What's wrong with being rockist? (or, does rockist sound like 'racist' for a reason?)

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Isn't it all subjective, ultimately? Some people are more into rock, some people are more into hip hop. Because hip hop is the most commerically successful genre right now, does that make it the 'best'? Discuss.

― Tab25, Wednesday, 11 February 2004 19:16 (twenty-two years ago)

What does rockism have to do with rock?

― @d@ml (nordicskilla), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 19:21 (twenty-two years ago)

Very little. If the person who started this thread bothered looking up any of the threads on rockism he'd probably figure that out.

― El Diablo Robotico (Nicole), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 19:23 (twenty-two years ago)

Actually Nicole I have just spent 5 minutes searching the archives and it's no easy task.

Today's off-the-cuff summary*: it's expecting a set of critical values derived from listening to one kind of music to apply to all kinds. The 'one kind' in question is generally rock but it needn't always be (a classic example of rockism is people valuing the Beatles because their melodies stood comparison to classical composition - here it's the values of classical music that are being used to marginalise non-Beatles rock).

As a critical strategy it can be useful - as a critical norm I think it sucks.

*students of the word may disagree.

I can't remember the last time I used it in absolute seriousness, also.

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 19:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Thanks for the explanation. So, when Ken Burns gets all creamy calling Jazz "America's Classical Music," that could also be definted as rockism?

― Tab25, Wednesday, 11 February 2004 19:32 (twenty-two years ago)

rockist does not equal rockist, though imagine if racer equalled racist...what would that say about:
http://www.absoluteanime.com/speed_racer/rex.jpg

― My Huckleberry Friend (Horace Mann), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 19:32 (twenty-two years ago)

If you're popist, is that like being a papist?

― Sym (shmuel), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 19:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Rapism is a crime.

― @d@ml (nordicskilla), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 19:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, Ken Burns is a good example, especially given the fact that he (influenced by Marsalis and Crouch?) seems to dismiss post-1960 jazz (for a variety of reasons having to do with it not being "real" jazz -- too chaotic, too electronic, too rock, etc.)

― jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 19:37 (twenty-two years ago)

I dunno because I don't know Burns' context.

Valuing composed jazz over improvised jazz on the basis that it is closer to classical music would be, I think. The thing is that there's nearly always a comparison or generalisation being implied - The Beatles are great, check out their classical melodies (unlike the rest of that awful rock rabble).

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 19:37 (twenty-two years ago)

I've found that people who are always carping about what's "authentic" and what isn't are joyless cranks.

― Tab25, Wednesday, 11 February 2004 19:39 (twenty-two years ago)

I'll have my man show you to the door.

― @d@ml (nordicskilla), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 19:40 (twenty-two years ago)

By which I mean - Welcome to ILM.

― @d@ml (nordicskilla), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 19:41 (twenty-two years ago)

So does that make all 'canons' automatically rockist, or are there mitigating factors (general consensus, generational experiences, aesthetic judgements)?

― pete s, Wednesday, 11 February 2004 19:46 (twenty-two years ago)

And as I have asked before, is rockism like film's "auteurism"?

Because it seems just as frustrating a concept, if not such a binding one.

― @d@ml (nordicskilla), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 19:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Actually Nicole I have just spent 5 minutes searching the archives and it's no easy task.

My bad. I was under the impression that this issue had been hashed out so many times on ilm that it would be pretty easy to find.

― El Diablo Robotico (Nicole), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 19:50 (twenty-two years ago)

I ask because i haven't encountered this word out of ILM, and ILM seems to have a whole (quite fascinating, and quite vast) theory or set of theories around this concept. I could do the search too, i know.

― pete s, Wednesday, 11 February 2004 19:52 (twenty-two years ago)

It seems a "canon" is good in concept but the canonized albums always end up being held up against new music which is unfair.

― djdee2005, Wednesday, 11 February 2004 19:53 (twenty-two years ago)

I'd say the idea of a canon in pop music is rockist yeah because it's taking a notion of value (or a value-structure) from other disciplines (literature, Western art music) and imposing it on popular music - a much younger form that is consumed in completely different ways. (A better idea of 'canon' for rock might have been the folk music ballad compilations - traditional songs that musicians might be expected to know and perform. In this sense a rock/pop canon might have been more like a DJ box or compilation album, the emphasis on *use* fitting the emergent form better. Still it's too late now, we're stuck with it and at least it keeps Highway 61 Revisited in print.)

xpost it's not that it hasn't Nicole! It's that if you search what you find are loads of threads where Lord Custos or someone asks what rockism is and everyone takes the piss. On the other hand those might be more useful.

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 19:53 (twenty-two years ago)

So does that make all 'canons' automatically rockist

I say no .. a canon is a generally accepted set, but not necessarily prejudicial. I see it as common ground.. Although some rockists do abuse it, don't they..? Anyway, a canon is not inherently rockist.

― dave225 (Dave225), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 19:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Actually come to think of it I'm wrong. Contemplation of the music has always been a part of how it's used, after all. The problem (for me) is that the formation of a canon based on that particular use won out over other kinds of canons.

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 20:00 (twenty-two years ago)

one of the major problems with ilm over the last 18 months is this rather pernicious idea (held up as much by the anti-rockists as rockists) that the opposite of "rockism" is somehow "popism".

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 20:03 (twenty-two years ago)

I'd rather listen to Highway 61 Revisited than the White Stripes anyday....

Ok, to extend the question, why does it seem politically correct to be hip hop centric (especially since hip hop is the most commercially viable genre now) but being rock centric makes you a cracker ass cracker?

― Tab25, Wednesday, 11 February 2004 20:05 (twenty-two years ago)

christ, are you even listening?

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 20:07 (twenty-two years ago)

it's expecting a set of critical values derived from listening to one kind of music to apply to all kinds.

it has nothing to do with any one genre.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 20:08 (twenty-two years ago)

What is the opposite of rockism?

― Sym (shmuel), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 20:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Possibly "having a canon" just = "valuing", and the latter (so the former is inevitable and OK).

Possibly "valuing" is always, or rather often, irritating when it's being done by someone other than yourself.

― the beefox, Wednesday, 11 February 2004 20:09 (twenty-two years ago)

Strongo- surely that's because the phrase "rock and pop" is part of the vernacular. "Rock and rap" or "Rock and klezmer". Aren't.

It's a dumb fucking position, obviously, but it's just people following blind semantic lanes.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 20:09 (twenty-two years ago)

You've answered your own question I think - part of it is because hip-hop is the most commercially viable genre and there's always been a big dose of populism in people's approaches to pop music. Rightly so IMO.

It's also worth mentioning that on - at a guess - 80-90% of Internet music forums rockcentricity is absolutely A-OK.

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 20:10 (twenty-two years ago)

The opposite of rockism is anti-rockism. I'm an anti-rockist and also probably a popist (depending on which definition you pick -- i haven't found/invented a decent one yet) but one doesn't imply the other. Also popist rockism is like the funnest thing ever. cf. "I was into N*E*R*D back before they were big. They were just NER then -- the D came later."

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 20:12 (twenty-two years ago)

it has nothing to do with any one genre

I'm not sure I buy that for two reasons: 1) That word "rock" that appears before the "ist"
2) In practice, I've never seen it applied to any genre but rock. I understand that theoretically it applies to all genres, but come on, look around.

― Tab25, Wednesday, 11 February 2004 20:17 (twenty-two years ago)

countryist is awkward

― My Huckleberry Friend (Horace Mann), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 20:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Because no one had bothered to define popism, and because they're positioned as natural opposites in so many people's minds, I assumed that when people said "popist" they meant "opposite of rockist." But I don't find popist a useful term and rockist has had the piss taken from it so thoroughly that it's lost any zing it had.

― Sonny A. (Keiko), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 20:21 (twenty-two years ago)

I always thought 'rockism' was having one set way of looking at and critiquing music, and refusing to acknowledge other ways (eg - the rock-centric person not seeing that the transience of chart pop can be good etc.) You can get rockists in all genres (look at Simon Cowell on World Idol!)

Then again I did only start posting here six months ago so this may be wildly off-base.

― The Lex (The Lex), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 20:22 (twenty-two years ago)

Also popist rockism is like the funnest thing ever.

Funnest or funniest? ;-) "You bastards weren't like MEEEEEEEEE listening to Timbaland productions from 1950 when he wasn't even born yet, fuckers!"

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 20:23 (twenty-two years ago)

Also one day I'd like to distinguish popism and populism. (Populism can be VERY rockist by the way). Pop can also be rockist and NOT populist or rockist AND populist or Popist and Rockist and Populist or none of the above. Popist Rockist Populist pop = Andrew W.K. None of the above = I Am The World Trade Center. Popist and anti-populist pop = Momus. Popist populist rock = the early who. Populist but not popist rock = the late who. rockist pop = solo townsend. popist anti-populist anti-rockist pop = stero total.

Questions?

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 20:25 (twenty-two years ago)

Tab25, I had trouble with that idea initially as well, but language isn't always logical. (To use an example I've used before: at the library where I work, from time to time someone will call up and want to discuss the meaning of "anti-semitic," arguing that it should include hatred of Arabs since they are semites. It "should" logically, but that's not what the word means in practice, because language is historical and messy rather than being logical.) I still sometimes find it to be an annoying or silly term. My using it in my screen name is a joke, but I think some of my musical values are in fact rockist (though some of them go against rockist values.)

― Rockist Scientist, Wednesday, 11 February 2004 20:25 (twenty-two years ago)

Whenever I see the word "rockist" on this board I think of aging hacks sitting around listening to The Beatles/Pink Floyd/Led Zeppelin/some other awful pre-punk "classic" rock band thinking "they don't make it like this any more. These kids don't UNDERSTAND..."

― Stupid (Stupid), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 20:27 (twenty-two years ago)

"Rockist" is used prolly cuz its the more common to find someone who believes in the almighty rock canon than those who believe in other-centric forms.

There aren't many hip hop-ists on here - there are a lot of hip hop fans, but they seem to eschew tradition. Not many people on here post about how Ludacris isn't "keeping it real" like the old school, or how sample-based production is inherently better than digital production (both of which would be hip hopist conceits).

Basically rockism is the use of fallacies about a genre/artist/music in general when evaluating that music.

― djdee2005, Wednesday, 11 February 2004 20:33 (twenty-two years ago)

what you call 'hip-hopist' i'd just call rockism.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 20:34 (twenty-two years ago)

Right, "rockism" is sort of a poor term for that reason.

― djdee2005, Wednesday, 11 February 2004 20:34 (twenty-two years ago)

you mean the you not liking it one?

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 20:35 (twenty-two years ago)

But what happens if the conclusions on here instead become rockist eventually? (Not saying one should care about the future that much, admittedly.)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 20:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Ned most of the conclusions on "here" are rockist NOW!

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 20:36 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't think of ppl as being "rockists" by the way - I think of arguments as being "rockist". And I've read rockist arguments that are pretty convincing, or at least ones that have convinced me that the person making them is no more stupid or lazy or dismissive or conservative than I am.

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 20:37 (twenty-two years ago)

you mean the you not liking it one?

uhhhh...no.
its a bad term because people assume it applies only to rock fans and therefore take it personally.

― djdee2005, Wednesday, 11 February 2004 20:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Ned most of the conclusions on "here" are rockist NOW!

I'm talking about yours, though!

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 20:38 (twenty-two years ago)

it's called rockism because the theory that pinned the stance down evolved out of early '80s rock vs. pop debates in UK music mags (please correct any of this if I'm wrong, btw, I'm going from memory here). it's nothing to get hung up about--if you go to the cinema and see a movie made with a digital camera and edited on a laptop you're still going to call it a "film," right?

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 20:38 (twenty-two years ago)

I'd call it a movie.

― My Huckleberry Friend (Horace Mann), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 20:39 (twenty-two years ago)

haha Moving Pixel Quarterly

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 20:39 (twenty-two years ago)

You've reminded me, Mr. Matos, I found my copy of Like Punk Never Happened, did you still need a photocopy or something?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 20:39 (twenty-two years ago)

With different participants, someone would have definitely said "fuck off, you rockist asshole" by now.

Kudos for keeping mostly civil.

― dave225 (Dave225), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 20:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Ned if I had "conclusions" maybe they would be.

also haha dj i love the idea of someone getting all offended if they just thought you said they liked rock music!

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 20:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Ned, I found the book! last April when I came out here for the EMP conference (and met Donut Bitch) I found it at a used bookstore. read it that week, oh hell yes. but thank you!

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 20:41 (twenty-two years ago)

This thread looks pretty sensible: What Is Rockism ?

A classic thread about Rockism from the Golden Age of ILM no less.

― Rockist Scientist, Wednesday, 11 February 2004 20:42 (twenty-two years ago)

You lot may have discussed this long ago, but I first heard the term "Rockism" used by Pete Wylie in an old NME article. Is he credited with inventing the phrase?

― LondonLee (LondonLee), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 20:43 (twenty-two years ago)

not everyone Matos, i.e. New York Press curmudgeon Armond White, who likes only 6 directors anyway, and likes no DV films because they're shot on DV (until Robert Altman, his favorite ever, made The Company, then of course he was showering love all over it) I think he might have said something about refusing to call them "cinema" or whatever.

― Gear! (Gear!), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 20:43 (twenty-two years ago)

yes the rhetorical "you" was meant to indicate an across-the-board acceptance of the term on all levels. thanks for playing.

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 20:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Ned, I found the book! last April when I came out here for the EMP conference (and met Donut Bitch) I found it at a used bookstore. read it that
week, oh hell yes. but thank you!

Rah! I am pleased. Find him and get him to write a column called The Anti-Meltzer, You Goddamned Fucks

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 20:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Yes Lee! Check the thread Rockist just linked to, Mark S' first post. (Which I think is actually Mark S' First Post!)

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 20:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Sterling's science broke my brain like woah.

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 20:44 (twenty-two years ago)

also haha dj i love the idea of someone getting all offended if they just thought you said they liked rock music!

Well that's where you get so many suckas claiming to be "proud" to be rockists. Clearly, they don't get it.

― djdee2005, Wednesday, 11 February 2004 20:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Ah ha! Good old Pete Wylie. The NME's letters page was full of Rockism-this and Rockism-that for months after that article appeared.

― LondonLee (LondonLee), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 20:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Which I think is actually Mark S' First Post!

No wonder he got tired of talking about it. I searched on "rockist" and "Wylie" (to try to eliminate completely frivolous threads).

(The internet has made us all reference librarians.)

― Rockist Scientist, Wednesday, 11 February 2004 20:46 (twenty-two years ago)

i always figured most people on ilm were just mods. as opposed to rockers or rockists or pop stars or crusty punks. or moderators. or modules.

― scott seward (scott seward), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 20:47 (twenty-two years ago)

I can read

― Gear! (Gear!), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 20:48 (twenty-two years ago)

djdee, have you really heard people say they were proud to be rockists? I'm not calling you a liar or anything but that seems like such an odd thing to say.

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 20:48 (twenty-two years ago)

i always figured most people on ilm were just mods. as opposed to rockers or rockists or pop stars or crusty punks. or moderators. or modules.

Actually, most of us are teddy boys.

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 20:50 (twenty-two years ago)

meaning of course that that POV for that particular subject is very popular. forget I said anything, back to rockist chat =/

― Gear! (Gear!), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 20:51 (twenty-two years ago)

I am a teddy BEAR.

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 20:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Outside of more formal criticism, rockism has an element of assuming everyone agrees that rock is at the center of the music universe. Rolling Stone is the classic example. To them the word "rock" is defined as "music to take seriously." Sinatra is rock. Robert Johnson is Rock. Shakira is rock. Anne Murray is pop.

― Mark (MarkR), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 20:52 (twenty-two years ago)

i think i'm a mod rocker with popping and locking tendencies.

― scott seward (scott seward), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 20:54 (twenty-two years ago)

or, alternately, people they can put on the cover to move units. (xpost)

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 20:54 (twenty-two years ago)

djdee, have you really heard people say they were proud to be rockists? I'm not calling you a liar or anything but that seems like such an odd thing to say.

Perhaps not on this board (I've only been here about a month after all...if that). But on other boards with ILM influence, yes.

― djdee2005, Wednesday, 11 February 2004 20:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Aren't there tons of "rockist" classical music listeners? I've heard lots of music majors here where I go to school that'll criticize a pop album for not being "complicated" enough.

― djdee2005, Wednesday, 11 February 2004 20:56 (twenty-two years ago)

i'd like someone to define rolling stone's ethos in one sentence. do they even have a worldview or point of view at this late date.

― scott seward (scott seward), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 20:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Goddess In The Doorway

― My Huckleberry Friend (Horace Mann), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 20:57 (twenty-two years ago)

oh jeez, forget i wrote that. i don't want to talk about rolling stone. i'm sorry. although that's a fine answer huck.

― scott seward (scott seward), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 20:57 (twenty-two years ago)

'Aren't there tons of "rockist" classical music listeners?'

Certainly as applied to classical music itself where, i would suggest, a canon is desirable.

― pete s, Wednesday, 11 February 2004 21:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Re Rolling Stone: "Legalize it, and I will advertise it."

― Richardstone, Wednesday, 11 February 2004 21:06 (twenty-two years ago)

Rolling Stone: "Nubile celebrity whoreclowns on parade."

― El Diablo Robotico (Nicole), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 21:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Rolling Stone: "David Fricke has cool hair."

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 21:14 (twenty-two years ago)

A Rockist is someone who prefers Lennon to McCartney and buys into concepts like "The Rolling Stones are the greatest rock n' roll band in the world" and "Dylan is a poet" as the Gospel truth.

― LondonLee (LondonLee), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 21:18 (twenty-two years ago)

A Rockist is someone who prefers Lennon to McCartney and buys into concepts like "The Rolling Stones are the greatest rock n' roll band in the world" and "Dylan is a poet" as the Gospel truth.

but couldn't there be indie rockists or heavy metal rockists that don't much give a shit about the beatles or dylan?

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 21:21 (twenty-two years ago)

Which of the following statements are rockist?

"Lennon was better because his tunes were better."
"Lennon was better because his songs have more integrity."
"McCartney was better because his melodies were more complex."
"McCartney was better because he was prettier."

(Ans: Dunno!)

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 21:22 (twenty-two years ago)

(Rockists) Arrange their record collections alphabetically, make and criticize lists, discuss music on net message boards, hate britpop for it's inauthenticity, value punk over prog....

― pete s, Wednesday, 11 February 2004 21:23 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't think there can be indie Rockists.

"Lennon was better because his songs have more integrity."

This one goes up to 11 on the Rockism-meter

― LondonLee (LondonLee), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 21:24 (twenty-two years ago)

If Popism isn't the opposite of Rockism what is it?

liking stuff in the charts?

― MikeB, Wednesday, 11 February 2004 21:25 (twenty-two years ago)

The term "rockist" just doesn't fit here. The idea of a "canon" existed way before there was such a thing as rock. And even critique of the idea of a canon has been around since way before rock. So the term is just stupid.

Besides, I see nothing wrong with the idea of a canon. Of course, having sort of an "objective" canon also implies that more "modern" styles of music will get into it after a while, which is exactly what has happened regarding "It Takes a Nation Of Millions...", "3 Feet High & Rising" and "Leftism", among others...

I would rather say the "non-rockists" have a problem, in that they seem to consequently write off anything that was written before punk happened (or even before hip-hop happened), just because it is old, and thus it is supposed to be "irrelevant" (which is of course bollocks, as music may never be irrelevant)

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 21:26 (twenty-two years ago)

THIS THREAD HAS BEEN LOCKED BY AN ANTI-GEIRIST ADMINISTRATOR

― It's Dead Now. Don't Fight It, Wednesday, 11 February 2004 21:27 (twenty-two years ago)

WHew! Reading Pete S's list, I was scared I was a rockist until I got to the "punk over prog" part.

Mark S. (as ever) on the fallacy of "popism" (first in a series of posts, midway through a longer thread):

Sasha Frere-Jones I Kiss You

― Broheems (diamond), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 21:28 (twenty-two years ago)

non-rockism is about not writing anything off geir.

alphabetizing your stuff is mania, not rockism.

― g--ff (gcannon), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 21:28 (twenty-two years ago)

Liking stuff in the charts as a principle is populism, it doesn't need a special word really.

Geir's appearance on this thread is like a frog hopping through the window of a biology lab.

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 21:30 (twenty-two years ago)

I would say sorting your record collection by genre would be considerably more rockist than alphabetizing it. :-)

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 21:32 (twenty-two years ago)

The 'real' answer to the Beatles statement qn is of course...

If you care who wrote which song you are ALREADY a rockist! Hurrah!

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 21:32 (twenty-two years ago)

Thanks y'all, this has cleared up some things for me.

Another question: is the term "rockist" inherently ageist?

Heheh. Sorry. (But is it?)

― Tab25, Wednesday, 11 February 2004 21:33 (twenty-two years ago)

is that like a spider dropping into your shower or a cow walking into a slaughterhouse?

― g--ff (gcannon), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 21:33 (twenty-two years ago)

A non-rockist is definitely ageist. Non-rockism is big time-ageism.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 21:34 (twenty-two years ago)

why did i like paul weller ten years ago?

First post today on this thread, to thread.

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 21:35 (twenty-two years ago)

not non-rockist geir, anti-rockist!

and yr. not a rockist so don't worry.

anyway, popism i think has to do with liking stuff BECAUSE it is popular or tries to be popular or is engaged with the popular discource (as opposed to populism which likes stuff SINCE it is popular, if that makes any sense.) it depends on where you're situated i mean -- like i'm a "popist" coz i relate to people in party by talking to them about music, so the music i like is the music i talk about with people is the music everyone else talks about is "pop".

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 21:36 (twenty-two years ago)

So you usually spend most of your time talking to 12-year-old girls then? After all, they are the ones who are into hitlist pop...

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 21:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Is it liking stuff BECAUSE it tries to be popular or liking stuff that tries to be popular?

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 21:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Does anyone like a song just because they like it, because it moves you, or do you have to take a socio-cultural inquiry before you decide?

― Tab25, Wednesday, 11 February 2004 21:40 (twenty-two years ago)

"socio cultural inquiry" = talking with someone else about it.

― g--ff (gcannon), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 21:41 (twenty-two years ago)

That's a pretty common position to take too Tab25 but I've never quite worked out if its rockist or not!

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 21:42 (twenty-two years ago)

So if you want to talk to 12-year-old girls about music, then you get into Justin Timberlake. If you want to talk to a 12-year-old boy about music, then you get into Eminem or 50 Cent.
If you want to talk to somebody your own age about music, I guess you'd better get into Travis, Coldplay, Dave Matthews Band or Matchbox 20 instead...

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 21:43 (twenty-two years ago)

to refine a bit: popism vs. populism as a question of where your "grounds" are. i.e. popism says it has virtues by virtue of being popular, whereas populism sez the populace picks the popular by virtue of its VIRTUES. i.e. 40 million frenchmen can't be wrong vs. 40 million frenchmen sure are a lot of people!

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 21:44 (twenty-two years ago)

You're losing me a bit Sterling but I think that's cos I need to go off and make some socio-cultural dinner.

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 21:49 (twenty-two years ago)

Geir I know lots of people into hitlist pop of all ages. (also note by hitlist pop i'm talking about, among other things, crunk, r&b, dancehall, and coldplay too).

Also Tom I think that imminence is a necessary part of the rockist mantle of contradictions, and probably a founding one -- i.e. "overintellectual analysis" is fine but only if it moves you *1st* -- i.e. you're "exploring" why it moves you as opposed to considering your "exploring" part of the "moving". i think i just proved rockism is kantian!

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 21:49 (twenty-two years ago)

By hitlist pop I am thinking of singles list stuff, not the stuff that sells lot on albums. Album fans are generally older than singles fans, and like completely different kinds of music usually.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 21:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Hey, over 100 responses, not bad for my first ILM thread, no?

You rockist crackers.

― Tab25, Wednesday, 11 February 2004 21:55 (twenty-two years ago)

are you saying im too young to like albums? i listen to the wall every day after band practice.

― ana, Wednesday, 11 February 2004 21:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Geir I know lots of people into hitlist pop of all ages.

Yeah, I mean how old do you think all of us are?

― jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 22:03 (twenty-two years ago)

are you saying im too young to like albums? i listen to the wall every day after band practice.
-- ana (ana_ros...), February 11th, 2004. (later)

OMG WTF LOL ANA'S BACK!1111111111111111111

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 22:10 (twenty-two years ago)

Does anyone like a song just because they like it, because it moves you, or do you have to take a socio-cultural inquiry before you decide?

If I make a socio-cultural inquiry it's usually after the initial response.

― Rockist Scientist, Wednesday, 11 February 2004 22:11 (twenty-two years ago)

OMG WTF LOL ANA'S BACK!1111111111111111111

Ana vs. Aja FITE

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 11 February 2004 22:23 (twenty-two years ago)

2) In practice, I've never seen it applied to any genre but rock. I understand that theoretically it applies to all genres, but come on, look around.

-- Tab25 (shookou...),

Rockism
Least Rockist Video Game
Rockist Historians

― N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 12 February 2004 01:42 (twenty-two years ago)

I think rockist is a term of abuse that Americans tend not to understand, because they tend to think it's about whether you like the Skynard or not. Whereas it's more about a pompousity about talking about music, a belief in canons and a fear of frivolity. Guitars-or-not is not the issue: liking Autreche is rockist, liking the Sweet isn't. (Generally, women are often rockist, although they often like to rock). I suspect that ILM has always been rockist, despite Tom's best intentions - people whose My Bloody Valentine obsessions overwhelm any fleeting flirtation with Britney - and has been terminally so since the ILE schism.

-- Mark Morris (mar...), November 5th, 2001 1:00 AM.

(I assume 'women are' was supposed to = 'women aren't')

― N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 12 February 2004 01:49 (twenty-two years ago)

The world needs fewer pompous frivolity mongerers whose motto is: "Come on! It'll be a hoot!"

― Rockist Scientist, Thursday, 12 February 2004 02:06 (twenty-two years ago)

Geirism > Rockism.

You know it's true.

― Jole, Thursday, 12 February 2004 09:30 (twenty-two years ago)

It should never be used earnestly -- because earnestness is 20% of rockism.

― Enrique (Enrique), Thursday, 12 February 2004 09:36 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm a rockist.

And it FOOKIN' RULEZ DUDE.

― Jimmy the Saint (Jimmy the Saint), Thursday, 12 February 2004 09:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Come on Rockist - it'd be fun!

― N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 12 February 2004 10:45 (twenty-two years ago)

If you want to talk to somebody your own age about music, I guess you'd better get into Travis, Coldplay, Dave Matthews Band or Matchbox 20 instead...

If you want them to laugh in your face, yeah, I suppose you would... none of my early twenties friends like this lot... in fact, who the fuck is Dave Matthews?

― ENRQ (Enrique), Thursday, 12 February 2004 10:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Rockism = modernism.

― Sick Nouthall (Nick Southall), Thursday, 12 February 2004 11:12 (twenty-two years ago)

er, that's right, mate... < /angst page ed>

― ENRQ (Enrique), Thursday, 12 February 2004 11:14 (twenty-two years ago)

(I assume 'women are' was supposed to = 'women aren't')
Yes, I s'pose so. Used to be extremely rockist though, but then I sorta floated out of it.

― nathalie (nathalie), Thursday, 12 February 2004 11:23 (twenty-two years ago)

I dunno, ENRQ, as I am on the continent where people (usually a little bit older than early 20 though) will usually buy Travis/Coldplay rather than Matchbox 20/Dave Matthews.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Thursday, 12 February 2004 11:32 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, Travis 'took off' when I was 16-17. They went mainstream as I was 18-19. And now they're tapering off a bit. But ppl my age only liked them in the first, 'U16 Girls' stage -- not me, I hasten to add. But anyway, you can't play that only 12-year-olds are into pop music: I was reading the NME aged 13, I was into plenty of the Britpop you like when it was around, and I'd far sooner her JT than Coldplay: age is irrelevant to taste.

― ENRQ (Enrique), Thursday, 12 February 2004 11:36 (twenty-two years ago)

You forget to mention that the (in)continent you're in is La-La-Land, Geir.

― Sick Nouthall (Nick Southall), Thursday, 12 February 2004 11:39 (twenty-two years ago)

Age might be irrelevant to taste in some regards but not in always. i, much to my shame liked New Kids On the Block when i was a wee nipper of 7/8. I knew not any better. i believe the progression of taste in music from the manure of pop to good music regardless of genre, is based on your surrondings....er...ive forgotten what i was trying to say now!!!!

― The Casper Method (The Casper Method), Thursday, 12 February 2004 11:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, when I was 12 I would have hated Justin Timberlake cos he was for GURLS and probably some ugly unrecognised homophobia would have been in the mix there too. Kids are far more conservative, in my general experience (exclusing Geir) than young adults. I've stopped caring about 'cool,' which played too big a role in my choices as a teenager (hence piles of crap prog-house).

― ENRQ (Enrique), Thursday, 12 February 2004 11:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Dunno, I always thought there was a difference between:

I'm not really into Missy Elliot much, I like The Darkness better!!!!

and

Missy Elliot!?!?!? That's NOT MUSIC, just someone TALKING over DRUMS!!!!! Give me REAL MUSIC like The Darkness anytime!!!!!!

The latterview is what I've always assumed "rockist" to mean!!!! (ie In crude terms the definition of every music in terms of rock, which is assumed to the one true music which civilisation has been been building up to, and from which everything else flows!!!!!)

― Old Fart!!! (oldfart_sd), Thursday, 12 February 2004 12:55 (twenty-two years ago)

djdee, have you really heard people say they were proud to be rockists? I'm not calling you a liar or anything but that seems like such an odd thing to say.

Erhm, Alex In NYC to thread?

I don't think there can be indie Rockists.

Wha? Most rockism I know comes from ppl who are mainly into Indie, at least as far as current music is concerned.

Another question: is the term "rockist" inherently ageist?

No, cuz tons of young ppl are rockists, in fact damn near everyone I know has gone through a "oh no I have to distance myself from that pre-packaged pop crap" phase, even if it only goes as far as liking The Offspring better than Britney (in fact there was a very interesting thread about teenage mainstream music fan's rockism once, concerning how many of the ppl who listen to, say, Destiny's Child would readily agree that Creed are better, for very rockist reasons.)

Does anyone like a song just because they like it, because it moves you, or do you have to take a socio-cultural inquiry before you decide?

Tastes can't actually be rockist (tho they can look rockist, admitidely.) It's when you start *justifying* yr tastes that rockism might begin (kind of like what Old Fart said, just preferring The Darkness over Missy ain't rockist but going "they play real instruments so they are bettah!" is)

― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Thursday, 12 February 2004 14:14 (twenty-two years ago)

Rockism = Apple Jacks (we just do, OKAY!?)

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Thursday, 12 February 2004 17:45 (twenty-two years ago)

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