Crosspost.

(just weird hip-hop)
(nothing mentioned about not wanting to shake his rump neither)
(I mean you can fuckin' dance to Hawkwind)

Because instruments are white!

Oh wait...

James

Oh wait...

That's not even clever...where's that sense of humor?

other than that i dunno

stockhausen wd be a horrible mc (though funny admittedly)

This was Rush's argument too. And Genesis. And Yes.

LeRoi Jones - Blue People

Read it motherfuckers.

And Anthony Braxton, Cornel West, Toni Morrison, and a bunch of other people too.

*cue ddrake: 'Ha ha, where is your sense of humor, dork, etc.'*

Seriously Ned, read Blues People.
To quote big lebowski.

"You're out of yr element donnie."

Bam.

James who started the thread - have you heard Kid Koala, or Peanut Butter Wolf's My Vinyl Weighs a Ton?

Read it motherfuckers.

and while you're at it don't miss Mr. Baraka's insightful, inspiring poem about the WTC disaster

Is the so called "progressive" really all that progressive?

and while you're at it don't miss Mr. Baraka's insightful, inspiring poem about the WTC disaster

And yet, Blues People is a more incredible work than anything anyone on ILM has accomplished...a more important work as well. That I can't believe more of you haven't read.
Baraka Rock-a's.

ddrake exposes his secret rockist heart non-shockah!

I'm not gonna get much support here from the ILM regs, even if some of them agree with me, so I'ma bounce and get some homework done.
Gimme a book report on Blues People, Ned. Word.

And yet, The Decameron is a more complex work than Jones/Baraka has produced...wft is your point? If people can't write masterpieces, they shouldn't say anything? Not that I'm conceding Blues People (which I have read, ages ago, thanks so much) is a masterpiece, just wondering if it's your opinion that only the authors of masterpieces should talk.

If you've read it, you clearly haven't comprehended it.

And yet, The Decameron is a more complex work than Jones/Baraka has produced...wft is your point? If people can't write masterpieces, they shouldn't say anything? Not that I'm conceding Blues People (which I have read, ages ago, thanks so much) is a masterpiece, just wondering if it's your opinion that only the authors of masterpieces should talk

And how does an article about the WTC relate to anything we're talking about in this thread? You were using it to discredit his OTHER book, which I believe has relevence in this conversation.

John, this is the same person who thinks he needs to know everything and anything about a genre before commenting on it properly and yet is more than happy to accuse you of knowing nothing about something if you happen to have general conclusions that don't match with his own. And yes, that includes assuming you haven't read something he has, because obviously only he knows about it and is more than happy to tell you at high volume if necessary. If arguing with Geir is like punching Jello, arguing with ddrake is like punching stinky Jello that complains about your sense of humor as well and then gets bitter and hides.

This is not good proof of your omniscience.

Nihilist Pop Star I dunno if that was for one, some or all of us on this thread which showed ilx at its worst, refusing to give a straight answer to somebody whose question was a fine, honest question, but either way, that's one awesome picture

John, this is the same person who thinks he needs to know everything and anything about a genre before commenting on it properly and yet is more than happy to accuse you of knowing nothing about something if you happen to have general conclusions that don't match with his own. And yes, that includes assuming you haven't read something he has, because obviously only he knows about it and is more than happy to tell you at high volume if necessary. If arguing with Geir is like punching Jello, arguing with ddrake is like punching stinky Jello that complains about your sense of humor as well and then gets bitter and hides.

Ned is clearly someone who thinks he comprehends what I am saying without actually listening to what I am saying. "Cultural Context" = "Knowing everything about a genre"?
"high volume"? We're on a message board. Congratulations, you have better hearing than I.
Personal attack, comparison to the village idiot, hilarious.

What a "rockist" perspective of literature! R Kelly is a pedophile, therefore I no longer can listen to the Ignition Remix.

HAHAHA! You picked the wrong example there! But John can do the honors.

Your relevence to this thread's discussion is nonexistent.
Its like 5th grade again! Gang up on me and take my lunch money, please.

again, not sure those really answer the question per se but are worth checking out. the only example of #1 i can think of at the moment is the roots, "water" off phrenology, which i think is consciously an evocation of prog in a hip hop context.

#2 i don't know of any off the top of my head but i would love to hear this attempted. why not?

#4 try digging into non-western hip hop, you're certain to hear some more unusual flows that way.

Fine, but that's a very arguable position - not one you can "Bam!" as though revealing the Truth From On High. I'd argue that context limits the capacity for insight, and a fair number of people who think about reading/interpretation would tend to agree.

Ned I'm assuming he read the Ignition thread, but to discredit the example: if Kelly wrote songs that were as wretched as his behavior, that'd be different. When a writer adds something wretched to his body of work, it's fair to reevaluate that entire body of work and individual texts within it. Bam!

cue Momus's entrance

And for today, class, the word to spell correctly is 'relevance.'

Now please, say something relevant or shut up. :-)

James

So why when I argue this position am I met with comparisons to this Geir fellow? Who I felt like disembowling the moment I read his posts, incidently.

Ned I'm assuming he read the Ignition thread, but to discredit the example: if Kelly wrote songs that were as wretched as his behavior, that'd be different. When a writer adds something wretched to his body of work, it's fair to reevaluate that entire body of work and individual texts within it. Bam!

I didn't see that thread, but while I see yr point, I don't think that this is the case here. While Baraka may have become senile in his old age, and Blues People is not an airtight argument per se, it is one that deserves fair treatment. Judge it in the context of the WTC writing if you must, but keep in mind - different time, place, and completely different issue.
I can't think of a musical example to compare it to, but let me put it this way: No matter how offensive this poem may be, it doesn't change the continued relevence of the work he has done in the past.

ie. if you got something to say fukker say it cuz you ain't said shit yet
The irony!

And for today, class, the word to spell correctly is 'relevance.'

Yeah, this board needs an edit button. Blow me.

You have discovered the joy that is ddrake! Revel in his love for you, for without someone to demonize, he would not exist.

Precisely.

Because ddrake said so. (So okay, maybe entirely taking it back to him all the time isn't the best approach, but he likes the attention.)

Ooh, an actual argument.

"academic posturing..." as if I've learned this in college. No, its impossible that these are my OWN ideas and from experience, I have come to these conclusions? Please, my black history professor freshman year was on tenure, I learned shit in that class. Ha.

Someone needs to ban the prefix "psuedo."
Not bullshit. This is a serious argument I'm making, and I don't see why its necessary to belittle it with accusations of "psuedo-intellectualism." I wouldn't accuse INTENTIONAL race politics of coming into yr question, but rather culturally ingrained issues of race. I certainly wouldn't claim to be the all-knowledgeable god of hip hop, but man, discussing hip hop on ILM makes me want to hurl.

There's a difference between Sun Ra and Art Ensemble of Chicago and Anthony Braxton and Bill Evans (token white progressive dude) and ... Yes and Rush and Genesis. If you are looking for the Sun Ra/Art Ensemble/etc. artists, I'll tell you when I find some. Meanwhile, I'd like to point out that my initial comments were directed towards the assumed "progressivism" of using instrumental solos. How "trad" can you GET?! Frankly, yr number 4 I'd be very interested in seeing more of. Admittedly, my initial white comment was meant to provoke. It did. I am happy. yay!

Because ddrake said so.

It really is like being out on the playground again.
Cinniblount has yet to say anything relevent.
PS: didn't apply to Oberlin
PPS: Oberlin is a shitty school
PPPS: You suck.

dude, are you talking to me? Cause I wasn't arguing this at all.

You deny that possibility for the rest of us...

So argue with me about it rather than personally insulting a talking head on the internet.

ddrake has yet to respond to what anyone actually said (as opposed to what he'd like to pretend they said)

What?!

Dude what the fuck are you talking about? Have you been paying attention to what I've said at all?

Is this some sort of joke?

http://www.persil.co.uk/images/in/images2/ironing.jpg

1. My contention that "Extended songs, with long organic instrumental sections" were not in fact progressive and were in fact REgressive.

2. My intentionally provacative comment that this was a "white" perspective.

The flagpoll! 12:05 AM EST!

I'll concede the poem to be "powerful," but I've always had a weakness for Baraka's style - this weakness is I suspect is in fact related to my tendency to say things like "oh, if he wrote that, then fuck 'im." It's here: http://www.amiribaraka.com/blew.html

Oh, you're not Geir, you're Doompatrol! Makes sense now.

I should have just posted "Anticon" and run away.

damn.

I'll leave the circus now. :-)

(Oh, and, yes, God bless the Nihilist)

fuck you.

Who wants to join my Friendster web?

Is Darnielle really saying that because of something Baraka said in 2001, we ought to discount his writings from the 60s?!

Is Blount really belittling someone for the school they attend? Is Ned really playing along with this?

Did Dom Passatino really go look up a poster's personal information on the internet, and then come back to the thread with it giggling like a little fucking schoolgirl?

Unbelievable.

My antipathy for ddrake has other sources, specifically here. Honestly, I know nothing of what Wooster's reputation is or isn't, though I am bemused at the hate it seems to engender.

Although honestly I still can't figure out why dee drake dude thinks Blues People has much to do with this argument. It's a great book, but wtf?!? (altho to be even more honest I like Black Music better.)

There are many fine institutions of higher learning in Ohio.

An understatement.

(nihilist=good tho)

He's very proud of his 'provocations' and has said so before, and then complains when he gets trashed. For my part, that's not very comprehensible, except in an extremely negative way.

I first got into hip-hop, or should i say hip-hop style beats via Meat Beat Manifesto, a band mostly considered "industrial", mainly because Wax Trax! was their US label for a small while when i discovered them. However, at the time, lower tempo breaks was a big part of their sound, and the way they laid it down just did it for me... anyway, without them I wouldn't have bothered trying out some of the hip-hop that was coming out at the time... (circa 1989, 1990, etc.),and frankly i wouldn't have gotten into hip-hop has much as I ever expected.

But being the college radio dork I was, I was always arguing with fellow DJs about things like "When is Hip Hop going to do 5/4 beats or start doing things to REALLY mix shit up like Meat Beat was back in 1989? Add some loud white noise.. or sample obscure Indian soundtracks or starting reversing the raps, or have asynchronous rapping, etc." Obviously, that's a rather embarrassing statement in retrospect, although a few of them have come true, sort of.

But the point is, these things "weren't happening" in hip-hop for me because i was just an eager college radio DJ really excited about various music styles, and just dreamed that someone out there would answer my prayers and perform the lab experiments i didn't have the resources or talent to do myself.

The reality is.. music gets, ahem, "taken to the next level" when no one's looking, and it's usually in a direction that no one, even eager fucking dorks like me, never expect. Gary Numan has much influence on early hip-hop as, say, Public Enemy has had on a lot of current rock music (for better or worse). I doubt any saw that. I doubt anyone could have forseen Timbaland.

So, it's NOT a bad idea to have dreams on how one would want to change a genre they like! And i hope no one is beating up on James for suggesting.. (though I can understand the wording was a little suspicious).

Things are being "held back" because people still like it the way it is, and it's selling. Until people get bored, then "the next level" may or may not happen.

How the fuck do *I*, DONUT FUCKING BITCH, get to become the next Timbaland? Where did he come from, anyway? An alien race of peg leg pirates?

I feel this post shouldn't be lost among Nihilist's other posts in this thread.

fwiw-- I also agree with the one post way up at the top, on how some of those "progressive" elements James mentioned are contrary to what Hip-hop is fundamentally about. I'm not saying those are bad ideas or that experimentation in hip-hop shouldn't happen/isn't possible, blah, blah, blah. Just that there is a reason why Schoenberg/James Joyce isn't a larger influence on Hip-hop. At a certain point it wouldn't be recognizable as hip-hop. The emphasis on Rhyming/Back Beat/Samples etc, etc, that was also mentioned up top, would be dashed.

He's very proud of his 'provocations' and has said so before, and then complains when he gets trashed

So I deserve this bullying because my opinion is stated in a provocative way? Interesting.
Rather than arguing the points I make, personal attacks and e-stalking is a lot better. Comparisons to other board members who are apparently held in disfavor, also very mature.

Man, this place is fucking cliquish. God forbid I disagree with the mighty AllMusic Guide reviewer. Congratulations on yr efame. I hope it makes you lots of efriends that you can ebully and estalk me with.

Why? Do you have to listen to LIttle Richard and Chuck Berry before wanting to hear stuff that suits your personal tastes better?

I don't really want to get started in this argument again, but my response to this would be that most people who become serious rock music fans start out - aside from childhood flirtations with pop - with "classic" rock, some sort of starting point in the rock genre from which they place their values - what aesthetics they value in music, and that this perspective is expanded over time. I'm not insisting that everyone listen to Kurtis Blow in order to "get" hip hop - and this is how I think Ned originally misunderstood me - but that everyone should understand - or try to understand - fully the hip hop AESTHETIC and value system before they can truly evaluate an artist.
Ned took exception to my assumption that he had not done this, which I presumed from looking at his 'favorite albums' list. I can understand why he would be upset to a certain extent, because I AM presuming this knowledge without knowing his listening experience, but I was arguing that the list spoke for itself - it wasn't HIM that I was dissing, but the perspective that the list displayed, a value system that I would argue lacks perspective. He then followed that by saying that I lack the same perspective; i agreed. We ended on a sour note. Or something along those lines.

Please ignore this post if it insights the fire in your belly.

Damn skippy.

can you give us a precis? or a few pointers? describe what it is from your pov? or is this gonna stay at some meta level?

I am afraid I am leaving myself dangling here so I'm going to explain what I mean a little better: The assumption is often that "whitening" of the music is inherently "progressive," and I was suggesting that this is not so. Note that whitening does not neccessarily have to do with the skin color of the musician - for instance, Dave Matthews Band minus Dave Matthews recording a hip hop album would still be creating a hip hop album with a rock aesthetic and therefore it would be REgressive rather than PROgressive. So "whitening" in the case in which I am using it refers to the values inherent in the musicians' musical ideas. White CULTURE rather than white PEOPLE.

can you give us a precis? or a few pointers? describe what it is from your pov? or is this gonna stay at some meta level?

While my musical values come from a more hip hopist perspective simply because that is what I surrounded myself with as a kid, and then growing up, (jazz also), perhaps I have a different perspective than a lot of people here. I don't want to act like I'm some hip hop scholar or something though here to educate the masses, because I'm not at all. Forreal, the best way to do it is explore it yrself, read about the artists, etc. Even if you don't listen to ALL the artists from the early 80s, understanding WHY the music was created - for example, that hip hop is based on deconstruction and reconstruction of older song forms, repetition, percussive drive, James Brown style drumming, the fact that it was initially made as dance music...all stuff that is important to know....a "hip hopist" would say that a rapper using a live band is NOT "real hip hop"; I disagree. But I think a lot of the time rock critics would use use of rock instrumentation or values as a "maturation" of hip hop - (thus the vaunted position of the Roots on critics polls) rather than seeing sample-based music as its own legitimate musical aesthetic.

"The assumption"? from whom?

James.
You are asking for whiter hip hop.
Admit it.

I think hip hop has been asking for whiter hip hop since it was born. I love that footage of Afrika Bambaata raving about Gary Numan and him DJing it back in the day. Kraftwerk anyone?

(You know, white guys like Numan and Hutter And Schneider who use "instruments")

Different from the race of the artist. Bambaataa created music in the hip hop aesthetic, which of course overlaps rock music in a good 50% of its values.

Know what's a great song?

PS: Seriously, check out World Destruction.
R-R-R-Reagan.

Ah, so "white-ification" = "long instrumental solos"... like Jimi Hendrix, or almost all of jazz.

This whole over-analyzing and adjective-laden term assignment about the AESTHETIC of hip hop is just really boggling. I'm very eager about the history of hip-hop, as it is VERY fascinating, but discussing this any further at this point is like arguing over what "punk" means, as opposed to just talking about the "roots" of punk or whatever.

Although I hope we never have a Paul Simon/ Peter Gabriel of hip hop.

Though it's funny that ddrake considers this track "bridging" the hip-hop aesthetic, as I thought it was just Bill Laswell wanking over large glam rock beats with two guys shouting awkwardly over it.

as far as hip hop threads go, some have turned the discarded Mind/Body split into pure Body -- as if that is what Hip Hop is supposed to be, though it never has been from the very beginning. The fascism of the Rump is as smothering as the fascism of the Mind.

I think the original poster got so much heat because he seemed to have this misconception about what rap is, and then he suggested it should be made more "progressive" by elements, which are either not progressive or already exist in rap. So, before you criticize rap for being "not progressive", you should listen to it a bit more.

Uh, Wyclef Jean?

The next NWW project, which Stapleton is working on at the moment, is going to be a hip-hop album. It will also feature a very talented female rapper.

Film at eleven.

stence where do you think I live? this his puzzling the hell out of me

what I said:

it's foul enough to make you reexamine anything you might've thought about his previous work

I'd stand by that, and don't think it's actually that reactionary a position from a critical standpoint

3. Unusal or experimental vocal intonation and phrasing. Or vocal lines processed electronically with more than just a vocoder.

Lyrics Born. If you're not J3ss H4rv3ll, you may likey a lot. He's very chameleonic and unprecedented. And funky as fuck.

4. Hip hop with heavy use of non-western influences and sounds (African, Indian, Asian) or peripheral western sounds. And not just a programmed beep vaguely rooted in a non-western scale.

MODERN HIP-HOP RADIO TO THREAD

Unrap: a collection of hip hop cuts from the left

Lewis Parker 'Shadow Of Autumn'
Earthling 'Nefisa'
Anti-Pop Consortium 'Ghost Lawns'
Optical 'Reckless Dub'
Funkstorung 'Grammy Winners'
DJ Shadow 'Midnight In A Perfect World (GAB mix)'
MC Solaar 'Le Concubline De Hemogbline'

what else?

what are you getting at fiddo?

MadLib

Dude, shut the fuck up.
"giving it a bad name," what the fuck are you, 12?
And I never claimed that I KNEW he hadn't heard world destruction! For fuck's sake, you guys can be assholes. I asked him if he heard it, he ignored my question, so I assumed that meant he hadn't.
What the fuck does it take to NOT get treated like shit around here and still disagree with someone!?

I think the original poster got so much heat because he seemed to have this misconception about what rap is, and then he suggested it should be made more "progressive" by elements, which are either not progressive or already exist in rap. So, before you criticize rap for being "not progressive", you should listen to it a bit more.

Which is what I was saying the entire fucking time.

How exactly was I being immature?
Looking up people's personal information on the internet? Oh wait, that was someone else.
Personal insults? Nope, someone else again.
Comparisons to other board members held in less esteem?
Nope, that would be other people too.

An attempt to have a frank discussion about music? How "immature" of me.
Did you even READ this thread, "nickalicious"? Maybe you'll pay attention if I use yr email address to track down yr personal information.

to o. nate - who said I was trying to stop him? as I said before - "he can listen to whatever he damn well pleases."

Sadly, because life is deeply unfair, I have no interest or desire in going back and singling out everyone on the thread who was acting the ass, so you'll have to settle for the following:

ATTENTION ILM PLEASE EAT A GIGANTIC DISEASED DICK OK THX

J0hn I'm surprised you aren't giving Baraka the benefit of the doubt, y'know, poetic license and all. And the "one state westward" stuff was about how your position is exactly that of the Democratic governor of New Jersey, James McGreevey, who eliminated the New Jersey Poet Laureate position because Baraka wouldn't resign - somebody said "at least he's not Rick Santorum," who is of course one state westward in Pennsylvania.

Read more about it from Baraka's p.o.v. if you like. Not saying I agree with his reasoning all of the time, but the attempts to silence him because he dare write a poem are outrageous and uncalled for.

but that's all for a different thread I s'pose.

Maybe it is because ddrake cannot state his opinion on anything in a way that doesn't reek of asshattery.

"I don't like it, therefore claims that it's good are specious"

Notice how big boi kicked it off with "I agree with ddrake."

One of the saddest/funniest things about all this is assuming that everyone else who has posted on this thread with (well-deserved) barbs in your direction does so simply because they're my toadies or something like that.

James.
You are asking for whiter hip hop.
Admit it.
-- ddrake (ddrak...), November 17th, 2003 10:54 PM.

To be perfectly honest.

x-post woah lemme get back to ya on this fucking A

James.
You are asking for whiter hip hop.
Admit it.

Big Boi singled out a specific crew for specific reasons and didn't race-bait.

Geir, shut up, please, you don't know what you're talking about.

And then there are sentences which make me ponder if humanity is not worth exploding to death.

Bullshit.
Well-deserved? Perhaps you'd like to explain.

maybe because your repeat yourself to an unusual degree, take more pride in being right all along than is really necessary for this discussion, and come across as extremely self-righteous? just a guess
This describes pretty much every person on ILM.

I think Matos just did.

And I responded in turn.

Roland,
Uhh....I went to a pretty decent college, and I'm still not sure what you just said.

etc. etc. etc.

By the way, Geir is hilarious.

x-post Okay I have to leave this thread forever now cuz that post actually made my blood-pressure rise.

this calls for a meta-thread but I really think it's healthy when this sort of thing happens, at least if people can stay mellow enough to keep from stomping off

me : geir posts regarding hip-hop :: motorists in traffic : car crash

I'm not excusing anyone's behavior. I'm just trying to be helpful.

(Honestly, when you were going on in circles examing the hip hop aesthetic, "values", and white culture (but not white race), and long instrumentals, and white-ification, but yet allowing overlap in some cases, it really threw circles arounds the thread and did no one any good, mostly yourself.)

8==>{}

(yes, of COURSE it's juvenile!)

I wasn't going "in circles" with regards to my logic about hip hop.
I wasn't allowing overlap in "some cases," i said that ALL music has cultural overlap - i mean, sample based production SAMPLES music from another culture.

And frankly, I think I have a right to be un-relaxed - or PISSED THE FUCK OFF - when people are searching the internet for my fuckgin PERSONAL FUCKING INFORMATION.
I'm sorry if you disagree.

To be utterly honest, I didn't really get what was going on initially. I will say you can do just the same with me easily enough through my own campus/place of employment:

http://www.uci.edu/cgi-bin/phonebook?raggett

I mean, it's public info -- if this is something you'd rather not have available for review by anyone, get it changed if you can or ask your campus to change it for you. You shouldn't feel obligated to share things you'd rather keep private (and again, I know nothing of Wooster's reputation in general), but the Internet *is* an open resource and you either have to be careful about it or else be aware of the potential compromises. There's a reason many people post here with spam-attack addresses or pseudonyms.

As for whether or not your argument was going in circles or not, you've got people saying it was...so are they wrong or do you want to review your argument to see why people got that impression? Cripes, I'm unclear all the time about things that seem perfectly logical in an argument to me, and sometimes it takes another pair of eyes to say, "Well, you know..."

Well, then I'll ask one last time. How come, then, you attacked James for most of his suggestions, which would clearly imply his vision of overlap, if indeed overlap occurs in ALL music? What was wrong with the overlap he suggested? You never quite explained the heresy in his suggestions, except accusing him of wanting to turn hip-hop more "white" -- which then became "white culture" (as opposed to "white race") which then ended up being defined as "long instrumentals and some such" at one point, which was really bizarre, and sorry to say, created definite loops in your argument, as "long instruemtals" is something quite exclusive from any single music culture, as they exist in practically EVERY musical culture, black and white, etc. I mean, can you not detect the loop and confusion there? I still contend you were arguing in circles. Sorry.

And yes, it does suck when someone looks up your personal info. That's creepy, but it wasn't me doing this, so don't ever fucking mix your emotions regarding that and then take it out on me in the same post, got it?

WAH! Hey, wait!

Well, then I'll ask one last time. How come, then, you attacked James for most of his suggestions, which would clearly imply his vision of overlap, if indeed overlap occurs in ALL music? What was wrong with the overlap he suggested?

I think this question was answered earlier in the thread, near the very beginning: 12 tone based hip-hop with lyrics by W. Whitman would no longer be hip-hop.

You never quite explained the heresy in his suggestions, except accusing him of wanting to turn hip-hop more "white" -- which then became "white culture" (as opposed to "white race") which then ended up being defined as "long instrumentals and some such" at one point, which was really bizarre, and sorry to say, created definite loops in your argument, as "long instruemtals" is something quite exclusive from any single music culture, as they exist in practically EVERY musical culture, black and white, etc. I mean, can you not detect the loop and confusion there? I still contend you were arguing in circles. Sorry.

I can see where there is confusion, but I can explain it to you if you'd like. Certainly I'm not suggesting that all extended instrumental passages are "white culture." (And by the way, "white" always refers to "white culture" unless I'm referring to what I thought most intelligent societies had established was a social construct of "race"). What I meant was that from a ROCK perspective (and there are many "rock" perspectives, but they all are considerably different from hip hop perspectives on music) extended instrumental solos make for interesting art - and that from the beginning, rock was based on instrumental music. I was associating this rockist critique with a specifically culturally WHITE rock perspective - the average music fan of Classic Rock Radio, say. I was arguing that instrumental music does not make hip hop any more groundbreaking, and associating this idea is particularly "white," assuming that the person suggesting it is coming from a rock background - of course if they are coming from say a jazz background, rather than being "white" its being "old." haha.

And yes, it does suck when someone looks up your personal info. That's creepy, but it wasn't me doing this, so don't ever fucking mix your emotions regarding that and then take it out on me in the same post, got it?

I don't think I have done that to you - but you haven't made any personal insults to me that I can remember. UNlike Ned, UNlike the other asshats who were posting before, you argued against my ideas rather than me myself. Thank you.

PS: I don't claim my ideas are faultless, I'm sorry if I've come across that way.

Blount you (and many others) were just as foolish. Somebody needs to lock this shit, it's going in circles (down the toilet).

FIle under: statements that deny themselves. I mean, you have the term hip hop right in there! .....hip hop....would no longer be hip hop. Huh?

PS: I don't claim my ideas are faultless, I'm sorry if I've come across that way.

Like it or not, ddrake, assuming that you were correct in assuming that I had heard no hip-hop and that you had the 'right' idea of what an extremely personal best-of list should be like felt like a pretty damn personal insult to me. You started on the wrong foot and then compounded things as you went, and if you're now realizing that it was a mistake, I'm willing to hear you say as such. Otherwise portraying yourself as the sole wounded victim in this situation is martyrology I'm not interested in.

There's gold in them thar hills!

I have been drunk since August.

haha just because someone says something ISN'T hip hop doesn't make it so!

oooh, someones on the deconstructionist tip.

Ah, where this is where "in my humble opinion" becomes the key phrase. Terms, definitions, values, aesthetics change over time.
Musical history has a nah-sty habit of changing over time (a topic worthy of another thread) Yeah, that concepts sounds really funny NOW.... (Muahaahahahaah)

I was arguing that instrumental music does not make hip hop any more groundbreaking, and associating this idea is particularly "white," assuming that the person suggesting it is coming from a rock background

"in your humble opinion". "in his humble opinion"
"just bringin' it back to the days of IMHO'llin'"

He DID learn! He used the word "asshats"!!!

Of course its "IMHO."

arguable

from the beginning, rock was based on instrumental music

The blues are mainly instrumental?

oooh, someones on the deconstructionist tip.

How so? I fail to see much to do with deconstructionism in the cited comment.

And I appreciate that. It IS personal, however, to assume that you know what someone has or hasn't heard, to assume that you know best what someone honestly likes more or less than something else, and so forth. Those are personal judgments and the net effect is to say, "Well, your opinion is wrong on an objective level, sorry." You couldn't have raised my hackles any more effectively and you couldn't have come across as any more humorless as a result. What I've said before stays just as true now -- don't hang around on a board thinking that you've found something which 'clearly' nobody else knows about or might not have already encountered, and don't draw automatic assumptions from what someone says about themselves or their preferences that somehow 'explains' everything about them. You're only going to get a hell of a lot of grief and most of it will be with damn good reason.

"You're out of yr element donnie."

see ddrake this is the kind of smug *bam* i'm smart me bullshit that gets me pissed. i actuallyhaven't read Blues People. This tells me nothing. This gives me no reason to read it. This is just a pretentious kid dropping names. At least gimme the salient points which have SOMETHING to do with whats being argued here.

You're all up for arguments, supposedly. So John drops you this:

Fine, but that's a very arguable position - not one you can "Bam!" as though revealing the Truth From On High. I'd argue that context limits the capacity for insight, and a fair number of people who think about reading/interpretation would tend to agree.

and what do you reply? what do you reply? you complain about being compared to Geir, instead of responding by arguing your point.

and
But no, I can't really offer pointers any more than anyone else can tell me in frank terms exactly what makes ROCK.
YOU FEEL IT MAN!!!

this was your attempt at a joke...right?

Bam.

Of course its arguable. That's what I'm doing, presenting an argument.

The blues are mainly instrumental?

The beginning of one's conception of the rock aesthetic, i.e. "Rock REALLY began with the beatles!" "Rock began with the Velvet Underground, for me," etc.

How so? I fail to see much to do with deconstructionism in the cited comment.

If he wants to play that way, "hip hop" can mean anything, and this entire thread is pointless. Perhaps "hip hop" refers to all music ever created. In which case my argument is no longer valid. Fuck circles, lets go in a mobius strip.

Ummm...no. That was me NOT being "pretentious," or claiming that I have any sort of knowledge to drop on anyone, simply because I DON'T know what yr experiences are.
i emphasize that Blues People is a great book though. I'm sorry that isn't convincing enough.

How so? I fail to see much to do with deconstructionism in the cited comment.

"If deconstruction means anything, it means that statements such as "deconstructionism means x" are meaningless."
-Jacques Derrida (roughly)

The correct response to that would be "I'd have to hear it first."

You mean besides "punk"?

Oooh, jess got the keys.. gotta get my dick in here somewhere...

============D

YEEEEEAH baby... lock it now, you sexy mofo

Substitute Blues People with, say, "The Bible" and you see why we're a bit bugged here. Fundamentalism's pretty boring in any guise.

Or in some cases, extremely funny.

There's always room for variety.

Momus has his filter set so threads about hip-hop aren't visible

I'd be interested to see how you think Blues People is "fundamentalism."

1. Play Squarepusher in one CD player
2. Play Ned Raggett Reads the Almanac in another

This should be something akin to what you seek

http://www.victorynetwork.org/ArtFile/BillySunday2.jpg

(pssst, ddrake, I don't think Ned was talking about the book)

(still making your card, cinnibuns)

This is why people have been using the word "fundamentalism" over the last ten or twenty posts, btw

AHHAHAHAHHA1!1!!1!!

world destructor is pretty cool but i wouldn't rank it above pm dawn.

I'd rank PM Dawn somewhere between Arrested Development and Talib Kweli.

You'd know.

"The classic example of this sort of phenomenon is with fundamentalist Christians, who will tell you that if you read the New Testament and didn't convert, then you "didn't understand" it."

Hey donut, I got it. Read what followed.
I asked him to explain why he disagreed.

Are YOU having trouble reading?

Well, but what you said was: That he wasn't displaying any knowledge of having comprehended the book

That's fundamentalism. What he wasn't displaying was that his knowledge conformed to yours.

I care, much like Carrow's.

Remember, Ned, than when anyway tells you "ned, seriously, fuck you", they mean love and bunnies.

ONCE again, another bullshit "hahahahaah I'm so funny" comment by Ned, instead of actually explaining or arguing any sort of point here. Assuming one portion of my argument that isn't accurate, reposting it over and over again....oh yr so clever.

Fucker.

That's fundamentalism. What he wasn't displaying was that his knowledge conformed to yours.

I got yr point smartass. And my follow up was "so what was it that you disagreed with."

I ALWAYS assume that, DB. And when somebody calls me a 'fucker,' it is only out of the spirit of agape as the Greeks spoke of.

I told ned to fuck himself in response to a cavalcade of personal insults he'd already heaped on me in this thread. Wise ass remarks, etc etc etc

Nope.

Or, perhaps I'm asking for him to clarify what it is he doesn't agree with? Which would have been a relevant thing to discuss back when I first mentioned the book waaaaaay back in the thread. But it was much easier to take the easier way out and personally insult me for another 400 posts.

Sounds like you dodged J0hn's point -- then whined and bitched and hyperbolized about how you got insulted... again.

I told ned to fuck himself in response to a cavalcade of personal insults he'd already heaped on me in this thread. Wise ass remarks, etc etc etc

Have we SERIOUSLY come to the kindergarten era "You started it first" argument, now?

You're dodging the issue! The subject isn't Blues People at all! It's that you took issue with being called a fundamentalist, and, q.e.d., the relevants quotes regarding your fundamentalist attitude have been shown! I am sorry if you took my last post to be smart-assy, I didn't mean it that way.

The hypocrisy of people calling ME out for acting like a child after what went on for the majority of this thread is baffling.

The fact that J0hn still refuses to answer this:
You're dodging the issue! The subject isn't Blues People at all! It's that you took issue with being called a fundamentalist, and, q.e.d., the relevants quotes regarding your fundamentalist attitude have been shown! I am sorry if you took my last post to be smart-assy, I didn't mean it that way.

So your purpose in this thread is to get me into some sort of logical trap? See, I thought it was the actual issue we were discussing, which WOULD be Blues People.

well ok perhaps nothing is "absolutely" relevant but you get my point

J0hn, "biases inherent in my approach to discourse"? So what are you saying, I'm not arguing correctly? Excuse me. In the meantime, lets avoid the point of what I'd been saying by attacking the way in which I argue, even though clearly this point is irrelevant to my argument as a whole.

BECAUSE NED HAS NOT READ THE BOOK AND IS NOT OBLIGATED TO READ THAT BOOK NOR ANY FUCKING BOOK THAT YOU'VE READ BECAUSE ARGUING ON THE PREMISE OF A BOOK THAT ONLY YOU'VE PROBABLY READ MAKES YOU LOOK LIKE A FUCKING SNOB AND A VERY FRAGILE DEFENSIVE SNOB AT THAT

If he doesn't want to read it, I'm not trying to fucking make him!

Using a previously written book as the basis of an argument makes me into a "snob"?! What the fuck is wrong with you?

AS A FUCKING RECOMMENDATION.

*scratches head, looks upthread*

Seriously Ned, read Blues People.
To quote big lebowski.

"You're out of yr element donnie."

Bam.

-- ddrake (ddrak...), November 17th, 2003. (later)

Maybe there's a Dr. D. and Mr. Drake situation here.

Yes, we will lock threads for you because you can't control yourself posting on them.

Because the person you're arguing with has the unfair advantage of not having the knowledge contained within the book, and therefore not only makes the continuation of said argument silly and invalid but gives you gloating points for being more "literate". Don't pretend otherwise, fucker x 401. (Sorry, had to one up Ned there)

not that you're "not arguing correctly" - Baraka himself would point out that the ways in which one frames one's arguments speak as loudly as and possibly louder than the arguments themselves

but y'all don't hear me though -B.I.G.

Hey, you're right! And what a clear and sweet recommendation it was! Like saying the word 'fucker,' it is done out of love.

this is NOT a semantic issue and to pretend it is is ungallant

Because the person you're arguing with has the unfair advantage of not having the knowledge contained within the book, and therefore not only makes the continuation of said argument silly and invalid but gives you gloating points for being more "literate". Don't pretend otherwise, fucker x 401. (Sorry, had to one up Ned there)

What the fuck!? That's why I RECOMMENDED HE READ IT, because he DIDN'T have the knowledge contained within. HOW THE FUCK DOES THAT MAKE ME A SNOB!?

Actually Ned, "Read it motherfuckers" was the first recommendation

That was definitely before any animosity had developed in the thread, and "motherfuckers" was not used in the same way I've been using profanity for the last couple posts.
Nice try taking it out of context though.

Jesus H., the Mormons make their case better. Scratch that, the LaRouchians.

It did NOT, however, make me want to fuck his mother.

Then clearly he has failed in his grand mission.

As I said.

That was definitely before any animosity had developed in the thread, and "motherfuckers" was not used in the same way I've been using profanity for the last couple posts.
Nice try taking it out of context though.

HO HHO HO HO OH O

"There's this really good book I've read called Blues People by Leroi Jones. It makes some great points on this argument that I think can apply today and to this argument -- if you haven't read it, give it a try. I really like it because [reasons x, y, z]."

Had you just said that or something like it, I don't think much of this thread would exist in the first place. Why does being 'provocative' make your point stronger?

the first thing i thought of when i saw the original question(s) was the 9 minute version of 'a day like no other' by Company Flow featuring assorted japanese MCs, its got lots of different sections, i've always thought of it as a sort of prog track. erm, thats all.

Because you dropped your cards and claimed yourself winner of the argument the easy way... It's pointless to continue.. here, go to Amazon and check out Pedro V. Pajitnov's Debate and Demeanor. So you can school yourself, because it looks like you need it.

It shouldn't have. "Mothefuckers" was not intended to suggest animosity, and was rather a general, "what's up, fuckers." Not intended to be insulting, particularly. I'm sorry if you read it that way.

Had you just said that or something like it, I don't think much of this thread would exist in the first place. Why does being 'provocative' make your point stronger?

excuse me. I shall work on this in the future
Allow me to recommend the book once again.

Because you dropped your cards and claimed yourself winner of the argument the easy way...

As opposed to what you've been doing this entire thread?

This is easier than a frisky kitten and a laser pen!

You evil genius, sir.

Yeah, that's how we all start our threads around here.

"Hold Me Now," easy. Lurvly ballad.

I still think any further 'engagement' with him from any ilxors is tantamount to running up the score.

You're probably right there.

And so it is demonstrated yet again that if you leave a thread-gone-wrong to its own devices, it will eventually justify itself in a great flash of glory and splendor.

(I have been dying of laughter from these past ten minutes or so and DB just took the cake.)

i missed this bit

we do need a 'justify my ethug' 7" stat

OMNIPOTENT BABY AHOY.

"he who does not feel me is not real to me and therefore he does not exist/so poof vamoose you son of a bitch"

Yo! What would you do if I could prove you didn't exist and it was true
Like ??? solidified
proof of your essence

Of you in the spoof of your birth
Now I guess that would lesson your
worth to the dirt and the earth
And the leaf, now I leave you alone without belief that your
really here
And assist you beneath your fear
An endearing tear would fall if all that I said
was true,
Am I right or ???, too complex for quote
I'll have the final say,
Like the rope to
the boat to the dock, you're not free yet, man
You're sick, stuck, caught, sick in the head,
Stuck
to the bed, you're dumbfed
Diseased with that mononuclear, what I look like money?!
That
latin listening to Coolio? So I ask,
What was your mom's task when she had you?
If fully she
knew that through all of her pain
Her baby was born without brain and insane and just plain,
no
style! No smile, your memories are worth a shitpile to me
You believe that you're free?!!
Man, free from your mom,
Free from the man and most of all free from me but you see,
I've caught
you! My bad you don't really exist,
So I got to, explain this so when I tell you how not to,
You
won't do it, I'm screwin your thinkin!
I know I exist and I prove it cause I'm listening to you
But
I ask, what if God was an evil genius who only made you believe you were
true?
And your life
was nothing man! Just a really long dream
And when you die you'll start a whole new life, a whole
new dream
But that was just a dream, and it seems man you can't break out the cycle
Am I crazy?
Go to your church and ask your white God if I'm right though,
Whatever he replies will be lies,
we've already established this evil,
When I'm lying, you don't exist but merely as emotion
and perceival,
Believe you'll be round tomorrow kid, yo,
You've borrowed time with no entrance,
And
since you're a dream I can mentally put on the pinch
And you disappear in an instant,

yeah, I totally got "owned" in thread, especially by cinnablount, who didn't actually pay attention to what I was arguing.

Man, this thread was one lame fuck with ddrake thread nearly from the beginning.

What a fucking joke.

I clearly didn't mean it as an insult. You know that, so you really can shut up about it.

Clearly, this thread hasn't been a bunch of mutherfuckers jumping down my neck from the beginning.

well it hasn't! it might have gotten intense, but I think most everybody was trying to discuss things with you! yes even Blount! elliptical discussion doesn't mean it's not discussion, heated discussion doesn't mean it's not discussion, even way-overheated discussion still counts!

not "paranoid": just "defensive," maybe justifiably so, but the puzzling thing about getting defensive is that it usually fails to provide much protection/shelter/however one wants to describe what being defensive does.

(please don't take that as 'jumping on you' or something. i'm trying to help ya out)

"I can't think of any other occasional on ilx where someone has had their ass as out and out schooled as ddrake on this thread. and I still think any further 'engagement' with him from any ilxors is tantamount to running up the score."

Yeah, what a "game" it was. I don't really see how my opinion was "owned" at all. Certainly there were minor flaws in my argument, but no more than in anyone else's. And I admitted it when their were and refined my argument par the course. But there was some SERIOUS ganging-up-on-ddrake going on. Not just the cyberstalking, but what amounted to harrassment of ME rather than a discussion of my ideas. Or even a HEATED discussion of my ideas.
See the difference, Ned? (if you're out there?)
I attacked your LIST
You attacked ME.

1) Original poster James picks misleading/provocative thread title and couches what would otherwise be a harmless inquiry about experimental rap in the dangerous area of "rap on the whole is stagnant and I want the newness".
2) The usual suspects mock this. Most of us are all "ok, fine, pfhsgh" because we're familiar with these posters. ddrake initially chimes in with "instruments in rap /= progressive" and gets little if any real hostility.
3) ddrake then mistakes "progressive/experimental" for "white", flings out a "you know that's what you really mean" equivalent ("admit it") and suddenly the tone of Typical ILM Prog-Rap Mockery gets a bit weird
4) Ned sez "because instruments are white! oh wait" and ddrake fires back "U R NOT OF TEH FUNNIE"
5) ddrake: "Seriously though, unless you actually know the hip hop history, which it sounds like you don't, I'd wait to listen to "prog" hip hop. " [emphasis mine]
6) A couple more joke posts, a couple geniune attempts to steer the thread into actual topical coherence ("Dalek?"), J0hn being all "Ned OTM"
7) dd: "Oh give me a break! Dilute, my friends, dilute!" Then he goes onto some snotty "prog is unfun" jibe.
8) Jokes jokes jokes. The nate that is not me says "The twisted part is that some people actually like challenging their brains."
9) dd: "Rush! Yes! Prog stupid! Also read it, motherfuckers!"
10) not me nate: "But Braxton/Cornel/Toni Morrison..."
11) Ned to o. nate: "ddrake will get mad at you now and claim you don't understand hip-hop. You are so burned. *cue ddrake: 'Ha ha, where is your sense of humor, dork, etc.'*"
12) "you're out of your league, donnie."
13) dd shortly later: "Blues People is a more incredible work than anything anyone on ILM has accomplished...a more important work as well. That I can't believe more of you haven't read." [here is where my arrogance alarm goes off.]
14) Ned sums up the crux of the issue: "Remind me again how you've assumed you know what everyone here has read/listened to/thought again? I missed the proof of your omniscience here."
15) Some stupid bullshit ensues
16) Wooster is namedropped
17) Accusations of privacy intrusions fly
18) The thread officially becomes ridiculous
19) Everyone tries to explain to ddrake why they're mad at him
20) ddrake gets mad defensive
21) I forgot to mention, blount has a field day
22) OWNED
23) A failed attempt to return to original discussion in the thread
24) ddrake: "So "whitening" in the case in which I am using it refers to the values inherent in the musicians' musical ideas. White CULTURE rather than white PEOPLE."
25) Oh no
26) nickalicious and scott seward simmer things down somewhat
27) Perry sums everything up neatly
28) Numerous thread-locking requests go out
29) Oh yeah, there's some stuff about Amiri Baraka in here too (c/o J0hn Darn1elle)
30) Someone named "Big Boi" stomps in, says "prog rap is shit!" only in much wordier terms, resorts to name-dropping the Strokes, then eventually disappears
31) "Ned and his ethugs" are mentioned
32) People start backtracking in an attempt to recap this thread
33) This goes on for a while
34) There is a delightful Popeye intermission
35) An ugly goulash of meta-spastic he-said-he-said "no no no I'M RIGHT I WIN" nonsense and arrogant written-in-stone declarations of what various genres TRULY AND REALLY ARE AND AREN'T, DAMN IT
36) This actually goes on for a while
37) http://hipsterdetritus.blogspot.com/cam.gif
38) more pictures, which ddrake calls "unclever"
39) see #35
40) I post this
41) I feel dirty

Congratulations.
I especially like how you mock my posts...i.e. U R NOT OF TEH FUNNIE

and just quote their posts as if they came from the most sensible, polite place in the universe.

Thank you, you've really summed up this thread "accurately."
Someone lock this bullshit.

This thread was at the top of the list of "new answers" when I came back from doing 3 hours of homework, actually.

19) Everyone tries to explain to ddrake why they're mad at him

Was this before or after everyone mocks me?

Definately check out Dalek, David. Especially the split 7" single called Nummer 3 on Bomb Mitte w/ Faust to clock in your number 2 category of sampling.

This came free with the last WIRE Tapper actually.

I need to get some sleep.

This thread is ridiculous...I can understand where I hear so much shit about ILM. Some cliquish motherfuckers some of you are.
Even when "big boi" TOLD you he was agreeing with me, you continued to give me shit.
My initial provocations taken too seriously.
My actual arguments met with jeers from the peanut gallery.
What a stupid bullshit thread this has been.

Now, here come a cavalcade of posts...

ddrake was owned, ddrake is so stupid, etc. etc. etc.
Ned Raggett having thugs! That's crazy! No, no one ganged up on him! ddrake just came and started trouble in our normally pure community!

Christ.

have a good fucking life.

This sentence makes me happy. :-)

So, what's the answer? My feeling is that snidey, snarky comments from regulars don't help. It can create a sense of cliqueiness and safety-in-numbers pack mentality (justifiably, or not). If you've heard it all before, perhaps it would be a good idea to either a) leave the thread as if a swarm of driver ants* were fast approaching, or b) post helpful links to previous discussions, then bow out (some, like Tracer Hand, seem to take this latter option as a matter of course).

*Very scary prospect, if true.

the ideas stated at the top of this thread suck. good ideas in the same vein don't exist that much. aside from kid 606. wait, that isn't clever. yeah, wait til i'm 20. i'll produce something cool as fuck.

the more i think about it and the less i type the more i realize you just want hip hop that isn't made by people who are ghetto but by people who have been through graduate school or something. yeah, anticon is sucking at that cuz they fall into the whitekid hipster ghetto trap. maybe you want to listen to prefuse 73. hahahah

ILXOR in todays Guardian

Sound like a good idea. The generaly quality of all kinds of music would have increased if all musicians had been through graduate school. Mind you, all those European 18th and 19th century classical composers had. :-)

There's lots of hip-hop with extended instrumentalism, in fact there's *gasp* a whole shitload of INSTRUMENTAL HIP-HOP ARTISTS!!! *loud gasp*

James, you may like...

*DJ Shadow
*DJ Spooky
*the afforementioned DJ Vadim
*Invisible Skratch Picklz
(in fact, watch Wave Twisters, an animated film whose entire score - dialog and all - is provided by DJ Q-bert)
*some of the collaborations Buckethead has done with various instrumental hip-hop artists (such as the album Bermuda Triangle he did with DJ Extrakd or the Praxis Transmutations Live album which is a performance by Buckethead & Invisible Skratch Picklz)

He isn't, but he wasn't a typical droupout, unlike Lennon, and has always seemed more interested in the music part than in the rebellion part.