The, erm "official" Kanye "College Dropout" thread

Funny thing is, this is an album for people who are have long been deeply into hip hop, and can't buy into the whole Ying Yang/Banner bullshit.

If you listen to hip hop radio (for me, Hot 97 in NYC), you'd know how badly it needs something like this.

But anyway, there's an inevitable ILM backlash brewing (...people love something for 4 weeks, then turn on it once it's officially released).

Jazzy Phizzle is only on one track on the Twista CD though, caveat emptor, there are TWO Kanye West tracks. That's okay for me because I like Kanye.

i think banner has a lot more to say than kanye and his winking "ain't talkin bout coke and bird/more like spoken word," or however that line goes, shit. all that shit about buying a benz ironically or whatever, fuck that shit. he has nothing to say and he says it's in the cutest, most annoying way possible over his easy listening soul samples and shitty drums.

Also, the beats are fucking hott, ie. "Spaceship," "Breathe In Breathe Out," "Workout Plan," etc. and not just hott but actually sometimes really moving too...I don't think there's anyway that anyone could listen to something as powerful as "Jesus Walks" and think "tasteful regression."

sub-lloyd banks punchlines

Explain, please.

*) the one with Busta and the one with Scarface

That's what i was trying to express:the way that many ILM people are so aware of being seen as indie hip hop/indie rock/indie-anything tasteful and intelligent that they'll push all the things that actually aren't memorable or lyrically interesting. Sure, anyone can use the comeback that it's what they actually like, but sometimes people are a little obvious or transparent...

hence, outkast, mos, kanye, = for people who are "new" to hip hop.

so stupid...it feels dumb having to write it, but i've listened to hip hop for 15 years, have maybe 500 hip hop albums, and this is fresh. crunk is not.

it's the same reason i'm inherently distrustful of people who like pop-country, even though there is quite a lot of very good pop-country, this anti-alt.country movement just reeks of bullshit faux-populism to me.

lyrically and sonically, it's all tasteful regression, which is fine but "this is fresh. crunk is not." isn't really, like, true or anything.

let me count thee ways it's not:

It sounds nothing like "Supa Dupa..." Kanye does not chop up 4/4 loops. Timba does. The beats are lush, not minimal. To add "soul samples"...well, given that Timba uses keyboard sounds, aren't we talking two different producers????
A slow rapper doesn't mean lobotomized. Rakim flows slow.
Nas has no sense of humor. Kanye does.
Nas talks street. Kanye does not.

(x-post)

Doom as Viktor Vaughn
Big Gipp LP
Consequence bootleg
Jean Grae
Chops debut LP
New Aesop Rock
New Jeru the Damaja LP
Cee Lo single

and the beats don't sound like 92, just cos theres some soul samples. there's a rhythmic flow, a kind of "bubbling" effect (not the timbaland stutter), that works really well on tracks like slow jamz.

but, uh-oh, i'm veering towards defending something on the basis of "sophistication"

the prosecution rests, your honor

smugness doesn't become you...knowing what you're talking about would be a start...

much like most hip hop albums, the single is not representative...

anyway, the defense rests.

but back to the album: word is it'll knock twista off no. 1 next week, which is a slightly incestuous business...

Ooooooh you let him call you Arsenio!!!

I just heard "Workout Plan" on the radio, he definitely polished up the version that was on the first leaked version of the album, sounds much better. great example of what I like about Kanye as a rapper: the goofy shit that noone else would think to dedicate a whole song to.

Compare it to a Tribe Called Quest Album and it sucks.

Still...synths, samples, what's the diff? Electronic is electronic.

How 'bout that Henson guy? He was damn funny I've always thought.

Well, I COPPED the disc...and most of the criticism I can understand. But...I'm gonna have to echo Paulhw's sentiment. Even though I do think it's sorta boring and tame. It's still a very solid album. Not trying to be an apologist, but it is what it is. Also, I think the Missy and Nas comparisons are quite misguided. What's the point?
PS- "Slow Jamz" is great, and that's the end of it, so shut the hell up!

(I really like this record so far but I am drunk on wine and was making basmati rice at the time so I can't pull my thoughts together. It's a concept album innit, and that bear suit! holy shit)
-- Begs2Differ (whothehel...)

Bwahaha. That bear suit is THE shizznit.

I just put on the album for the first time. so far, I'm pretty happy with the new stuff. the glut of skits is definitely a bummer, though (especially since some of his most enjoyable songs, i.e. "New Workout Plan" and "Slow Jamz" kind of come off like overgrown skits anyway). one of the things that I've always loved about Roc-a-fella albums is the almost complete lack of skits. and what the hell is Deray doing on the intro? a Bernie Mac impression?

<>

well said. I've always liked how he has a weird combination of arrogance and self-deprecation going on.

-- Josh Love (heaveninrowboat...), February 9th, 2004.

Faux populism? On ILM? Who'd a thunk it?!

Also, how is either crunk or kanye fresh? Am I retarded or isn't what crunk is doing now ONYX did 10 years ago?

Uhhhh...you've never heard Onyx and you think they're a "new york rap footnote" and then want to talk shit about hip hop? B-please.

1st off - "Slam" by Onyx is a b-boy classic. As is their entire debut.

2nd - I love David Banner, love Lil Jon. I love the crunk shit. Seriously. And I also love this new Kanye West album.

And whats with the dude who said "compare it to a tribe album"? Compare any crunk album to a Tribe album and it sucks too. Compare 99.9% of albums to a Tribe album and they suck. I'm not sure I get your point.

This album doesn't sound very much like anything that's come before it, other than the sampling sources that it utilizes. i think the drums are expertly done as well - more artists need to learn drum programming from Kanye.

I don't get all the accusations of his music being "lite" either...Since when is hip hop all hard-core thuggery? Do you not enjoy Digable Planets, Tribe, De La, Jungle Brothers, Gang Starr? If not, HOW ARE YOU A HIP HOP FAN?!

And how on any planet does Kanye sound ANYTHING like the terrible Arrested Development?! I don't see a comparison in ANY way.

I'm starting to feel a bit disappointed with the 'new' songs on the album. I can think of at least 2 or 3 Kanye/Consequence collabs that I'd rather hear on the album than "Spaceship".

I meant to say Lil Jon obv.

i guess this is meant to be a stunning, argument-winnining rhetorical question here, but aside from rnb rap and party rap (neither of which sound anywhere near as 'lite' as digable planets) the answer is obv sometime around 95 or 96!! and 'how can you be a hiphop fan' while not enjoying gangstarr and jungle brothers, why not try looking at 97% of hiphop fans in the world???

uhhh...Missy Elliot, Outkast, Black Star, Def Jux, etc....? No thuggery there.

And uh I know you guys tend to be anti-canonization but if you use it as a measure of how much respect hip hop artists are given in the "hip-hop community", I'd say a huge percentage of people respect Gang Starr - particularly DJ Premier.

Its bullshit to say 97% of hip hop fans enjoy listening to "thuggery" exclusively.

I also take offense (on digable's part) for you maintaining that they are "lite." Have you actually heard their music beyond "Cool Like That"? Cuz their second album is fucking amazing, and far from "lite".

xpost w b2d

and yeah and that's why I like the Salt Shaker video

Oh I'm sorry I didn't realize that a huge underground following that isn't quite enough to break them onto MTV doesn't constitute a "following." I mean seriously, Loon had a lot of advantages as far as exposure that Def Jux doesnt. And I'm fairly confident Aesop sold more than Loon, actually. Def Jux puts up huge numbers for an independent.

'but you see, of course all rappers record sci fi concept albums, havent you ever heard of def jux?? kool keith??'

What?

And if you include "party rap," how is Kanye not a part of that? Slow Jamz isn't a party rap track? How about you explain Kanye having 3 top selling singles (which are ALL popular with hip hop fans btw, its not just a crossover-Lauren Hill-Arrested Development fanbase buying it).

(nb: i am not bothered either way by slow jamz. my mom likes it.)

btw Rubber Band Man is fucking awesome.

both hip-hop stations played "hey ya" too. one sandwiched inbetween g-unit and ying yang.

That video is awesome too.

Actually, I like the other Banner song on that album, the hard-rock psychedelic shit with talking pelicans and apocalyptic wildness.

btw you like crunk, check out this weak-ass review from Pfork:

Usher [ft. Lil Jon & Ludacris]: "Yeah"
In which Usher conclusively proves that Southern hip-hop trope crunk is the new muscle shirt of music, donned by those seeking a quick, easy sheen of hard-edge testosterone. See Usher: well-dressed, incredible dancer, impressive vocal range... worried about possibly effeminate image. Call in Lil' Jon, who carries rap radio's hottest sound in his goblet, and is more than happy to contribute the same siren-blare beat he's strip-mined over the last year. At least he probably brought one of his patented, immediately head-stuck shout-along choruses? Let's see: "Y-Yeah Y-YEAH. YEAH YEAH. Yay-uhh." Um, no. Not even Ludacris, on a right awful guest-spot streak (hear also Kanye West's "Breathe In Breathe Out") can bring the track charisma, only entertaining by somehow pronouncing Usher as "Urrsherr". Based on the evidence of this painfully unsexy club track, Usher best stick to dance-offs with Timberlake if he's looking to show off a new harder edge. [Rob Mitchum; February 11th, 2004]
1 1/2 stars.

Ack, I did a double-take when I heard that on the radio a while back, I just assumed it was some fucked up freestyle or something

hating fun?

anyway, carry on...

anyway, carry on...

I'm not sure "what matters" either, but seriously, this album is a lotta fun - "The New Workout Plan."

Anyway, the record is (so far) better than I expected, since ILM soured my expectations a bit.

Rockism alert.

So, I take it back. He should've used a tuba.

"Get em high like noon or the moon or a room filled with smoke
A hype filled with dope, y'all assumed I was doomed, outta tune
But I still feel the notes, from Real Nigga Quotes
Real rappers is hard to find, like a remote
Control, rap is out of"

I totally missed his offbeat battle flow from the One Day It'll All Make Sense days.

DJ Dee, I'm willing to say that Kanye has the worst drum programming in history of sampled music. In the technical sense, they are barely drums, it's like bass stabs and then he hits the same pan for his snare and no one pays attention because his sample work is so tight (and because the drums are mixed too low for anyone to ever hear). The only song with drums that I would say are right good would be 'Jesus Walks'.

Maybe Freeway will do Just a Closer Walk With Thee on his next joint.

(x-post)

It'll have to be straight up SC shit for it to beat this tho.

Haha of course once I actually buy the real album...

Peace or whatever gets you in the night.
Or just in case you wanna hold it against me as a racist (asumming any of you is of pure blood) I am part Spanish, part Indian, part English, and part Black...so what does that make me...quarters of a man?

I don't think "new workout plan" is mysogynistic at all, but thats me.
Its also one of the LAST songs I'd skip...the beat is terrific, and I love the use of the vocoder. We're playing it at our house party this weekend here at school...

As for Sinor: Whatever race you are, it sounds like you like to talk lots of bullshit. I mean seriously, are the academic pretentions of that post neccessary? Esp. when you don't check your sources. Hip hop initially originated as PARTY MUSIC, not any sort of political anti-capitalistic conceit that liberals (funny how you fashion $$$$ as one!) would like it to be. And I'm a "liberal" by the usual political compass! Also, seeing Scarface as a "pawn of white capitalism" shows very little knowledge of the man's work.

DeRay. And he doesn't look very white to me...

"My job is to break down the barriers and show music is just music. On one hand, I've got a knowledge of my heritage; I got a pretty good background, I've been to school. But on the other hand, I like strippers. So do I not talk about strippers because I'm educated? Do I not talk about education because I like strippers? Nobody can pigeonhole me and determine what I talk about."

Hmmm, interesting.

I mean seriously, are the academic pretentions of that post neccessary? Esp. when you don't check your sources.
-- djdee2005 (lis...), February 13th, 2004.

Haha. Attack of the grad school legion!

Hey, Jordan, who you voting for in the primary?

You're right.

are the academic pretentions of that post neccessary? Esp. when you don't check your sources.

Pardon?

I love that Miri Ben-Ari plays violin on like 1/3rd of the album

Especially so on The New Workout Plan. Who is she? I once saw Roots Manuva perform with two violinists and a cellist and that worked exceptionally well. I've since wondered why hiphoppers don't collaborate with string sections more often...

I haven't been following things as closely as I should, Matt, but I'll probably roll with it and go for Kerry.

(so what's your favorite place?)

Especially so on The New Workout Plan. Who is she? I once saw Roots Manuva perform with two violinists and a cellist and that worked exceptionally well. I've since wondered why hiphoppers don't collaborate with string sections more often... "

http://www.miriben-ari.com
she grew up in Israel, and after coming to the U.S. and appearing on 106&Park a couple years ago, improvising violin over hip hop instrumentals, she started getting calls from a lot of rappers and producers. I am so ready for someone to bring a li'l klezmer into hip hop.

plus the insane drum break and Ziggy Elman's trumpet solo on Benny Goodman's "Bei Mir Bist du Schoen" from the 1938 Carnegie Hall concert, that's more hip-hop than John Mayer!

(I've got a couple gigs coming up in a few months at Magnus with my nu-klezmer band!)

He's easy to follow, is why I think he's popular and the punchlines are sorta dorky like I can listen to this in the background and still follow it.

There's this cool laid-back attitude, like he's half-playin' and he knows it, the same as his mixtapes that there's a goof to the whole thing, a nice sharp cynicism about everything and i heart how his voice is all wobbly and his flow is like he just rips jay's catchiest meters -- tho when he tries to switch it up like "breathe in breathe out" it starts to drag -- its like he's got all the signifiers in place, but he's leaving the space open for someone with more skillz but a different ethic -- like remember when paul simon sang the fake-words for "yesterday" and they were like "scrambled eggs -- oh baby you got lovely legs" and you wish it STAYED like that? that's how the whole album is.

Makes a total case for Wanderland style afro-no-futurism being the normative mode for producers. Kodwo on N*E*R*D to thread!

d.k. check for example from self-conscious (All Falls Down):

"But the people highest up got the lowest self esteem
The prettiest people do the ugliest things
For the road to riches and diamond rings
We shine because they hate us, floss cause they degrade us
We trying to buy back our 40 acres
And for that paper, look how low we a'stoop
Even if you in a Benz, you still a nigga in a coupe

I say fuck the police, thats how I treat em
We buy our way out of jail, but we can't buy freedom
We'll buy a lot of clothes when we don't really need em
Things we buy to cover up what's inside
Cause they make us hate ourself and love they wealth
That's why shortys hollering "where the ballas' at?"
Drug dealer buy Jordans, crackhead buy crack
And a white man get paid off of all of that
But I ain't even gon act holier than thou
Cause fuck it, I went to Jacob with 25 thou
Before I had a house and I'd do it again"

or from "we don't care":
"The second verse is for my dogs working 9 to 5
That still hustle cause a nigga can't shine off $6.55
And everybody selling make-up, Jacobs
And bootleg tapes just to get they cake up
We put shit on layaway then come back
We claim other kids on our income tax
We take that money cop work than push packs to get paid
And we don't care what people say
Momma say she wanna move south
Scratchin lottery tickets Eyes on a new house
Around the same time Doe ran up in dudes house
Couldnt get a job
So since he couldnt get work he figured hed take work
The drug game bolemic its hard to get weight
So niggas money is homo its hard to get straight
So we gon keep baking to the day we get cake.
And we dont care what people say "

Also how dull is Last Call!!!

haha thanx sterling

Sterling, "Last Call" is one of my favorite tracks! although yeah, the beat is a little dull (it was co-produced by Evidence from Dilated Peoples). but it's a great response to all the haters and a great way to sum up how he managed to turn things around from back when noone thought he'd make it as a rapper. while we're quoting verses:

"Some say he arrogant, can y'all blame him?
It was straight embarrassing how y'all played him
Last year shopping my demo I was trying to shine
Every motherfucker told me that I couldn't rhyme
Now I could let these dream killers kill my self esteem
Or use my arrogance as the steam to power my dreams
I use it as my gas so they say that I'm gassed
But without it I'd be lost so I ought to laugh
So I don't listen to the suits behind the desk no more
You niggas wear suits because you can't dress no more
You can't say shit to Kanye West no more"

also, "Never Let Me Down" is overall one of my least favorite tracks, but parts of Kanye's verse I love, especially the line "I do plan to marry your daughter, and you know I gotta thank you for the way that she was brought up". I mean, that's such a beautiful, wholesome sentiment, not even some sensitive indie rocker would have the guts to say something like that on a record, it's kind of ballsy.

I think El-P is a criminally underrated rapper, esp. as a lyricist.

"Squeegee Man Shooting" is fantastic... "wrote raps in my room sippin' capri suns..."

Agreed. But I like his voice a LOT. Especially on something like "Let's Get High"

"Jesus Walks" was the #1 most requested song today on the radio here, which may be due more to the recent surge of Jesus's popularity than Kanye's, i dunno, but "All Falls Down" was I think #3, and they keep playing the Lauryn Hill version here.

"Wow"
"Hey Mama"
"You Know" (aka "I'm Here Now") f/ John Legend, Whiteboy and Belo
"Apologize"
"Wack Niggas" f/ Talib Kweli
"I Need To Know"
"Finally Got It Right"
"Arguments" (featuring samples of Martin Lawrence standup)
"Yeah"
"Dream Killers" (aka "Gossip Files")
"Out The Game" f/ John Legend and Consequence
"The Good, The Bad, And The Ugly" f/ Consequence
"Keep The Receipt" f/ Dirt McGirt
"Livin' A Movie"
"My Way"
"Home"

it's kind of a shame Kanye leaks so many tracks, at least half of these are as good as anything on The College Dropout. he almost has enough for another album already, but by the time he's ready to put one out this stuff will have been out too long to use.

Tell me about this person.

haha too true.

I did the evil villian "mwahahaha" laugh when I read that.