HIPSTER (the pit of vipers)

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Don’t go in unguarded. Go ahead, tell them what they want to know, tell them your favorite band. But don’t let slip your heart.

Reveal what you most cherish and you expose an open flank. God help you – God help us all -- if you have a fondness for something vulgarly middlebrow, the “tasteful” or “acceptable” end of the mainstream, your OutKast or your Flaming Lips or – saints and prophets have mercy -- your Beatles. The sneering and scorn will be scathing. You will be hurled back into the pit of the average.

Yet throw up something more beloved, more sainted and canonized – Kraftwerk, let’s say, or Erik Satie or Sun Ra – elevate it to godhead and you will find someone ready to play the trump card of contrarianism. There is always someone prepared to melt the sacred cows down to bullion with the well-tuned phrase.

One recourse is to retreat deeper into the murky swamps of obscurantism. Trawl old crates of vinyl in Athens (Georgia or Greece will serve equally well) and learn to pronounce unpronounceables. But you are risking all when you name the band that, to you, seemed unaccountably unheard of. This game is about knowledge now, and who can be sure you’ve got it all? Watch the eyes gleaming behind the thin wireframes as you drop the name. A flicker of recognition and the game is up for good.

So go the other way. Go lowbrow. Embrace populism. These days you don’t even need a lame Marxist justification. You can even play the race card if you want to; go ahead and champion Jay-Z and the Eastside Boyz and imagine that you’ll be safe from scorn. But know the chances you’re taking, white boy. You’re risking charges of tokenism on the one hand, or a bohemian soulboy fetish on the other. Subtle, veiled. Such things aren’t said aloud. But they will be thought.

Better still, least bad of all, to lash yourself to the mast of the most pop of pop music, the carefully sculpted and styled boybands and protooled airbrushed glossy pinups. Hail the ex-Mouseketeers without rancor or irony. Your opponents will have no recourse, no easy counter. All the arguments have already been made and digested. If they fall back on the standard, the accusations of the fake and the mass-marked manipulated, they will simply sound tired and old. You may even manage to flummox the least adept.

But careful where you tread now. This is no man’s land. These people are smarmy and insecure and overeducated and both personally and professionally frustrated. They’re spoiling for a fight, for a bloody nose smashed against the glass wall. They’ve read the latest Village Voice thinkpiece and formulated the entire range of acceptable critical responses and countercritiques. They’re tired of crowding into a herd of 8 million independent thinkers. They’re polished, studied. Their masks fit tight on their faces. They know the greatest weakness is sincerity and the cruelest weapon is indifference. And they’re oh so fucking clever.

― fool, Sunday, 4 January 2004 08:28 (twenty-one years ago)

So, are you saying that whatever you like, if you reveal that to someone else, there is a chance that they might disagree with you?

― gareth (gareth), Sunday, 4 January 2004 08:32 (twenty-one years ago)

If there is such a thing as a weakness (and i'm not sure how that really works in the context you describe), i would have thought the weakness wasn't sincerity, but was defensiveness or over-sensitivity?

― gareth (gareth), Sunday, 4 January 2004 08:34 (twenty-one years ago)

Although, to be honest, i think, if we are talking about hanging around with the certain stereotype that you are describing above, then the far greater weakness is to be ugly.

― gareth (gareth), Sunday, 4 January 2004 08:36 (twenty-one years ago)

Having an opinion sucks, doesn't it?

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Sunday, 4 January 2004 08:54 (twenty-one years ago)

Often for more than one person.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Sunday, 4 January 2004 08:59 (twenty-one years ago)

How about trying liking things because you like them and working your way onwards from there?

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Sunday, 4 January 2004 09:05 (twenty-one years ago)

it was actually kind of funny, i thought.

― Orbit (Orbit), Sunday, 4 January 2004 09:07 (twenty-one years ago)

Nah, I thought it was far too defensive and bitter to be funny. Had it been really nasty I might've laughed.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Sunday, 4 January 2004 09:11 (twenty-one years ago)

"You're only like this because you're crap at sexing and you could never tie your own shoes so had to have velcro ones!"

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Sunday, 4 January 2004 09:12 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm quite certain the person who posted this meant it to be taken seriously.

How about trying liking things because you like them and working your way onwards from there?

That's how we all start, but the working your way onwards is the painful part. Learning what you like and don't like about who or whatever in music is a long process, of course fraught with all sorts of classism and elitism and... well, that's always been the way. This isn't the specific domain of some Wicker Park stereotype. It's the way people who think a lot about music act toward one other more often than not. It's not a sin. And sure, there's always some numbnut who's ready to jump from the shadows and dis your favorite band. Not just here. Anywhere.

But any of this seemingly unnecessary pain is worth it to anyone who doesn't care to listen to the same shit over and over for the rest of his life.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Sunday, 4 January 2004 09:15 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm quite certain the person who posted this meant it to be taken seriously.

bbbut--that's *why* i thought it was funny...
it's a nice rant, with a few amusing zingers in it; but it looks like it's just designed to wind people up.

― Orbit (Orbit), Sunday, 4 January 2004 09:35 (twenty-one years ago)

The poster's arguments aren't nearly obscure enough - I've heard them before countless times!

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Sunday, 4 January 2004 09:48 (twenty-one years ago)

Exactly!

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Sunday, 4 January 2004 09:53 (twenty-one years ago)

No, I think it is meant to be taken seriously. But I can't have sympathy for it. You could fault the writer for indulging in the very things he's complaining about. Like his strawman hispters, he's trying to find that one shining angle that leaves his opinion the last one standing and removes the pain of being challenged. "You just to pretend to like it because you suffer from white liberal guilt!" is countered with the "You just pretend to like it because you're playing a sick game of one upmanship!" and both are equally unanswerable (and just a little bit silly -- a little). It's a version of "Shut down your computers and shut your goddamn pieholes. No one gives a shit what you write, so stop writing about . Shut up, all of you." He's not asking for a nicer dialogue, a more humane or fruitful one -- he's asking for the death of all dialogue.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Sunday, 4 January 2004 09:54 (twenty-one years ago)

The weird blank after "so stop writing about" should've had "< insert subject here >" but like an idiot I never remember how HTML renders all that jazz. Sorry.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Sunday, 4 January 2004 09:56 (twenty-one years ago)

This unfocused rant isn't "bitter", it's just the predictable, sad product of a person who seems to use music to define personal identity. How about this for a plan, fool? Read a lot about music, download some music, listen to some music, and decide upon what appeals to you? Does that course of action seem difficult or somehow troublesome to you?

Why do care about music at all? Have you ever thought about why musicians (i.e. real other human beings) create the cultural production that they do? Like, the effort tutelage and so forth that so many amazing creators have invested in all sorts of disparate formalist musics; and the individual fits of pique which have led to so many striking outsider manifestos. Maybe that could be important to you. Maybe you could train your ears to listen to lots of music, and enjoy it for its humanism. If not, perhaps you could join a community organization. Like, cleaning parks or something. Maybe you should begin to pay attention to your local sports team. You might find that you derive more enjoyment out of the endeavor. Or perhaps, study the stock tables published every morning in your local paper. You might find that patterns emerge. You might be able to capitalize on those patterns in some manner. This could possibly lead to some pecuniary reward.

― Broheems (diamond), Sunday, 4 January 2004 09:57 (twenty-one years ago)

I haven't read a single word of this. But whoever is saying he's Sean, with his ID keyed to my email address, is an imposter. I clicked on the name and it led to my profile. I don't know what point of view this person is putting forth, but it's not mine.

The Sean you all know, saturnsf@yahoo.com

― Sean (Sean), Sunday, 4 January 2004 10:05 (twenty-one years ago)

Now I feel faintly ridiculous; there is some new "I Am" feature at the top of all threads?? What the hell is this? In any case, I guess ignore my post above.

― Sean (Sean), Sunday, 4 January 2004 10:12 (twenty-one years ago)

I really liked the last Wilco album.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Sunday, 4 January 2004 10:19 (twenty-one years ago)

mike i don't think it's clear he's asking for that! I couldn't read any real request out of this; we're left to assume the implied alternative to the hipster game he lays out.

the real flaw here is that 'hipsters' may be full of shit but generally they're pretty social and like getting along (you know, like people everywhere). so, IF you look like someone cool (cf gareth's otm-ness upthread about appearance) you can say any damn thing about anyone and chances are you'll get a 'yeah dude' out of it.

He wants the hipsters to know he's beaten them, and that they're game was stupid to begin with, which may or may not be mutually exclusive. neither one will GET YOU IN, though.

― g--ff (gcannon), Sunday, 4 January 2004 10:25 (twenty-one years ago)

their game, whoops

― g--ff (gcannon), Sunday, 4 January 2004 10:26 (twenty-one years ago)

He hasn't beaten anyone, tho - cuz he has no friends!

― Broheems (diamond), Sunday, 4 January 2004 10:31 (twenty-one years ago)

yes exactly. but then who are we supposed to be to him?

― g--ff (gcannon), Sunday, 4 January 2004 10:32 (twenty-one years ago)

(seriously, either ... you like music with your friends ... and you have a blast and you just, you know, like the stuff you like;;; or you, ya know, are self-hating, and are not very passionate about music at all)

― Broheems (diamond), Sunday, 4 January 2004 10:35 (twenty-one years ago)

the person who wrote this is obviously a flaming lips fan trying to justify their love for the supremely boring Soft Bulletin. Hah! nice try lame-o. I just made up the newest most up-to-date definition of a hipster:You must own albums by Paul Bowles and books by John Fahey. This definition will self-destruct in 24 hours. I will keep you abreast of the latest hipster fads for a small fee so that you remain current. More later. gotta go finish a think-piece.

― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 4 January 2004 12:59 (twenty-one years ago)

Um, I think most of what the dude says is more or less true, but stop whinging about it! What's the problem? Annoyed by human gregariousness?

It's no problem. Enjoy what you can. Put up with what you can't. No-one worth their salt will hate you for it. That goes for music and music criticism. And websites. And food. Especially food.

Basically: Frankie say: "relax"

― Jole, Sunday, 4 January 2004 15:06 (twenty-one years ago)

A friend of mine likes to say she wants to meet people who have mastered the art of thinking too much. The original poster, I fear, does not meet her standards.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 4 January 2004 15:13 (twenty-one years ago)

Its athens georgia. there's no way ppl in greece give a shit abt flaming lips or outkast.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Sunday, 4 January 2004 15:34 (twenty-one years ago)

if i didn't know gareth better i'd say he started this thread himself...

― stevem (blueski), Sunday, 4 January 2004 15:39 (twenty-one years ago)

but he said he hadn't seen Return Of The King, so that doesn't work

― stevem (blueski), Sunday, 4 January 2004 15:41 (twenty-one years ago)

I was wondering if that Athens line is meant a diss on Ethan...

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Sunday, 4 January 2004 15:44 (twenty-one years ago)

then there's the Outkast/Flaming Lips thing again

― stevem (blueski), Sunday, 4 January 2004 15:46 (twenty-one years ago)

I thought ethan started this thread.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Sunday, 4 January 2004 15:48 (twenty-one years ago)

What exactly was the starting point for "hipster" to become so pervasive of a cutdown? It's become so overused I don't even think I know what it means anymore. If you read how it was used in, say, the 60s, it used to have a pretty clear meaning (and one that didn't necessarily have a negative connotation).

But today nobody wants to be a hipster. It's always those other people. The way I see it, today the hipster either
a) knows less about said hip subject than you [they have a less broad picture of it] and doesn't match your sincerity or
b) knows more about said hip subject than you and is arrogant about it.

When the war in Iraq was beginning I read two arguments about it on two different boards. On one board, someone called the anti-war protesters "hipsters". On the other board, someone called the pro-war people "hipsters".

― Yoda Ono, Sunday, 4 January 2004 15:58 (twenty-one years ago)

I think the only reason I get so many hits on my blog is from googlers looking for the word "Hipster". Then they probably expect me to talk about my exciting life in trucker hats and Pabst-drinking*.

As for the original post: there but for the grace of god, there go I, I-yi-yi-yi-yi-yi.

*I actually saw the peak of this while at Karaoke with Matos and a couple friends: a dude in a PBR trucker hat. He sang "Jumpin' Jack Flash".

― nate detritus (natedetritus), Sunday, 4 January 2004 16:09 (twenty-one years ago)

Georgia or Greece will serve equally well

Greece, by all means.

― Rockist Scientist (rockistscientist), Sunday, 4 January 2004 16:30 (twenty-one years ago)

I was hoping the Athens Greece line was about me.

― Rockist Scientist (rockistscientist), Sunday, 4 January 2004 16:36 (twenty-one years ago)

I think I have inadvertantly hit on a solution: like tasteful mainstream popular music from other cultures. Most English speaking music hipsters know surprisingly little about mainstream pop/popular music from Greece, Arab countries, or large segments of Latin America. People might not think you are cool, but they will at least leave you alone, because they have no idea who you're talking about.

The older I get, the more I think that searching for completely pure motivation in yourself or in anyone else is a waste of time and energy.

― Rockist Scientist (rockistscientist), Sunday, 4 January 2004 16:42 (twenty-one years ago)

Although I have said similar things myself about ILM or some of its posters at one point or another. I was just recently complaining about the way liking Outkast (more than most other hip-hop) gets framed by certain people. But at the moment, I am finding I don't care about it.

― Rockist Scientist (rockistscientist), Sunday, 4 January 2004 16:47 (twenty-one years ago)

'But know the chances you’re taking, white boy. You’re risking charges of tokenism on the one hand, or a bohemian soulboy fetish on the other. Subtle, veiled. Such things aren’t said aloud. But they will be thought.'

How can people go on knowing that people are probably thinking things about them

― Ferrrrrrg (Ferg), Sunday, 4 January 2004 16:47 (twenty-one years ago)

i have already deleted my Lil Jon mp3s out of guilt

― stevem (blueski), Sunday, 4 January 2004 16:55 (twenty-one years ago)

(You do have to watch out for a few rocolos who might show up and mock you for saying good things about Marc Anthony. ;)

But since he's not one of my most favorite salsa singers, it doesn't mean too much.)

― Rockist Scientist (rockistscientist), Sunday, 4 January 2004 16:57 (twenty-one years ago)

last time around

― gareth (gareth), Sunday, 4 January 2004 17:06 (twenty-one years ago)

Heh, Rockist -- I thought of you, too, when s/he said "Greece."

Here's my thought on the post: Undeniably, people gravitate toward certain kinds of music for reasons that aren't exclusively aesthetic. But does anyone really champion something that they don't genuinely like on some level? I mean, yeah, when I first started reading ILM, I was attracted to the social contrarianism (at least within my peer group) of listening to pop music. But as a listener, it also felt incredibly refreshing: I realized I loved all the cool sounds, the beats, the catchy melodies. And why not? Before I was 14, all I listened to was Top 40 and hip-hop radio; this kind of music has always been in my blood somehow.

And maybe some people do get into a genre of music because it seems like the "cool" thing to do, but once they really explore it, they'll find the specific artists that speak to them aesthetically and then it just turns into simple enjoyment. In the end, if I like both Justin Timberlake and Tortoise, it's not because they increase my hipster cred (even if I initially thought they were "cool") -- it's because they're both melodic and jazzy (in other words, essential aesthetic qualities that have always spoken to me).

― jaymc (jaymc), Sunday, 4 January 2004 17:32 (twenty-one years ago)

what are 'hipster' books?

― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 4 January 2004 17:33 (twenty-one years ago)

that was just a little plug for the super-hip I Love Books!

― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 4 January 2004 17:34 (twenty-one years ago)

(Oh, and if I like Timberlake more than I like Lil' Jon, it's not because I'm afraid of being accused of having a "bohemian soulboy fetish," it's because JT has better tunes.)

― jaymc (jaymc), Sunday, 4 January 2004 17:47 (twenty-one years ago)

Jay-Z and the Eastside Boyz

I wish!

― Colin Beckett (Colin Beckett), Sunday, 4 January 2004 20:26 (twenty-one years ago)

so this person is so heartfelt and anti-putting on masks that they posted their screed anonymously. brilliant!

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 5 January 2004 02:41 (twenty-one years ago)

Well you don't want to raise the ire of the Williamsburg mafia.

― nate detritus (natedetritus), Monday, 5 January 2004 02:54 (twenty-one years ago)

because when you're secure in yourself and/or your opinions their opinions MEAN SO MUCH

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 5 January 2004 02:55 (twenty-one years ago)

watch out: they'll put your eye out with their hair

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 5 January 2004 02:59 (twenty-one years ago)

(WORST JOKE I'VE EVER MADE)

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 5 January 2004 02:59 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh hey, look at you
Don't you look like Siouxsie Sioux

(Thanks to Kish Kash these lyrics can be relevant again.)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 5 January 2004 03:02 (twenty-one years ago)

oh, you've made worse jokes than that, Fiddo.

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 5 January 2004 03:05 (twenty-one years ago)

i was waiting for that.

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 5 January 2004 03:07 (twenty-one years ago)

(not that I can name any offhand)

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 5 January 2004 03:08 (twenty-one years ago)

you were waiting for that OH I AM WOUNDED YOU UBER-HIPSTER VIPER-PIT-DWELLER YOU

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 5 January 2004 03:08 (twenty-one years ago)

Girls girls, you're both pretty!

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 5 January 2004 03:08 (twenty-one years ago)

b-b-b-but now i have to retreat deeper in the murky swamps of obscurantism! bastard!

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 5 January 2004 03:10 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.edmunds.com/media/roadtests/spinaroundtown/01.dodge.viper/02.dodge.viper.f34.500.jpg

― nate detritus (natedetritus), Monday, 5 January 2004 03:11 (twenty-one years ago)

(at least we finally know what the official hipster car is now)

― nate detritus (natedetritus), Monday, 5 January 2004 03:11 (twenty-one years ago)

"I want to get away! I want to driiiive away! Yeeeeah yeeeah yeeeah!" < /Lenny Kravitz>

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 5 January 2004 03:12 (twenty-one years ago)

20 years ago it was a Bitchin' Camaro

― nate detritus (natedetritus), Monday, 5 January 2004 03:13 (twenty-one years ago)

obscurantist!

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 5 January 2004 03:13 (twenty-one years ago)

life is a highway.

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 5 January 2004 03:14 (twenty-one years ago)

Don't touch my car alarm. You break into my car, you will hear "Viper On."

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Monday, 5 January 2004 03:14 (twenty-one years ago)

[kazoo sound]
"Well God said to Abraham kill me a son...."

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 5 January 2004 03:15 (twenty-one years ago)

The way we derail threads affirms my love of life.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Monday, 5 January 2004 03:19 (twenty-one years ago)

What really is the hipster car?
Surely not just any old euro.

― adam michel (adam michel), Monday, 5 January 2004 03:19 (twenty-one years ago)

god said to noah we're gonna build and arky arky

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 5 January 2004 03:20 (twenty-one years ago)

The hipster car of choice would surely be a station wagon. With fake wood paneling.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Monday, 5 January 2004 03:21 (twenty-one years ago)

those are so deck.

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 5 January 2004 03:22 (twenty-one years ago)

you know it sadly took me 15 minutes to get nate's joke up there.

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 5 January 2004 03:27 (twenty-one years ago)

:-(

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 5 January 2004 03:33 (twenty-one years ago)

I was attracted to the social contrarianism (at least within my peer group) of listening to pop music. But as a listener, it also felt incredibly refreshing: I realized I loved all the cool sounds, the beats, the catchy melodies. And why not?

I see how all of these aspects of top 40 pop are attractive, but doesn't the music for which which cool sounds/beats/melodies is the icing on the cake have a special appeal? Doesn't it set itself above the overproduced stuff you hear on pop radio?

― adam michel (adam michel), Monday, 5 January 2004 04:01 (twenty-one years ago)

The point of that post was to ask: does that viewpoint (of mine) qualify me as a hipster?

― adam michel (adam michel), Monday, 5 January 2004 04:01 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm sorry; I still don't understand your question.

― jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 5 January 2004 04:11 (twenty-one years ago)

But I like icing an awful lot.

― jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 5 January 2004 04:12 (twenty-one years ago)

Cake is better. Pal.

― adam michel (adam michel), Monday, 5 January 2004 04:17 (twenty-one years ago)

Actually, to use your metaphor, I'm not sure what cake is, if not "cool sounds/beats/melodies" -- I mean, what else is there?

― jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 5 January 2004 04:20 (twenty-one years ago)

Well I didn't mean it like that. But in the original metaphor, cake is good songwriting, meaningful lyrics, musical uniqueness, poignancy, etc.

― adam michel (adam michel), Monday, 5 January 2004 04:26 (twenty-one years ago)

they had that one good song about the race car. i don't know if it was a hipster race car though.

― scott seward (scott seward), Monday, 5 January 2004 04:28 (twenty-one years ago)

"he's all alone/in a Saab CD"?

― adam michel (adam michel), Monday, 5 January 2004 04:33 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh man I need you guys to be responsible friends so if you catch me using a food metaphor to describe music in 2004 just kill me with a vegematic.

― Darrens8====D (DarrenK), Monday, 5 January 2004 04:50 (twenty-one years ago)

And you know, if you do that for me, 'everything else is just a bonus'.

― Darrens8====D (DarrenK), Monday, 5 January 2004 04:57 (twenty-one years ago)

what is a vegematic? (sorry)

― adam michel (adam michel), Monday, 5 January 2004 05:01 (twenty-one years ago)

It's a vegetable slicer sold via American television commercials.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Monday, 5 January 2004 05:03 (twenty-one years ago)

Here's a page about it on Smithsonian Online.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Monday, 5 January 2004 05:05 (twenty-one years ago)

It's a Jonathon Richman song! That makes it hip.

― Broheems (diamond), Monday, 5 January 2004 05:06 (twenty-one years ago)

btw, this thread is much better.

― Broheems (diamond), Monday, 5 January 2004 05:08 (twenty-one years ago)

I think, anyway. I didn't re-read it or anything, but I remember it being pretty good.

― Broheems (diamond), Monday, 5 January 2004 05:09 (twenty-one years ago)

HIPSTER is the new online acetabulum and femur-ball sharing service for seniors. What the hell are YOU people on about?

― Darrens8====D (DarrenK), Monday, 5 January 2004 05:19 (twenty-one years ago)

three weeks pass...

http://www.viperclub.org/

We're always welcoming new members to our viper enthusiast club, so feel free to join in the fun! Not all of us own vipers but it does'nt hurt to dream!

― Arthur M. Martinez, Friday, 30 January 2004 13:58 (twenty-one years ago)

seven months pass...

It has all the marks of a professional journalist, doesn't it?

― jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 2 September 2004 21:49 (twenty years ago)

eight months pass...

yes, a specific one

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Thursday, 12 May 2005 17:37 (twenty years ago)

well, that's what i was getting at, m.

― jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 12 May 2005 17:38 (twenty years ago)

haha I just thought I'd pedantically answer the question (or pseudo-question) eight months after it was posed. (I was thinking about it yesterday, actually, for reals.)

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Thursday, 12 May 2005 17:39 (twenty years ago)

RAGGETT

― Gear! (can Jung shill it, Mu?) (Gear!), Thursday, 12 May 2005 17:40 (twenty years ago)

What, where?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 12 May 2005 17:48 (twenty years ago)

This reads like Raggett and by that I mean that it is full of hatred.

― d'ngullberry (noisemeltdown), Thursday, 12 May 2005 17:50 (twenty years ago)

wait what?

― Aja. (Gear!), Thursday, 12 May 2005 17:50 (twenty years ago)

I'll just re-post what I wrote on the DeRo thread:

I mean here's a guy who clearly is infuriated that despite his championing of rebellion, the 'real,' etc. he discovers he's considered a conservative laughingstock by others. His kneejerk reaction is to assume that the reason he's not considered hip is that these "oh so clever" people who have chosen Being Hip over Being Honest, and creates a plausible profile of the thought process of this hipster. It's way more thoughtful and challenging than anything else I've read of his.

― miccio (miccio), Thursday, 12 May 2005 17:51 (twenty years ago)

I don't doubt this sort of person exists but this is just a way to paint his opponents with the brush of insincerity, though it seems to me denying the visceral pleasures of catchy pop music isn't exactly being honest!

― Gear! (can Jung shill it, Mu?) (Gear!), Thursday, 12 May 2005 17:54 (twenty years ago)

oh you kylie fan

― jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 12 May 2005 17:56 (twenty years ago)

The idea of "thinkpiece" as insult is pretty funny.

― miccio (miccio), Thursday, 12 May 2005 18:00 (twenty years ago)

Their masks fit tight on their faces

― miccio (miccio), Thursday, 12 May 2005 18:01 (twenty years ago)

I liked it.

― KeefW (kmw), Thursday, 12 May 2005 18:01 (twenty years ago)

The original article that is...

― KeefW (kmw), Thursday, 12 May 2005 18:01 (twenty years ago)

I have one other friend IRL who likes Kylie Minogue but literally keeps the CDs hidden in a shoebox in his closet (ahem)

― Gear! (can Jung shill it, Mu?) (Gear!), Thursday, 12 May 2005 18:01 (twenty years ago)

I think I may still have a shoebox in the closet of my room at my mom's with all my old cassingles in it - "Pop Goes The Weasel," "Sowing The Seeds Of Love," "It Ain't Over Till It's Over," "Rock And A Hard Place," "No Myth" but I might have tossed it.

― miccio (miccio), Thursday, 12 May 2005 18:03 (twenty years ago)

I have a friend who has a post-Dick Marillion cupboard.

― KeefW (kmw), Thursday, 12 May 2005 18:04 (twenty years ago)

my favorite cassingle was "The Hitman" by AB Logic.

― Gear! (can Jung shill it, Mu?) (Gear!), Thursday, 12 May 2005 18:05 (twenty years ago)

I have a drawer at my parents' house filled with Dokken, Savatage, and Paula Abdul tapes.

― Gear! (can Jung shill it, Mu?) (Gear!), Thursday, 12 May 2005 18:05 (twenty years ago)

god its scary how easily I can tie my tastes then to my tastes now: ironic hip-pop? check. bonkers well-intentioned overproduction? check. old school soul rips? check. awkward polito-rock? check. cryptic art-folk over hard drum beats? check.

― miccio (miccio), Thursday, 12 May 2005 18:05 (twenty years ago)

This reads like Raggett and by that I mean that it is full of hatred.

:-( (Regardless, it is not by me.)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 12 May 2005 18:23 (twenty years ago)

Isn't this aimed directly at ILMers? It's about all the hating that goes on here, and from alleged music lovers. I had conceived of a similar post callled "I Love Music, but I hate Music Lovers" (but I was too sensitive to post it here - and face the above).

― Bobby Peru (Bobby Peru), Thursday, 12 May 2005 18:24 (twenty years ago)

If it isn't it probably should be.

― KeefW (kmw), Thursday, 12 May 2005 18:25 (twenty years ago)

Kidding, Ned! ;D

― d'ngullberry (noisemeltdown), Thursday, 12 May 2005 18:28 (twenty years ago)

Somewhere DeRog and Andy Wang are laughing at us!

(although, thanks to Wang for leading me here)

― Gear! (can Jung shill it, Mu?) (Gear!), Thursday, 12 May 2005 18:29 (twenty years ago)

he's asking for the death of all dialogue.

Bingo.

What the hell is the point of this fucking post? The person who wrote it saw some hipsters at the mall and was jealous because he was all alone and he just wants to hang out with them SO FUCK THOSE GUYS, FAKE UPPER MIDDLE CLASS TRUST FUND PHONIES. So? What's the point?

― Dred Furst, Thursday, 12 May 2005 18:35 (twenty years ago)

CHRIS PENN, Miccio?

― A Viking of Some Note (Andrew Thames), Thursday, 12 May 2005 18:43 (twenty years ago)

I dunno. I might be drunk, but I think it's good. Music is a thing where people are constantly manoeuvering, deliberately or otherwise to ensure they are 'ahead' of the game. It gets on my tits. I agree with the poster, I think.

I don't see why jealousy has to be the only reason. It certainly isn't for me; it's just a bit annoying a generally held opinion (at least one that seems to appear organically) is that there has to be some concensus on how one should think and to then constantly change the goalpoasts to prove how on 'ahead' of the game you are. I see this all the time.

In some sense there is perhaps no point in any post like this or any discussion around it, at least from my point of view. The 'coolest', most 'leftfield' thing anyone can manage in my point of view is to have their own brain inside their head, and that's about the size of it. But it's a laff isn't it?

Either way, in my opinion, the poster does describe well a situation that does exist with .

― KeefW (kmw), Thursday, 12 May 2005 18:44 (twenty years ago)

I don't think jealousy has anything to do with it. It's half-digested bullshit, and anything more I could add was already noted way above by Daddino.

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Thursday, 12 May 2005 18:45 (twenty years ago)

CHRIS PENN, Miccio?

MICHAEL Penn!!! And I stand by "No Myth," god drum machine + acoustic guitar is a beautiful thing man. Helps explain my fondness for Sugar Ray.

― miccio (miccio), Thursday, 12 May 2005 18:50 (twenty years ago)

http://www.mervius.com/uploadpremiere/starsky_chris_penn.jpg

what if I was romeo in black jeans?
what if I was heathcliff? It's no myth.
What if she's just looking for...someone to dance with.

― miccio (miccio), Thursday, 12 May 2005 18:51 (twenty years ago)

I have never, in the flesh, met anyone so interested in denigrating another person's music taste as the hypothetical "hipster" in the initial post. On the internet, okay sure, but the social dynamic here is different and such aggressiveness is not limited to the subject of music... but when I'm sitting around at a show talking to folks or discussing things with my friends or even people I've just met, I've never met anyone who was so rude as to sneer or snicker when someone professed a love for something. people might disagree or whatever, but its fairly well understood these things come down to personal taste. anyway, yeah, total strawman/hyper-defensive balonium...

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 12 May 2005 18:54 (twenty years ago)

AH FUCK, MICHAEL! You win this time etc, and yeah that song's pretty Ok as I remember

― A Viking of Some Note (Andrew Thames), Thursday, 12 May 2005 19:03 (twenty years ago)

That sounds very nice. Perhaps you're lucky, Shakey. I've been insulted by jocks about poor coordination, and insulted by hipsters for liking Rush. It's all just fun and games to the people who do the teasing. It smarts a little to the people getting teased. I think this thread, the mere assumption it's about Derogatis, and the other one actually about Derogatis, with all the venom on it, sort of demonstrate the point whoever started this thread made, that he feels "They"’re spoiling for a fight, "for a bloody nose smashed against the glass wall."

― hipsterpod, Thursday, 12 May 2005 19:07 (twenty years ago)

Their masks fit tight on their faces

― miccio (miccio), Thursday, 12 May 2005 19:09 (twenty years ago)

i've been insulted by ketchup-haters for liking ketchup! i got over it

― s1ocki (slutsky), Thursday, 12 May 2005 19:09 (twenty years ago)

I'm over getting tripped on basketball courts, too. I just think the fool has some kind of point. Maybe he's made it in a way that makes people too defensive to consider it. But there does seem to be a lot of competition and insults attached to music geekdom. Maybe that's interesting to consider, maybe it's not.

― hipsterpod, Thursday, 12 May 2005 19:12 (twenty years ago)

maybe somebody who writes a frothing post like that anonymously shouldn't be throwing around phrases like "smarmy and insecure" and "personally and professionally frustrated." I did have to take out "overeducated."

― miccio (miccio), Thursday, 12 May 2005 19:14 (twenty years ago)

[[[I've never met anyone who was so rude as to sneer or snicker when someone professed a love for something]]]

Shakey, I have, but it was in the indie-90's. He actually had the nerve to do it in my apt (he was sneering at my Hip-Hop past). I evetually got around to talking about Van Dyke Parks and Jim O'rourke and he fucking started gushing, as if he hadn't already pissed all over my earlier parade.

He was never invited back.

― PappaWheelie (PappaWheelie), Thursday, 12 May 2005 19:14 (twenty years ago)

shouldn't be throwing around phrases like "smarmy and insecure" and "personally and professionally frustrated."

But it wouldn't have been so much fun without that!

― KeefW (kmw), Thursday, 12 May 2005 19:16 (twenty years ago)

i never said it wasn't fun!

― miccio (miccio), Thursday, 12 May 2005 19:16 (twenty years ago)

I agree with you, miccio. But setting aside his rhetoric for a second, even though he sort of performs what he's complaining about, there is a lot of oneupsmanship in a lot of music conversations. Again, maybe that's not even worth talking about.

― hipsterpod, Thursday, 12 May 2005 19:16 (twenty years ago)

I have, in real life, ridiculed people's musical tastes in pretty much the same way that the original post posits. I do not feel guilty about this because A) at the time I was 16; and B) if you are insecure enough in your musical preferences that someone else can make you cry over them, you need to get a gigantic backbone and stop being so damned sensitive.

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 12 May 2005 19:16 (twenty years ago)

oh it's worth talking about, but there's no reason to give a guy credit for pointing out what he's clearly trying (and failing) to do.

― miccio (miccio), Thursday, 12 May 2005 19:18 (twenty years ago)

i never said it wasn't fun!

Oh yes, sorry, carry on!

― KeefW (kmw), Thursday, 12 May 2005 19:18 (twenty years ago)

(That's a Blackadder quote that probably doesn't make a lot of sense to most... Sorry)

― KeefW (kmw), Thursday, 12 May 2005 19:22 (twenty years ago)

I get the point of the piece, but the way that it seems to hinge on the question "what's your favorite band?" just seems kind of fatally corny. I mean, do people really have "favorite bands" in that sports team supporter sense of the term? I mean, I spend a shocking percentage of my income on music, I listen to it all day long everyday, I am either thinking about it, writing about it, or making it pretty much every day. But I don't have a "favorite band" and don't know all that many people who do. It just seems that the pleasures provided by different recordings are so hyper-specific that to rate and compare them and say that X is .02% "greater" than Y in some kind of quantifiable manner is
A) optional
B) unverifiable
C) silly
D) doomed
E) all of the above

― Drew Daniel (Drew Daniel), Thursday, 12 May 2005 19:23 (twenty years ago)

I mean, do people really have "favorite bands" in that sports team supporter sense of the term?

Er, yeah. Absolutely.

― The Ghost of Dan Perry, Who Is Deeply Obssessed With The Cure And Prince (Dan Pe, Thursday, 12 May 2005 19:25 (twenty years ago)

B) if you are insecure enough in your musical preferences that someone else can make you cry over them, you need to get a gigantic backbone and stop being so damned sensitive.

That's for sure.

I have no favorite bands whatsoever. *thinks about how great the next Walkabouts album must be*

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 12 May 2005 19:26 (twenty years ago)

I'm not so sure about this. Some people are just more sensitive than others; some can overcome this, some cannot. I guess this follows a normal distribution.

I think you do need to be sensitive to people's opinions if you don't want to upset them. Surely you can't just barge under the assumption that they should bloody well learn to deal with it.

― KeefW (kmw), Thursday, 12 May 2005 19:29 (twenty years ago)

That should have read 'barge in'. I blame the drink.

― KeefW (kmw), Thursday, 12 May 2005 19:30 (twenty years ago)

I think you do need to be sensitive to people's opinions if you don't want to upset them. Surely you can't just barge under the assumption that they should bloody well learn to deal with it.

Remind me to tell you the amusing story of "Stormy and the Cure thread."

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 12 May 2005 19:31 (twenty years ago)

Please do... Are you in Scotland any time soon?

― KeefW (kmw), Thursday, 12 May 2005 19:31 (twenty years ago)

KeefW OTM.

― jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 12 May 2005 19:33 (twenty years ago)

About the sensitivity thing, I mean. Ultimately, I'm not gonna go crying because you insulted my favorite band, but let's not excuse dickish behavior, either.

― jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 12 May 2005 19:35 (twenty years ago)

Which is not to say I totally agree with the original post on this thread or anything -- just a stray thought.

― jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 12 May 2005 19:37 (twenty years ago)

PapaWheelie, me too, many people in the 'indie-90s' and beyond. There are a minority of people who behave in this way, I think. Because these people are mouthy, they tend to earn respect from others, which I suppose is what winds up annoying, if you think they are talking shite.

― KeefW (kmw), Thursday, 12 May 2005 19:40 (twenty years ago)

Yes, people should be respectful of each other. People are ruder on the internet than they are in person because they don't fear the beatdown, don't have to look the person in the face. But the last thing this threadstarter is doing is arguing that we should all respect each other.

― miccio (miccio), Thursday, 12 May 2005 19:40 (twenty years ago)

so who is the original poster supposed to be anyway? an ILM poster?

once again, i'm confused.

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Thursday, 12 May 2005 19:40 (twenty years ago)

My inner sixteen-year-old is jumping up and down screaming "PICK YOUR BATTLES!!!!!!"

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 12 May 2005 19:41 (twenty years ago)

I thought the original post was accurate, if a little misguided. To some of the initial responses: the issue isn't about having differing opinions, which of course is great and can lead to fun (or sometimes, let's face it, aggrivating) conversations. The issue is the vibe some people give off about [your favorite artist/genre, or tastes in general] like "been there, done that, I've moved on now and that's beneath me." They aren't looking for discussion about the music so much as trying to demonstrate how hip or smart they are.

Of course, this can happen in any conversation on any topic. Really, the culprit isn't some evil "hipster" strawman; it's just a regular asshole. Put that way, this isn't exactly a new topic worthy of lost sleep or deep consideration. Some people are dicks and we all know this; deal with it, move on.

xpost: KeefW and jaymc OTM

― sleep (sleep), Thursday, 12 May 2005 19:41 (twenty years ago)

My main problem with a certain kind of arrogant eye-rolling is just that it puts up a barrier to any kind of meaningful dialogue.

― jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 12 May 2005 19:42 (twenty years ago)

the "issue" is that jim derogatis misreads his critics in a completely self-serving way.

xpost

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Thursday, 12 May 2005 19:43 (twenty years ago)

Sleep, I agree. Good stuff. Apart from the discussing people who are dicks; I think that's great fun.

― KeefW (kmw), Thursday, 12 May 2005 19:43 (twenty years ago)

You guys do realize that the poster himself is dismissing genuine fans of "the most pop of pop music, the carefully sculpted and styled boybands and protooled airbrushed glossy pinups." Dismissing them evidently doesn't make you a dick.

― miccio (miccio), Thursday, 12 May 2005 19:44 (twenty years ago)

haha, yeah, i see sleep said the same thing as i did.

― jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 12 May 2005 19:45 (twenty years ago)

Miccio, you know me well enough that I'm not talking about DeRo at this point.

― jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 12 May 2005 19:46 (twenty years ago)

I just think its misguided to chide people for reacting negatively to post that is overwhelmingly negative in the first place. There are examples of innocent threadstarters getting lambasted by those who feel they're more intelligent. This isn't one.

― miccio (miccio), Thursday, 12 May 2005 19:47 (twenty years ago)

In praise of ... Seventeen Seconds by The Cure

The best part of this thread is how I'm so mean on it for no reason.

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 12 May 2005 19:47 (twenty years ago)

That's part of what I disagreed with. The other part is that he let himself get wound up over this shit to begin with. The specific line of hipster oneupmanship he traced seemed pretty accruate though, in my experience.

― sleep (sleep), Thursday, 12 May 2005 19:49 (twenty years ago)

Another thing is music tends to attract outcasts and misfits who take refuge from attacks of some sort, if just for being different. Maybe it's weird for fool to feel like he's got to cope with insults with music, too, like, 'Hey, music and music talk is comfort from competition, it's not supposed to be a competition, too.' I mean I guess if so fool shouldn't be a dick himself, but still.

― hipsterpod, Thursday, 12 May 2005 19:51 (twenty years ago)

Really? People are really so concerned with being thought of as cool for their knowledge about music that all they do are come up with phony strategies all the time -- "next I will go obscurantist," "ok now I'll go lowbrow" etc.?

Sounds like BOGUS STRAWMAN to me

x-post

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Thursday, 12 May 2005 19:52 (twenty years ago)

Oh totally, sleep, if anything he's trying to oneup the hipsters!

hipsterpod, this is clearly someone who doesn't hesitate to insult people over music. he does it in his post. if he's shocked to "cope" with insults, then he is a hypocrite.

― miccio (miccio), Thursday, 12 May 2005 19:54 (twenty years ago)

honestly derogatis just sounds really cynical and exhausted, which is a really unfortunate combo in a music critic.

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Thursday, 12 May 2005 19:55 (twenty years ago)

It's probably that he is shocked he has to cope with insults, not that everyone should be.

― miccio (miccio), Thursday, 12 May 2005 19:55 (twenty years ago)

Tim, I don't think there's a suggestion that people move from one position to the other, although I have known people to move between genres rather than positions as described, but there are certainly plenty of people I've met over the years who exhibit one of the traits described.

― KeefW (kmw), Thursday, 12 May 2005 19:57 (twenty years ago)

To be honest, I don't see why this deserves this much attention. And Miccio, Dero is posting negativity in RESPONSE to negativity towards him, and we are responding negatively. Its not like he initiated this cycle (except in the sense that he puts his crappy writing in papers). I don't think anyone here disagrees that his writing is crappy, or that his "essay" at the top of this page is not particularly well thought out and a bit defensive, but regardless, I think Jaymc is OTM when he says its not creating any kind of positive dialogue. Its just a big pile of negativity, a pile-on the uncool kid who "doesn't get it." Which he doesn't, but its beside the point.

― Lethal Dizzle (djdee2005), Thursday, 12 May 2005 20:08 (twenty years ago)

um, Drake his writing is full of derision for fans of music he doesn't enjoy. Poor writing alone hasn't given him the status he holds today.

― miccio (miccio), Thursday, 12 May 2005 20:11 (twenty years ago)

A number of people have pointed out that the things pointed out in this thread don't deserve much attention...

Why is this? I guess I could point out the perhaps obvious here, but I am interested as to why people think this. Is there nothing to think about? The general theme appears to be something along the lines of the fact that it's not positive. Do only positive things deserve attention? Have I missed something?

― KeefW (kmw), Thursday, 12 May 2005 20:12 (twenty years ago)

Miccio, I don't follow how you know he doesn't enjoy the music he writes about, although there have been some hints that you might know who the poster is... Do you? Is this this 'derogatis' guy you mentioned? I don't know who that is... Who is it?

― KeefW (kmw), Thursday, 12 May 2005 20:14 (twenty years ago)

DeRo only pulls the "dialogue" card when someone calls him on his bullshit. And I think "bite me" is a fine response to dialogue from someone as close-minded, hateful and bullheaded.

― miccio (miccio), Thursday, 12 May 2005 20:14 (twenty years ago)

Amst is the one who said he doesn't enjoy the music he writes about, not me.

― miccio (miccio), Thursday, 12 May 2005 20:15 (twenty years ago)

Ah, sorry... It's this thing I misunderstood:

his writing is full of derision for fans of music he doesn't enjoy

― KeefW (kmw), Thursday, 12 May 2005 20:18 (twenty years ago)

I think one of the things that makes ILM interesting (on admittedly rare occasions, heh) is that people do feel compelled to defend their tastes at least to some extent. How boring would this board be if it was just people listing their favorite bands? There are already plenty of boards like that around. So if you're a fan of Flaming Lips, I think you should be glad that liking them is unfashionable on ILM (which premise I question, but whatever), because it gives you a chance to articulate why they're worth listening to. The author of this thread is basically falling back on the Woody-Allen-style "the heart wants what it wants" defense. At least I really like what I like, he is saying, and all you people that like different stuff are just posing. That's not so much a defense of the bands that he likes as a smear on anyone who doesn't like them, as others have pointed out - it's basically just negativity.

― o. nate (onate), Thursday, 12 May 2005 20:22 (twenty years ago)

I like how everyone has taken my second-hand speculation that it's DeRogatis as truth. I mean, I think it probably is him, but still.

― jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 12 May 2005 20:24 (twenty years ago)

Amst is the one who said he doesn't enjoy the music he writes about, not me.

what? i don't understand this sentence. i don't write about music for a living. or did i say that derogatis doesn't like the music he writes about? i don't recall saying that.

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Thursday, 12 May 2005 20:24 (twenty years ago)

Who the fuck is DeRogatis?

That said... G.g.g.reat name nonetheless!

― KeefW (kmw), Thursday, 12 May 2005 20:25 (twenty years ago)

7 Seconds "Walk Together, Rock Together" to thread.

("I don't care if we're into different bands, / no cause for all this hatred" etc.)

I mean, I can relate if someone has "favorite bands" with a plural s, and would consider myself one of those people- but "favorite band" in the singular? as in a single one that sums up one's entire aesthetic committments? That does seem weird to me. Am I being an evil hipster jerk if I don't relate to this aesthetic monogamy?

― Drew Daniel (Drew Daniel), Thursday, 12 May 2005 20:25 (twenty years ago)

My favourite band in 1975 were the Wombles.

― KeefW (kmw), Thursday, 12 May 2005 20:27 (twenty years ago)

DeRogatis is a music critic. I can't remember ever knowingly reading anything he's written but apparently a lot of people would like to see his writings drowned like ugly puppies.

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 12 May 2005 20:27 (twenty years ago)

I was 2 though; they might be the only band I'd heard. Other than Ike & Tina Turner, who apparently I 'danced' to.

― KeefW (kmw), Thursday, 12 May 2005 20:28 (twenty years ago)

Dan, thanks.

― KeefW (kmw), Thursday, 12 May 2005 20:28 (twenty years ago)

Miccio, I can't say I disagree with anything you're saying. I guess I just don't see all this vitriol as even being worth our time.

― Lethal Dizzle (djdee2005), Thursday, 12 May 2005 20:30 (twenty years ago)

And Miccio, Dero is posting negativity in RESPONSE to negativity towards him, and we are responding negatively. Its not like he initiated this cycle

Hmm...this sounds uncomfortably close to your 'fire with fire?' explanation on the Ying Yang Twins thread yesterday.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 12 May 2005 20:32 (twenty years ago)

Who the fuck is DeRogatis?

I kiss you.

― ()ops (()()ps), Thursday, 12 May 2005 20:32 (twenty years ago)

sorry, amst. I assumed Keef was referring to your "cynical and exhausted" line.

and drake, this is pretty rote "vitriol" on my part, merely restating annoyances and cracking a few jokes.

― miccio (miccio), Thursday, 12 May 2005 20:34 (twenty years ago)

Oh come now Ned, that was tongue in cheek!

― Lethal Dizzle (djdee2005), Thursday, 12 May 2005 20:34 (twenty years ago)

Again, pick your battles. And your tone. ;-)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 12 May 2005 20:34 (twenty years ago)

I don't have anything against DeRogatis. I'm currently reading "Let it Blurt" actually - and though I wouldn't necessarily nominate it as the pinnacle of the biographer's art - I think it's pretty well-researched and manages to tell an interesting tale.

― o. nate (onate), Thursday, 12 May 2005 20:35 (twenty years ago)

Sorry Miccio, I've forgotten what I was referring to!

― KeefW (kmw), Thursday, 12 May 2005 20:35 (twenty years ago)

Incidentally, what's DeRogatis' first name? Things always seem much more friendly when you use someone's first name; like 'Jimi'.

― KeefW (kmw), Thursday, 12 May 2005 20:37 (twenty years ago)

Heh, it is actually Jim, KeefW

― sleep (sleep), Thursday, 12 May 2005 20:37 (twenty years ago)

You could probably call him Jimi if you wanted though

― sleep (sleep), Thursday, 12 May 2005 20:38 (twenty years ago)

I'm with Drew, the "favorite band" angle seems peculiarly juvenile. I guess I talked like that when I was in high school (before I really understood just how many goddamn great bands there are out there and stopped thinking of music listening as a coolness competition)

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 12 May 2005 20:38 (twenty years ago)

Sleep.. Cheers!

― KeefW (kmw), Thursday, 12 May 2005 20:39 (twenty years ago)

For me it was more of an adolescent phase in music listening too. But there's nothing wrong with being a perpetual adolescent, I guess.

xpost

― o. nate (onate), Thursday, 12 May 2005 20:41 (twenty years ago)

That said, when people ask me if I have a favourite band I usually come up with an answer. I don't feel like a teenager doing it. It's normally a lot of bollocks, but the person asking the question is rarely asking for a scientific assertion as to my favourite band.

― KeefW (kmw), Thursday, 12 May 2005 20:42 (twenty years ago)

when people ask me for my favorite band it's usually not actually a "band"

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Thursday, 12 May 2005 20:43 (twenty years ago)

(I don't normally say the Wombles though)

― KeefW (kmw), Thursday, 12 May 2005 20:43 (twenty years ago)

Ned is watching, Dizzle! Look sharp!

― ()ops (()()ps), Thursday, 12 May 2005 20:44 (twenty years ago)

Fix up have you ever had a dream blah blah etc.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 12 May 2005 20:46 (twenty years ago)

someone asks me what my favorite band is (or if I ask someone that question) I don't expect or give a literal answer, it's just a jump-off point...

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 12 May 2005 20:47 (twenty years ago)

I have the same difficulty when people ask me what kind of music I like. I get that one more frequently than the favorite band question.

― o. nate (onate), Thursday, 12 May 2005 20:48 (twenty years ago)

my favorite band is burt bacharach

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Thursday, 12 May 2005 20:48 (twenty years ago)

O.Nate, yeah me too, and I normally duck the question. I might start taking a big photo of my music collection about with me.

― KeefW (kmw), Thursday, 12 May 2005 20:50 (twenty years ago)

Maybe I should start replying, "A better question would be what kind of music don't I like."

― o. nate (onate), Thursday, 12 May 2005 20:52 (twenty years ago)

ps- my favorite band is the Roland Groovebox.

― o. nate (onate), Thursday, 12 May 2005 20:53 (twenty years ago)

Haha. They sound like they're probably great.

― KeefW (kmw), Thursday, 12 May 2005 20:54 (twenty years ago)

If someone asked you lot what your favourite band was, would you not make an attempt to answer? I know I avoid the 'what music do you like' questions, but there are hundreds if not thousands of things I like, as for favourites, it probably is in the ten or so range.

Would you not make an attempt?

― KeefW (kmw), Thursday, 12 May 2005 21:05 (twenty years ago)

I'd probably just name the first band that came to mind that occupies a sizeable space in my record collection (which could be alternately Funkadelic, Spacemen 3, the Beach Boys, Willie Nelson, Sun Ra, Prince, Wu-Tang, Sparks, Royal Trux, or any number of other people...)

uh oh, I think I just "let slip my heart".

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 12 May 2005 21:08 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, I'm probably the same, or the band that I spent the longest liking or something like that. Sometimes I get a bit twatty and just say that last thing I heard on the radio that I liked.

― KeefW (kmw), Thursday, 12 May 2005 21:12 (twenty years ago)

I actually thought the original poster was...well, I won't say who, lest I offend, but if it's DeRo, that's awfully AWFULLY funny, because anyone could easily reframe Kill Your Idols as much the same convolutionary baloney the poster rails against (except for the "well-tuned phrase" bit -- OH YOU WISH):

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Thursday, 12 May 2005 21:12 (twenty years ago)

Answering this question always seems to involve a forgetting of the person you are when you are in mood X and an overestimation of the person you are when you are in mood Y. Typically I would say . . . .

"I like Nurse With Wound and Tod Dockstader"

but that ignores the fact that I spend heaps of time listening to Patty Waters and Cat Power and Nico, but then that doesn't work with all the time spent listening to Miles Davis, but then what about the hours of listening to Donovan and Harper's Bizarre and The Free Design, but then that isn't quite adequate to the person who loves Black Sabbath and Neurosis and Sleep, but then what about all the time headnodding to Team Doyobi and Rhythm & Sound and Herbert, but then etc. etc. etc. I just don't feel summed up by any one artist- because the *kind* of pleasure that Nurse With Wound gives and the *kind* of pleasure that Francoise Hardy gives aren't the same, there doesn't seem to be any point in measuring one against the other and declaring a victor. It's complicated.

― Drew Daniel (Drew Daniel), Thursday, 12 May 2005 21:13 (twenty years ago)

Can I also ask if any of you actually care what this DeRogatis guy thinks? The mystery to me is why people get interested in certain people's views because they are in print? Or is there more to it than this?

I know it makes for a talking point, but people get in print for so many rubbish reasons that aren't to do with the strength of their writing, are these people worth getting keyed up about?

― KeefW (kmw), Thursday, 12 May 2005 21:16 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, but Drew, wouldn't you just answer the question, I don't know, by saying Matmos or something, without all the qualifiers, just to not be difficult? Sure it's somewhat adolescent to pick a favorite band out of a hat, but aren't we all somewhat adolescent to be devoting so much of our time to music to begin with? I don't mean to be argumentative. I'm just wondering if you really go through that rigmarole if someone asks you casually, "Hey, what's your favorite band?"

― hipsterpod, Thursday, 12 May 2005 21:19 (twenty years ago)

Keef it's a journalist/critic thing. I don't give two fucks about DeRo, and am not even aware of his existence outside of ILM.

x-post

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 12 May 2005 21:19 (twenty years ago)

Oh OK.

Thanks; see I miss this stuff. I have no connection with the critics things, other than friends who do it.

― KeefW (kmw), Thursday, 12 May 2005 21:22 (twenty years ago)

well y'know, there are a lot of writers here, and they get all wound up about writing quality (or lack thereof) in major publications. (see also: every Pitchfork thread ever)

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 12 May 2005 21:23 (twenty years ago)

Yes, I have noticed this. It sometimes makes it difficult to join in, but it is understandable.

― KeefW (kmw), Thursday, 12 May 2005 21:25 (twenty years ago)

Keef, I even read one of his books--Kaleidoscope Eyes--and I don't care much what he thinks. Maybe if I were a rock critic I'd be more interested, for professional reasons and whatnot. And from what I gather, in Chicago he's sort of the Roger Ebert to Greg Kot's Gene Siskel; maybe like with At the Movies the whole thumbs-up/thumbs-down routine on their radio show compels Chicago people to approve or disapprove of their recommendations, their disses, and just the two of them in genreal. Though I guess no one slams Kot around here. I wonder how much better he'd do than DeRogatis in a taking sides.

― hipsterpod, Thursday, 12 May 2005 21:26 (twenty years ago)

Hipsterpod, the trouble is I'm in Edinburgh and can't tell my Kot from Ebert from Siskel either! Thanks for trying to help out though!

To be honest, even here, I haven't read NME for 5 years so don't know anyone other than a friend who's involved there. Most of the critics I know now are guys who do post to ILX from time to time.

― KeefW (kmw), Thursday, 12 May 2005 21:29 (twenty years ago)

Maybe the actual author was Billy Corgan.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 12 May 2005 21:30 (twenty years ago)

I like Kot! I mean, he's a perfectly workmanlike writer -- very daily newspaper -- but he's much more open-minded than JD is.

― jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 12 May 2005 21:31 (twenty years ago)

I think that's the deal w/Kot not getting talked about--he doesn't put himself out there to the degree that DeRo does.

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Thursday, 12 May 2005 21:33 (twenty years ago)

I can't recall, at least recently, having read any rockist sentiments from Kot.

― Lethal Dizzle (djdee2005), Thursday, 12 May 2005 21:47 (twenty years ago)

above whatever DeRo has to say, I mean. he's a more visible target because of the books, the high-profile RS firing, et al. (KeefW: DeRogatis was let go from Rolling Stone for a negative review of a Hootie and the Blowfish album, and then saying something unflattering about his boss to the New York Observer in its aftermath.)

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Thursday, 12 May 2005 21:48 (twenty years ago)

Matos, thanks. That sounds like a positive point, surely. I understand I don't know the full story.

― KeefW (kmw), Thursday, 12 May 2005 21:51 (twenty years ago)

no problem

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Thursday, 12 May 2005 21:54 (twenty years ago)

I think the story about DeRo and RS is that Jann Wenner wouldn't run his negative review of the Hootie album and, for that reason, he badmouthed Wenner to the Observer. That's why he was fired.

God, I can't believe I know that much about him.

― righteousmaelstrom (righteousmaelstrom), Thursday, 12 May 2005 22:01 (twenty years ago)

right, like I said.

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Thursday, 12 May 2005 22:17 (twenty years ago)

in Chicago he's sort of the Roger Ebert to Greg Kot's Gene Siskel

Only difference being Ebert doesn't come across as an elitist ranting 24/7 against "mainstream Hollywood" and the "idiots" who "lap it up".

― Stupornaut (natepatrin), Thursday, 12 May 2005 22:21 (twenty years ago)

"favorite band" is just a variation on "best friend."

― miccio (miccio), Thursday, 12 May 2005 22:40 (twenty years ago)

Just expounding that's all, Matos. Your version is indeed correct.

xpost

― righteousmaelstrom (righteousmaelstrom), Thursday, 12 May 2005 22:43 (twenty years ago)

(haha, I've never known how to answer the "best friend" question either - seems cruel and wrong to rank your friends)

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 12 May 2005 22:45 (twenty years ago)

that's why no one asks you to rank all your friends. "best friend" is merely a casual sign of strong platonic affection, not necessarily a binding pact of lifelong devotion.

― miccio (miccio), Thursday, 12 May 2005 22:49 (twenty years ago)

Likewise with "favorite bands"

― miccio (miccio), Thursday, 12 May 2005 22:50 (twenty years ago)

http://www.viperclub.org/
We're always welcoming new members to our viper enthusiast club, so feel free to join in the fun! Not all of us own vipers but it does'nt hurt to dream!

-- Arthur M. Martinez (amvipfa...), January 30th, 2004 1:58 PM. (link) (admin) (userip)

This is the most eloquent response to "DeRo": if people can't see the enthusiasm, if not the viper enthusiasm, on ILM then they're deluding themselves.

― Tom (Groke), Friday, 13 May 2005 09:54 (twenty years ago)

five years pass...

Haha

This thread is still hilarious

― admrl, Friday, 4 June 2010 01:03 (fifteen years ago)

The title!

― lpz, Friday, 4 June 2010 01:14 (fifteen years ago)

http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/1115/tmee.jpg

― ksh, Friday, 4 June 2010 01:34 (fifteen years ago)

one year passes...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAHw5IxaruY

― Acute puppy syndrome (admrl), Wednesday, 16 May 2012 03:06 (thirteen years ago)

Yet throw up something more beloved, more sainted and canonized – Kraftwerk, let’s say, or Erik Satie or Sun Ra – elevate it to godhead and you will find someone ready to play the trump card of contrarianism. There is always someone prepared to melt the sacred cows down to bullion with the well-tuned phrase.

Some attract more contrarianism than others, eg The Beatles, probably the #1 contrarian target that I can think of right now. But I would think contrarians would be most provoked by a combination of perceived preciousness or pretentiousness, 'centrality' in the canon, and mainstream popularity.

So are there canonized bands that don't provoke contrarians? I've never heard, for example, anyone seriously attempt to be contrarian about Ozzy-era Black Sabbath.

― America's Mobile, Wednesday, 16 May 2012 19:14 (thirteen years ago)

can the hardened hipster really plausibly tear down the likes of kraftwerk, satie or ra? I'D LIKE TO SEE IT.

― Merdeyeux, Wednesday, 16 May 2012 19:22 (thirteen years ago)

Googling 'i hate erik satie' I came across this from 2009:

A final thought: I would like to call a moratorium on anyone between the ages of 18 and 34 yammering on about Erik Satie. We know: you just discovered him, you love him, Parisian Bohemian Dadaist, etc. I hope they play Gymnopédie No.1 at your funeral. Did this just get added to Concordia's FFAR 250 curriculum recently? On an Animal Collective mix-tape I missed? I still claim he invented Muzak.

I remember hearing a lot more of this attitude in the 90s when there was a sudden surge of interest in Satie, probably due to inclusion in some movie soundtrack.

― America's Mobile, Wednesday, 16 May 2012 19:34 (thirteen years ago)

kraftwerk were a bad band with a lame gimmick. mostly.
satie is hollow drivel.
sun ra made more bad records than good ones.

― one dis leads to another (ian), Wednesday, 16 May 2012 20:10 (thirteen years ago)

actually i'm not sure i believe that last one. most of the sun ra records i've heard are quite good.

― one dis leads to another (ian), Wednesday, 16 May 2012 20:11 (thirteen years ago)

the last one is the only one I completely agree with

― this guy's a gangsta? his real name's mittens. (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 16 May 2012 20:11 (thirteen years ago)

he made a lot of mediocre records, idk about bad. he certainly made many more good records than kraftwerk did.

― one dis leads to another (ian), Wednesday, 16 May 2012 20:12 (thirteen years ago)

http://www.tutankhamunshop.co.uk/acatalog/ra-egyptian-sun-big.jpg

bring it, hipsters

― heated debate over derpy hooves (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Wednesday, 16 May 2012 20:13 (thirteen years ago)

http://www.tutankhamunshop.co.uk/acatalog/ra-egyptian-sun-big.jpg

― heated debate over derpy hooves (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Wednesday, 16 May 2012 20:13 (thirteen years ago)

Black Sabbath were just a bunch of stoners who discovered the fuzz pedal and the pentatonic scale and squeezed every last drop out of it.

Actually, not sure why that's a bad thing.

― this guy's a gangsta? his real name's mittens. (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 16 May 2012 20:13 (thirteen years ago)

I could probably come up with a line for Lou Reed. I really, really dislike his solo stuff, including transformer.

― this guy's a gangsta? his real name's mittens. (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 16 May 2012 20:16 (thirteen years ago)

hating on things is way more fun than talking about how much you like things, cuz when you like something you're just being earnest and there's nothing funny about saying "hey man, this is a great record!" it's much funnier to talk about things that you don't like.

― one dis leads to another (ian), Wednesday, 16 May 2012 20:17 (thirteen years ago)

like, i don't like the kinks outside of a few songs. they're no troggs, that's for sure.

― one dis leads to another (ian), Wednesday, 16 May 2012 20:18 (thirteen years ago)

the first time i heard gymnopedie was indeed at the end of my dinner w andre

― good men like my father, or president truman (difficult listening hour), Wednesday, 16 May 2012 20:19 (thirteen years ago)

I also do not like the kinks outside of their big hits. I find Village Green unlistenable.

― this guy's a gangsta? his real name's mittens. (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 16 May 2012 20:19 (thirteen years ago)

Also, no good music has ever come from the continent of Africa -- all these afro-punk-funk-rock compilers are kidding themselves.*

*j/k

― this guy's a gangsta? his real name's mittens. (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 16 May 2012 20:20 (thirteen years ago)

contrarianism /= hipsterism. the satie diss scans hipsterish because of the pretense of worldliness and expertise that it assumes in order to more effectively sneer at arrivistes who heard of satie through a movie or some such. the contemptuous sarcasm of "i hope they play gymnopédie no 1 at your funeral". it's an attack not on the music, but on a certain type of listener.

― The term or title antichrist, in Christian theology, refers to (contenderizer), Wednesday, 16 May 2012 20:26 (thirteen years ago)

Chain and the Gang track is so great. love that whole album. Ian is funny!

― Roger Barfing (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 16 May 2012 20:28 (thirteen years ago)

contrarianism /= hipsterism. the satie diss scans hipsterish because of the pretense of worldliness and expertise

True, but he also writes 'I still claim he invented Muzak,' which reads like an attack on the music.

― America's Mobile, Wednesday, 16 May 2012 21:34 (thirteen years ago)

I didn't know about Chain and the Gang until now. Got inspired to revisit Make-Up and NOU as a result.

― this guy's a gangsta? his real name's mittens. (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 16 May 2012 21:40 (thirteen years ago)

i think the attack on the music is where the hipsterism falls down, cuz that's a pretty tired thing to say about satie. ian is making a good go of it, but it still seems a bit challopy rather than the (illusion of) sincere takedown demanded.

― Merdeyeux, Wednesday, 16 May 2012 21:45 (thirteen years ago)

so is "the pit of vipers" hipsters or ilx?

― sarahell, Wednesday, 16 May 2012 21:50 (thirteen years ago)

accusing someone of contrarianism = "instead of accepting your statement and arguing against it I'm just going to pretend you don't even believe it yourself which is pretty much just an asshole move that will make the argument last longer and get progressively more meaningless"

― some dude, Tuesday, 7 October 2008 18:15 (3 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

quoted for truth

― Vermicious Knid A (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 16 May 2012 22:05 (thirteen years ago)

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