well and doesn't even look for a response.

Another one is 'you're drunk' - which, I think, is quite a patronising response to someone saying things at you that you don't want to hear but even though you're right that they are drunk. I mean, it is patronising but it's also quite often true but the fact that it's patronising causes negates that truth and loses you the moral high ground.

What rhetorical flourishes (I can't think of a better word right now, it's hot) do you like to use and what ones frustrate you much?

― David. (Cozen), Thursday, 7 August 2003 09:08 (twenty-two years ago)

But don't you think "grow up" would be an appropriate response to, say, Calum? And wouldn't "you're drunk" be a completely veracious accusation for, say, someone who's patently drunk?

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Thursday, 7 August 2003 09:12 (twenty-two years ago)

I absolutely ABHOR people who say 'at the end of the day...'. Not so much a rhetorical flourish as a longer way of saying 'errrrrrrrm'. Much beloved of sportsmen and talk show participants. IT MUST GO!

― Archel (Archel), Thursday, 7 August 2003 09:17 (twenty-two years ago)

I am very much in favour of 'stop showing off in frony of your friends'

[Oi Archel - there are other threads for general gripes about crappy phrases.]

― N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 7 August 2003 09:19 (twenty-two years ago)

I am afraid of this thread, current responses notwithstanding. Within 100 posts, threads like this include every phrase in the english language.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Thursday, 7 August 2003 09:19 (twenty-two years ago)

"Grow up" is a good insult *because* it's so annoying, no?

I switch off when telesales/customer service people start using phrases they obviously have on a piece of paper in front of them to deal with whatever you have to say, especially if it's negative. Especially when they use the anti-aggression script. I didn't call *you* to shout at you, you called me. I can shout all I like.

― Mark C (Mark C), Thursday, 7 August 2003 09:20 (twenty-two years ago)

I had a phone call from a cousin earlier in the year and it was the first time I'd spoken to him since I was little and he's much older and I always thought he was impossibly cool and he completely destroyed this preconception by saying "all things being equal" five times per sentence.

― Alex in Rotherham (Alex in Doncaster), Thursday, 7 August 2003 09:20 (twenty-two years ago)

N., "At the end of the day" IS a rhetorical flourish. What's your beef?

― Mark C (Mark C), Thursday, 7 August 2003 09:21 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh, I never disputed that it's good - but that's why it's so bad. It's unfair.

― David. (Cozen), Thursday, 7 August 2003 09:21 (twenty-two years ago)

Alex, don't you ever find you can hear yourself repeating the same banality, then get self-conscious, mentally clam up, and all you have left to say is said banality which is going over and over in your brain? I certainly do.

― Mark C (Mark C), Thursday, 7 August 2003 09:22 (twenty-two years ago)

My beef is that David is asking about phrases that are used to try and score points in arguments.

― N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 7 August 2003 09:22 (twenty-two years ago)

Which is an interesting, specific subject.

― N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 7 August 2003 09:23 (twenty-two years ago)

It IS used to try to score points. By inartiuclate people who want to sound like they are making a wise universal statement.

― Archel (Archel), Thursday, 7 August 2003 09:27 (twenty-two years ago)

Mark I think N was just trying to keep this away from becoming another thread where we construct evil bastard straw men out of people who say "excuse me" or "could you direct me to oxford street please".

"At the end of the day" is annoying I guess, I'm sure I say it all the time though, I am more a fan of "the long and short of it is".

Going back to the topic, I agree that "You're drunk" and "grow up" are fairly snappy beatdowns. "Grow up" when used by youngish people, generally just means "shut up", usually used when someone is trying to make a point or be passionate. I presume everyone else hates those people who will interrupt a civil but animated argument by saying "oh come on, grow up both of you" or "ok thats enough" etc etc.

I've only heard "you're drunk" from my mother, a few months ago she said "you're drunk, i seriously think you may be an alcoholic", I laughed oafishly cos I was drunk. Can't remember any friends hitting me with "you're drunk", they'd probably just cut to the chase and say "shut up Ronan".

Which is definitely fairer, I'd treat them with the same respect.

― Ronan (Ronan), Thursday, 7 August 2003 09:29 (twenty-two years ago)

I mean 'score points' as in 'undermine their opponent by using a cheap trick'

Threads for general gripes about useless phrases:

Most irritating cliche/phrase/expression
Four Words: Use Other Words Please
"Taking Things to a Whole `Nother Level!"
Commonly used phrases that inexplicably bug you
Use other phrases please

― N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 7 August 2003 09:30 (twenty-two years ago)

...but he was OLDER and IMPOSSIBLY COOL, so he had no right to get self-consciously mentally-clammed up.

― Alex in Rotherham (Alex in Doncaster), Thursday, 7 August 2003 09:32 (twenty-two years ago)

What about GREAT rhetorical flourishes? Every time a new ILX rudeword is invented I'm quite sure I'd be rendered speechless if someone used it on me.

― Mark C (Mark C), Thursday, 7 August 2003 09:32 (twenty-two years ago)

"You're drunk" is so often a foregone conclusion.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Thursday, 7 August 2003 09:32 (twenty-two years ago)

'You're drunk' = When Ex-Girlfriends Attack and spout vile evils at you. I suppose 'stop patronising me' is also a point-scorer but it's founded in a reality that both of the arguers can understand, by which I mean, if you are patronising someone you probably know it and them calling you on it is good perception on their part and you've no right to feel hurt about it.

I think, actually, you've right to feel hurt when someone replies 'you're patronising me' after you state they're drunk because arguing with drunks (irrational, frustrated, angry) is the worst conversation you can have. It's one of the rare situations where being reasonable escalates the argument rather than calms it, I think.

I'm trying to think of others here.

― David. (Cozen), Thursday, 7 August 2003 09:34 (twenty-two years ago)

The worst/besr of all these is surely

'Calm down'

― N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 7 August 2003 09:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Ooooh, yeh, good one, "I am calm!"

― David. (Cozen), Thursday, 7 August 2003 09:35 (twenty-two years ago)

'Stop shouting'

― N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 7 August 2003 09:36 (twenty-two years ago)

'Did you listen to a word I just said?'

― N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 7 August 2003 09:37 (twenty-two years ago)

'You don't understand.'

― David. (Cozen), Thursday, 7 August 2003 09:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Jeez. I KNOW there are other threads. But why would I search for them when I can post PERFECTLY LEGITIMATELY on this one? :)

― Archel (Archel), Thursday, 7 August 2003 09:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Using logic!

― David. (Cozen), Thursday, 7 August 2003 09:41 (twenty-two years ago)

"Why didn't you do [tedious task] like I asked you to?"

― Mark C (Mark C), Thursday, 7 August 2003 09:43 (twenty-two years ago)

'if you're going to shout me down then we better just stop this whole thing'

retro: 'i am your teacher, do your parents allow you to speak like this". how sorry I am for speaking my mind, what a terrible job mum and dad have done.

― Ronan (Ronan), Thursday, 7 August 2003 09:43 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm all about the Fabian tictacs.

― Archel (Archel), Thursday, 7 August 2003 09:45 (twenty-two years ago)

I think that this is quite a specific thread heading for ruin.

― David. (Cozen), Thursday, 7 August 2003 09:46 (twenty-two years ago)

The worst of these is when people say "Oooh, you're being very defensive aren't you?" after you've disagreed with them.

― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Thursday, 7 August 2003 09:46 (twenty-two years ago)

christ yesterday I met that editor and he kept doing that Jerry, he was like "NO NO I'M NOT INSULTING YOU" as I tried to explain myself. Didn't get a word in edgeways, I knew I should have changed out of the shirt and tie.

― Ronan (Ronan), Thursday, 7 August 2003 09:48 (twenty-two years ago)

"Yes, I used to think that, but.."

― N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 7 August 2003 09:50 (twenty-two years ago)

'It's not that simple.' Yes, it is.

― Archel (Archel), Thursday, 7 August 2003 09:52 (twenty-two years ago)

"Do not feed the troll"

― N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 7 August 2003 09:54 (twenty-two years ago)

'You're trying to CENSOR me!'

― Archel (Archel), Thursday, 7 August 2003 09:55 (twenty-two years ago)

"When you've been around as long as I have.."

― N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 7 August 2003 09:57 (twenty-two years ago)

'You're a man of the world...'

― Archel (Archel), Thursday, 7 August 2003 09:58 (twenty-two years ago)

Actually that has had a whole thread devoted to it before, come to think of it.

― Archel (Archel), Thursday, 7 August 2003 09:59 (twenty-two years ago)

When do people say that in arguments? To try and gain experience points in search of authenticity / rightness? Which is also another one 'you think you know everything' - well what can you say to that? You're in an argument, you're putting across your side of the story and if you believe it then you're saying it with authority: of course it's going to seem like you know everything, because you're being reasonable / have an answer to all the barbs but somehow it's such a disarming phrase.

― David. (Cozen), Thursday, 7 August 2003 10:00 (twenty-two years ago)

calm down is good, but "put the knives on" is funnier.

― The Lady Ms Lurex (lucylurex), Thursday, 7 August 2003 10:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Stop N you are too good at this.

'yeah its cool man, we're just in different places man, essentially we agree really"

― Ronan (Ronan), Thursday, 7 August 2003 10:01 (twenty-two years ago)

"When you've been around as long as I have"

― Mark C (Mark C), Thursday, 7 August 2003 10:01 (twenty-two years ago)

That's the one I'm asking about ("when you've been around as long as I have") - when and why do people say this in an argument?

― David. (Cozen), Thursday, 7 August 2003 10:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Mark C is copying my work, Miss!

― N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 7 August 2003 10:03 (twenty-two years ago)

David, yeah, people say it 'to try and gain experience points in search of authenticity / rightness'. You were right.

Ronan, when you've been around as long as I have, you develop a good sense for this kind of thing.

― N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 7 August 2003 10:05 (twenty-two years ago)

'do you talk like that at home N, mark c is not copying your work"

David, people say it cos they don't have any direct or sensible retort to something someone's said and so instead of simply saying "I have no logical position for what I think" they say "yeah I am venerable and I may not have a clue but this is due to many years of struggle".

― Ronan (Ronan), Thursday, 7 August 2003 10:07 (twenty-two years ago)

'your punctuation is completely crap Ronan'

― Ronan (Ronan), Thursday, 7 August 2003 10:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Nothing is more guaranteed to up the pitch of an argument I'm involved in than telling me to stop shouting. An ex of mine used to do this all the time and I am ashamed to say it frequently drove me to the point of apoplexy.

― RickyT (RickyT), Thursday, 7 August 2003 10:07 (twenty-two years ago)

"Much as I'd love to sit and argue with you all day, I've actually got more important things to go and do."

― N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 7 August 2003 10:08 (twenty-two years ago)

"People who resort to swearing have lost the argument before it's even begun?"

Like, HOW DOES THAT FUCKING WORK YOU CUNTING COCKFARMER?!

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Thursday, 7 August 2003 10:10 (twenty-two years ago)

I quite like 'I don't know what to say' as a way to elide / not have to use all of these - it lets the argument lose a little heat for a few seconds, allows you to think through your next move / thought, and isn't particularly nasty or nice just neutral.

― David. (Cozen), Thursday, 7 August 2003 10:12 (twenty-two years ago)

"thats a very negative stance"

― Ronan (Ronan), Thursday, 7 August 2003 10:13 (twenty-two years ago)

"Yes, but that's just your opinion..."

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Thursday, 7 August 2003 10:14 (twenty-two years ago)

"...and that's all there is to it."

― Mark C (Mark C), Thursday, 7 August 2003 10:14 (twenty-two years ago)

The worst of these is when people say "Oooh, you're being very defensive aren't you?" after you've disagreed with them.

God, this makes me fume. Of course, the accusation of defensiveness is one you have to take pretty seriously in a work situation where you're expected to bow to the greater experience/knowledge of yr superiors and swallow any temptation to counter criticism with an explanation of yr actions.

The more rigorous and keenly-argued your explanation (there's a reason I did this, and you should know it before slapping me down; in fact, if you see the chain of logic that got me to this point, it may demonstrate a hole in my training, or some other deeper misapprehension on my part) the greater the danger of being earmarked as 'defensive' or 'attitudinal'.

But maybe it's 'good for the soul' (hey, that's another one!) to just shut up and take it sometimes.

― Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Thursday, 7 August 2003 10:16 (twenty-two years ago)

last night:

nick: did you listen to a word I just said?
richard: you're drunk. no, I didn't.

― RJG (RJG), Thursday, 7 August 2003 10:17 (twenty-two years ago)

(N., where you in Mono on Tuesday?)

― David. (Cozen), Thursday, 7 August 2003 10:18 (twenty-two years ago)

Richard, I kiss you!

― Mark C (Mark C), Thursday, 7 August 2003 10:20 (twenty-two years ago)

"What albums should a naive Darkness fan be listening to then, Grandad?" (The 'Grandad' part.)

― David. (Cozen), Thursday, 7 August 2003 10:22 (twenty-two years ago)

I guess that that is the opposite as 'well, if you've been around as long as I have'.

― David. (Cozen), Thursday, 7 August 2003 10:22 (twenty-two years ago)

"Naive Darkness fan" = tautology, no?

― Mark C (Mark C), Thursday, 7 August 2003 10:28 (twenty-two years ago)

"Get over yourself." That's another stickler.

― David. (Cozen), Thursday, 7 August 2003 11:22 (twenty-two years ago)

"I don't want to have to spell it out..." or come to think of it any passive-aggressive phrase which allows the other to feel good while simultaneously perpetrating that which s/he said she wasn't going to.

― David. (Cozen), Thursday, 7 August 2003 11:32 (twenty-two years ago)

"With respect.."

― N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 7 August 2003 11:50 (twenty-two years ago)

"In fairness..."

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Thursday, 7 August 2003 11:52 (twenty-two years ago)

"no one else agrees with you"

― Ronan (Ronan), Thursday, 7 August 2003 12:31 (twenty-two years ago)

Southport bouncers are prone to stating "come on, you've had a good night" shortly before ejection, which always irritates me to distraction.

― Matt (Matt), Thursday, 7 August 2003 12:33 (twenty-two years ago)

A bit like saying 'come on, you've had a long and happy life' before killing someone. Although people probably don't say that very often. Unless it's to a dog they're putting down, perhaps.

― Archel (Archel), Thursday, 7 August 2003 12:39 (twenty-two years ago)

Indeed, it is the assumption that they know more about your existence than you yourself do. The reply of "No I haven't, I've been in fucking Southport" has been recorded elsewhere on this forum.

― Matt (Matt), Thursday, 7 August 2003 12:48 (twenty-two years ago)

However, since I have the task of throwing people out of the library at night (surprisingly difficult) I have some sympathy with any desperate phrase bouncers latch onto so they can go home. I usually say 'come on, you can't possibly want to do any more work, it's late, let's go and catch our trains' which really means '*I* don't want to do any more work, and *I* want to catch my train'.

― Archel (Archel), Thursday, 7 August 2003 12:54 (twenty-two years ago)

CAN YOU START READING UP NOW *PLEASE*

― N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 7 August 2003 13:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Back in my pub bartending days I generally found that just explaining to people that they had to leave did the trick. I do like the idea of you saying "come on mate, you've had a good study but it's time to leave. You've read enough books."

― Matt (Matt), Thursday, 7 August 2003 13:04 (twenty-two years ago)

get a life you lot

― Snowy Mann (rdmanston), Thursday, 7 August 2003 13:14 (twenty-two years ago)

'oh, get a life...'

ok...i'll TAKE YOURS

― Snowy Mann (rdmanston), Thursday, 7 August 2003 13:22 (twenty-two years ago)

Archel, just lock them in. That teaches them.

― RickyT (RickyT), Thursday, 7 August 2003 13:23 (twenty-two years ago)

I have done that once. Oh the laffs.

― Archel (Archel), Thursday, 7 August 2003 13:24 (twenty-two years ago)

Whoops, I use "get over yourself" about 100 times a day

― dave q, Thursday, 7 August 2003 13:34 (twenty-two years ago)

C'mon dave, you're a smart guy.

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Thursday, 7 August 2003 13:34 (twenty-two years ago)

little birds in their nest agree, WHY CANT WE.

― Ronan (Ronan), Thursday, 7 August 2003 13:37 (twenty-two years ago)

What does it mean, dave? That's my problem with it, I don't really know what it means.

― David. (Cozen), Thursday, 7 August 2003 13:41 (twenty-two years ago)

"you're behaving like a child."

― RJG (RJG), Thursday, 7 August 2003 13:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Don't come the innocent w/us, Cozen!

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Thursday, 7 August 2003 13:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Ha! OK! What I think it means: you are up yourself, snobby, have introduced your head to your digestive tract or can mean being brattish or spoilt?

― David. (Cozen), Thursday, 7 August 2003 13:49 (twenty-two years ago)

Takes one to know one.

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Thursday, 7 August 2003 13:58 (twenty-two years ago)

Gosh, "Grow up" is the most annoying thing that can possibly be said, especially when you have a negative reaction to something really obnoxious, and then the person who did the really obnoxious thing tells you to "Grow up."

Um, no this has never happened to me, no sir.

― amateurist (amateurist), Thursday, 7 August 2003 14:01 (twenty-two years ago)

Takes one to show one.

― David. (Cozen), Thursday, 7 August 2003 14:01 (twenty-two years ago)

"Why are you giving me a hard time about this?"

(Ideally said upon giving someone else a really hard time and getting a predictably annoyed reaction)

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Thursday, 7 August 2003 14:12 (twenty-two years ago)

"Stop picking on me."

― David. (Cozen), Thursday, 7 August 2003 14:15 (twenty-two years ago)

Relax!

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Thursday, 7 August 2003 14:20 (twenty-two years ago)

haha, the lines are all blurry now. I don't know if we're naming phrases or saying them. I'm relaxed.

― David. (Cozen), Thursday, 7 August 2003 14:22 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh, I'd forgotten my all time most hated: "Look, I'm not being funny, but" YES! yes you are ARE! The very fact that you felt the need to prefix your utterance with that nastly little appendage means you are about to say something "funny" which in all likelihood is going to drive me into a blind and unreasoning RAGE!

― Matt (Matt), Thursday, 7 August 2003 14:23 (twenty-two years ago)

Isn't it obvious?

― Larcole (Nicole), Thursday, 7 August 2003 14:24 (twenty-two years ago)

Does "You are all lame, you post on a message board!" count?

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Thursday, 7 August 2003 14:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Yes.

― Larcole (Nicole), Thursday, 7 August 2003 14:28 (twenty-two years ago)

You can spend hours working on the correct reply to that one, I haven't come close yet (or rather those using it just don't care)

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Thursday, 7 August 2003 14:29 (twenty-two years ago)

"Not to be [x], but [whingingly specific instance of x]"

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Thursday, 7 August 2003 14:31 (twenty-two years ago)

Don't you have anything better to do?

― Larcole (Nicole), Thursday, 7 August 2003 14:34 (twenty-two years ago)

Maybe the goal is to remove all vocal cords and typing ability, to prevent communication.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 7 August 2003 14:36 (twenty-two years ago)

That was an example, Ned, as is this one:

By the way, I'm living my dream, and I hope that really bothers you.

― Larcole (Nicole), Thursday, 7 August 2003 14:38 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't actually, I'm some lameass on a message board

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Thursday, 7 August 2003 14:39 (twenty-two years ago)

Don't take this the wrong way, but this thread sucks.

― rosemary (rosemary), Thursday, 7 August 2003 14:41 (twenty-two years ago)

"im out of here folks byebye"

― Ronan (Ronan), Thursday, 7 August 2003 14:41 (twenty-two years ago)

nicole's 2nd=devastating.

― RJG (RJG), Thursday, 7 August 2003 14:43 (twenty-two years ago)

By the way, I'm living my dream, and I hope that really bothers you.

Reminds me of this e-mail I got this morning from some clown who pretty much said the same thing to me. He really DID have nothing better to do that go on about people who think he was a poor writer (which he was and is) as opposed to improving what he does.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 7 August 2003 14:44 (twenty-two years ago)

story of some people's lives.

― RJG (RJG), Thursday, 7 August 2003 14:46 (twenty-two years ago)

what the hell is a clown doing trying his hand at rock criticism anyway, I fucking hate the way clowns keep muscling in on other peoples jobs. STAY IN THE CIRCUS OK?

― Ronan (Ronan), Thursday, 7 August 2003 14:47 (twenty-two years ago)

http://ktwu.wuacc.edu/journeys/releases/sj2001/images/1411.jpg

― amateurist (amateurist), Thursday, 7 August 2003 14:48 (twenty-two years ago)

joke of some people's days.

― RJG (RJG), Thursday, 7 August 2003 14:49 (twenty-two years ago)

I remember I had to give a class presentation when I was a freshman in college and some snarky girls were asking semi-rude questions about the subject of my project--when I answered them back sort of strongly, they all would be like "Why are you getting so defensive?!" And god, did that piss me off.

― Mandee, Thursday, 7 August 2003 14:49 (twenty-two years ago)

I suppose a real troll wouldn't say that, though (my reply)

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Thursday, 7 August 2003 14:50 (twenty-two years ago)

This thread is increasing my blood pressure.

― amateurist (amateurist), Thursday, 7 August 2003 14:50 (twenty-two years ago)

"I thought that (weird insult out of the blue) was the whole point of you"

― Ally (mlescaut), Thursday, 7 August 2003 14:50 (twenty-two years ago)

A bit like saying 'come on, you've had a long and happy life' before killing someone'

I prefer "Look, I'm doing you a favour" myself

― dave q, Thursday, 7 August 2003 14:51 (twenty-two years ago)

"But it's a gift!"

― amateurist (amateurist), Thursday, 7 August 2003 14:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Person A: (inserts a repetition of a phrase as in "I can't believe they'd say that to describe that")
Person B: Yes, of course, as in (insert really mundane obvious explanation of the term as if Person A had no idea what the term actually MEANT)
Person A: (stabs person B with a pitchfork)

― Ally (mlescaut), Thursday, 7 August 2003 14:53 (twenty-two years ago)

"Why are you getting so defensive?" is the worst because if you try and say anything after that, it makes you look even more defensive. So the person who has said it ends up winning the argument/smugness war.

― Mandee, Thursday, 7 August 2003 14:53 (twenty-two years ago)

We must learn from this underhand behaviour and STEAL IT!

― Archel (Archel), Thursday, 7 August 2003 14:56 (twenty-two years ago)

When ppl start waving their hands and going "Wait wait SLOOOOW DOWN" or "back up", etc.. Fuck I HATE that. Especially when tweaking

― dave q, Thursday, 7 August 2003 14:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Every conversation ever in college, apart from the pitchfork.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Thursday, 7 August 2003 15:21 (twenty-two years ago)

College is for wankers, I've come to realize.

― Ally (mlescaut), Thursday, 7 August 2003 15:23 (twenty-two years ago)

My least favourite rhetorical flourish is pleonasm. When tempted to use pleonasm one should cease and desist at once. My second least favourite is the oxymoron. It is so plainly gaudy.

― Aimless, Thursday, 7 August 2003 16:13 (twenty-two years ago)

"Lighten up!"

― David. (Cozen), Thursday, 7 August 2003 16:15 (twenty-two years ago)

"[deeply offensive comment]. Just kidding!" I fucking can't stand it when people say "deeply offensive comment" in square brackets.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 7 August 2003 16:19 (twenty-two years ago)

'why are you getting so defensive?'
- would you prefer me to get 'aggressive' instead?
*produces claw-hammer*

'why are you getting so defensive?'
- what? i'm sorry, i don't speak 'wanker'...

'why are you getting so defensive?'
- why are you talking like a pseudo-telepathic freudian hippie smuggins?

'why are you getting so defensive?'
- why are you projecting your defensiveness onto me? (HA!)

best answer to any version of this kind of i'm-dead-empathic-me closed-system attribution-of-motives/feelings freudlite-wankyness is to reflect it back:

'you're projecting'
'no, YOU'RE projecting'
'no, YOU are projecting..'
etcetc'

(unless of course you actually are arguing with another cinema projectionist about whose shift it is)

― Snowy Mann (rdmanston), Thursday, 7 August 2003 16:20 (twenty-two years ago)

My 'favourite' is the all time classic, 'I'm not a racist, but' closely folllowed by 'I'm not a feminist, but' for entirely different reasons.

― suzy (suzy), Thursday, 7 August 2003 16:35 (twenty-two years ago)

"I don't have a problem with bummers, come round look at my CD collection, it's got Queen, ABBA, George Michael, but..."

― David. (Cozen), Thursday, 7 August 2003 16:40 (twenty-two years ago)

My mum the other day: 'I love gay people, but I wouldn't wish being born that way on my worst enemy.'

Me: 'Why, because it's really fun to go to gay bars and pick up hott men? Yeah, no way would I want my worst enemy to do that or enjoy it.'

― suzy (suzy), Thursday, 7 August 2003 16:45 (twenty-two years ago)

I knew you'd be this way about it.

You're taking this really personally.

Get over "it."

Can't you see how paranoid that sounds?

(and my favorite)

"I guess you're always right, huh?"

― jackson anderville, Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:14 (twenty-two years ago)

I want to scream when people say "I guess you're always right" to me because A) it's always the people who insist they are always right in every situation, and B) I _AM_ always right and it irks me that these people are too pig-headed to figure this out.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:18 (twenty-two years ago)

of course, who goes around saying stuff they think is wrong??

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Also so often used when the fact is the speaker's cornered/has lost the argument ...

― jackson anderville, Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Almost all "arguments" that deal in absolutes like "Don't you ALWAYS [x]" are k-annoying, because instead of dealing with the subject at hand the person turns into a fight over someone's character. Indeed, a number of ILXors are quite guilty of this.

― amateurist (amateurist), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:31 (twenty-two years ago)

For some reason I've never gotten the "you ALWAYS think you're right" one...and Tracer's right, it's a strange thing to say because it's sort of a truism all 'round.

― amateurist (amateurist), Thursday, 7 August 2003 20:32 (twenty-two years ago)

"I hope you're happy now!!"

"you must be very proud of yourself!!!!"

"SATISFIED??????"

― RJG (RJG), Friday, 8 August 2003 00:40 (twenty-two years ago)

I have finally (I think) weaned myself of the habit of getting in the last word during an argument by saying, "What-EVER." It got to the point where I wanted to strangle myself, it was so annoying.

I used to know a guy who shrugged off everything anyone ever said about anything by saying, "Six of one, half a dozen of the other." He said this about ANYTHING, regardless of whether the alternatives being offered could even remotely be construed as equal -- and even if you weren't offering alternatives. "Hey, Jim, would you please stop sucking your teeth?" "Six of one, half a dozen of the other." HUH?

― jewelly (jewelly), Friday, 8 August 2003 01:49 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm waiting for "talk to the hand" to make a comeback.

― Asymmetric Cocktails (Jody Beth Rosen), Friday, 8 August 2003 02:30 (twenty-two years ago)

because the face don't care!!

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Friday, 8 August 2003 02:31 (twenty-two years ago)

no offense.

― Asymmetric Cocktails (Jody Beth Rosen), Friday, 8 August 2003 02:34 (twenty-two years ago)

http://electricsound.sevcom.com/handface.jpg

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Friday, 8 August 2003 02:44 (twenty-two years ago)

"Stop repeating everything I say!"
"Stop repeating everything I say!"

― Mark C (Mark C), Friday, 8 August 2003 10:33 (twenty-two years ago)

You hate fun.

― Mark C (Mark C), Friday, 8 August 2003 10:34 (twenty-two years ago)

I would take the above to indicate that the last time Mark had an argument was well before puberty, except that I know that's not true...

― Archel (Archel), Friday, 8 August 2003 10:55 (twenty-two years ago)

i know you are, what am I?

― Alan (Alan), Friday, 8 August 2003 11:12 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm sick of everyone just saying "Chinbutt Victory!" and then just fucking off.

― Sam (chirombo), Friday, 8 August 2003 11:25 (twenty-two years ago)

'Ha! One nil to me.'

― Archel (Archel), Friday, 8 August 2003 11:33 (twenty-two years ago)

your silence only incriminates you further

― Ronan (Ronan), Friday, 8 August 2003 12:19 (twenty-two years ago)

"Fuck, that's the third time you've brought that up this month. Are you OBSESSED or something? Get help" etc

― dave q, Friday, 8 August 2003 12:22 (twenty-two years ago)

* "NOW do you agree with me?"
* "You think you're SO smart!"
* "Now let's just play devil's advocate here..."

― Sarah McLusky (coco), Friday, 8 August 2003 12:48 (twenty-two years ago)

does anyone have any particularly thick peers who use

"you can't say that though, you can't say it"

― Ronan (Ronan), Friday, 8 August 2003 12:50 (twenty-two years ago)

"You're just saying that". As used by my sister for years, well no shit how else would I communicate it to you?

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Friday, 8 August 2003 12:56 (twenty-two years ago)

my girlfriend: remember watching this episode of seinfeld? [continues to explain three or four parts of the story]

me: no, I have never seen that one.

my girlfriend: yes, you have! we watched it last week!

me: no, we didn't; I have never, ever seen it.

my girlfriend: [laughing] yes, you have.

me: I don't remember ANY of the parts you describe--I have never seen it.

my girlfriend: [smiling] you have.

me: you can't say that.

― RJG (RJG), Friday, 8 August 2003 13:01 (twenty-two years ago)

RJG, That happens to me ALL the time (uh, not with your girlfriend though).

― Sarah MCLusky (coco), Friday, 8 August 2003 13:04 (twenty-two years ago)

my girlfriend: but I remember watching it with you!!

me: you must realise you cannot say that!!!!

― RJG (RJG), Friday, 8 August 2003 13:06 (twenty-two years ago)

Out with friends last night, one repeated a statement made by another as a preface to disagreeing with it, and parenthetically said "and I have qualms about all of the words you used there," which I thought was very good.

I hope you'll all approve of people saying things like "You'll understand when you get to my age," or "of course, you're still very young," as attempts to claim special wisdom. I am generally the oldest here, so I don't want these banned. (Damn, wrote this when I started reading the thread, and this tactic is attacked. I have nothing left!)

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Friday, 8 August 2003 16:29 (twenty-two years ago)

"Engaging"
I maintain with steadfast conviction that this is not a necessarily good thing. It is not enough to simply hold someone's attention. A leaky faucet or a child kicking the back of your seat for the duration of an eight-hour flight will certainly "engage" you. They will keep you from forgetting about them. But that is not enough.
Grar! That is all.

― Prude (Prude), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 04:40 (twenty-two years ago)

I've started using "when you get to my age" or "if you were as old as me" and I realise how hideously patronising it is, so I (try) only using it in a joshing manner. Most of my friends are 5-10 years younger than me though, so I'm biting my tounge a lot...

― Trayce (trayce), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 04:58 (twenty-two years ago)

"Say it in English, please!" (assuming that is the first language of both speakers)

― dave q, Wednesday, 13 August 2003 06:36 (twenty-two years ago)

As per my prediction, this thread became ridiculous after about 10 posts -- things other people say that you perhaps do not. Please no more "I hate this word/this phrase" threads. Most pointless things on ILX.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 07:23 (twenty-two years ago)

It didn't become like that I don't think Kenan, I even said above that yes that does happen but I think there's lots of good example of rhetorical cop out or shutdown style stuff on here. What examples in particular do you think are just "things people say that you perhaps do not", maybe if you specify whoever said them can explain to you.

― Ronan (Ronan), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 07:33 (twenty-two years ago)

Kenan hates fun! Like this is the first thread ever to be slightly derailed... I think everyone on this thread knows what is and is not a genuine 'rhetorical flourish', and if they have diverged from that topic a bit it's because it's Fun.

― Archel (Archel), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 07:37 (twenty-two years ago)

there are at least 15 good examples of what David is talking about. thats alot of examples bob

― Ronan (Ronan), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 07:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Ronan, what I mean is...

"Say it in English, please!"
"when you get to my age" or "if you were as old as me"
"Engaging"
"You're just saying that"
* "NOW do you agree with me?"
* "You think you're SO smart!"
* "Now let's just play devil's advocate here..."
"I hope you're happy now!!"
"you must be very proud of yourself!!!!"
"SATISFIED??????"
"Lighten up!"

I could go on, but I'm tired of scrolling. And I'm sure each of these things is perhaps irritating to the person who mentioned them. So what? Does this mean that the people who say these things (which includes in many cases almost everyone BESIDES the person who finds them irritating) are somehow stupid or ridiculous? Are there really people going around making snap judgements about people based on whether or not they use the phrase "you're just saying that" as rhetoric? If I say such things, can I no longer be your friend? What on earth is the point of this thread?

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 07:49 (twenty-two years ago)

'Does this mean that the people who say these things (which includes in many cases almost everyone BESIDES the person who finds them irritating) are somehow stupid or ridiculous?'

ESPECIALLY when it's everyone besides me

― dave q, Wednesday, 13 August 2003 07:51 (twenty-two years ago)

"Engaging" cracks me up. What if something is engaging? Should this word be now stricken from the language? It is a word, you know, and it has a meaning.

Same goes for everything else here. Suppose you ARE full of shit. Suppose, just for a moment, that you're being an arrogant ass and you DESERVE to be told "You think you're so smart!" Or maybe you're just saying that. If I tell you that you're just saying that, I'm not wrong.

Words have a time and a place. If they're often misused, that's unavoidable, but it's hardly the words' fault.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 07:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Noone said anything as over the top as you just did. The point is that those things are "annoying rhetorical flourishes", what that means is that people say those things in an argument or debate to avoid making a point or to back up their point with something fairly illogical.

For example if you're discussing something with someone and you make a point and they say "lighten up" then the discussion can't go anywhere, hence it is potentially an annoying rhetorical flourish.

Of course this isn't cut and dried and from situation to situation all the above phrases could be ok, but that's surely obvious and to deliberately ignore that makes you a bit more guilty of what you're accusing people here of doing than anyone, as far as I see.

If you read the thread you'd notice lots of people agreeing that "yes that is irritating" after a few of the examples you give.

Do you actually believe anyone actually is as histrionic as your last few lines?

The thread says "rhetorical flourishes you can't stand", people listed rhetorical flourishes they can't stand. It's pretty simple really and you're the only one showing any undue anger.

― Ronan (Ronan), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 07:59 (twenty-two years ago)

But it's all so unqualifiable. Rhetorical flourishes *you* can't stand. Ok, great. It's just so awfully unconstructive.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 08:02 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah take a chill pill hebert and also don't get yr panties in a wad

― mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 08:03 (twenty-two years ago)

See? There's an appropriate use of what would otherwise be offensive rhetoric.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 08:05 (twenty-two years ago)

DO YOU SEE??!!

haha "it's all so unqualifiable" = my own new irritating phrase now to shut ppl up, it's brilliant

― mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 08:05 (twenty-two years ago)

You're welcome.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 08:07 (twenty-two years ago)

"get over yourself" is also just about the best piece of advice I've ever received.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 08:13 (twenty-two years ago)

Nick is my new best friend.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 08:14 (twenty-two years ago)

Cool.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 08:20 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah in fairness it's all so unqualifiable would be great

― Ronan (Ronan), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 08:47 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm afraid to read this thread in case I turn out to be guilty of all of them

― Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 08:58 (twenty-two years ago)

"Opinions are like arseholes..."

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 09:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Kenan I think you have missed the point (ha!).

I was worried about diluting thread creep when I first posted (in response to Archel's suggestion) but by and large I think people have kept to the topic. It's *not* about which phrases or clichés are irritating per se. It's about stock phrases that are used to score points in an argument, or yes, as Ronan says, shut it down.

We probably do all use these, but they are the nasty side of rhetoric. And if overused they (thankfully) lose their power.

The constructive side of this thread is that by pointing them out and ridiculing them, we are less likely to be cowed next time someone says "grow up" or "I've got better things to be doing than sit and argue with you all day". And hopefully more productive argument will ensue.

― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 10:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah when I cited "Speak English please!"(Brit var. = "Who's swallowed the dictionary then?") I meant in the context of somebody implying that your argument is faulty due to relying on words the person is unfamiliar with, that a weakness would be revealed if you tried to 'translate' it, ie they're accusing you of arguing in bad faith or just trying to confuse them. If they say "Excuse me, could you define 'decathexis' for me before you continue" then that's different, whereas "Speak English!" is just another 'ad hominem' variant

― dave q, Wednesday, 13 August 2003 11:02 (twenty-two years ago)

one year passes...

you say something which touches on the point the other person was making but isn't really a true concession: "OH so you AGREE with me then!!"

― cozen (Cozen), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 11:34 (twenty years ago)

'Yeah, but you WOULD say that'. If you know what I would say then you obviously know what my position is, so why not try actually arguing against it?

'Meh, it's all subjective/relative anyway'. Occasionally true but never helpful.

'WhatEVER'. Best rhetorical flourish ever and I have no problem with it at all.

― Archel (Archel), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 12:01 (twenty years ago)

Haha having just read Achewood I plan to include this line in all arguments ever from now on: "when I want your opinion I will cut out your brain and eat it and crap your opinion back into your skull".

― Archel (Archel), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 12:56 (twenty years ago)

"your mum" is still one of my favs.

― ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 12:57 (twenty years ago)

"erm, grow up ken"

"haha, yeah, your mum"

only way to return a childish argument is to out-childish it.

― ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 12:58 (twenty years ago)

oh and "i know YOU ARE, but what am i???"

― ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 12:59 (twenty years ago)

At my school the correct response to 'Grow Up' was 'Who do you think you are; Victor Mature?'

Which was odd, because although I'm old I'm not that old and his film heyday, such as it was, must have been 40 years previously.

― Bidfurd, Tuesday, 2 August 2005 13:20 (twenty years ago)

In my day, we would say "Ooooh, you're so Midge Ure.

― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 13:28 (twenty years ago)

"You do the math"

― Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 13:36 (twenty years ago)

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