One of the most telling presenters was that of Laina Dawes. Her profile synopsis at the Conf is here. In brief, Dawes is an African Canadian freelance music journalist and critic based in Toronto. She's moderated a panel in the past on Bad Brains; and she's currently working on a documentary on African Canadian metal fans. Her piece was based on her work on this documentary, and her trials being an African North American fan of heavy metal music. She has a blog -- http://www.lainad.com -- that's worth a read.
One of the stories she told that had me between tears and wanting to insert and extract a fist in one's mouth was her trying to get seated at a recent Judas Priest show in Hamilton, ON. Basically, a guy yelled over at her friend "HEY, I GOTTA GET ME ONE'A THOSE!" Charming.
The other pieces by Daphne Brooks and Kandia Crazy Horse were amazing too, for completely different reasons: Brooks, for her succinct and well presented tackling with Kalef Sennah's Village Voice "rockism" piece from an African American feminine perspective; and Crazy Horse for her disorganized (due to recent domestic troubles back home, she claimed) yet extremely tense and entertaining frustration/venting about being a big fan/writer of southern rock.
I unfortunately missed most of Sonnet Retman's piece on Nona Hendryx's career, Labelle, etc. due to an extreme coughing fit, for which I had to leave the room and swallow a big hot cup of citrus tea to quench.
Anyway, the most emotional part of this panel was the Q&A afterwords. My friend, who goes by Morley Timmons here at ILX attended, and asked an EXCELLENT question that was a great followup to another question from an African American woman behind her who previous posed the concept of this endless cycle of having to reframe the rock critic canon to incorporate African Westerners' persectives: (Morley, at any point, is welcome to correct my paraphrasing of her question, of course):
"OK, So!.. I love The Fall. I hang out with a lot of guys who also like The Fall. Except they always ask me what I think about their song 'The Classical' and Mark E. Smith's line 'THIS IS THE HOME OF THE VAIN! THIS IS THE HOME OF THE VAIN! Where are the obligatory niggers? HEY THERE FUCKFACE!! HEY THERE FUCKFACE!!' These guys always ask me how I feel about this, and why I could stand to listen to the band who had such a song... Now, WHEN does this stop? When do I have to stop defending why I love The Fall, despite that lyric with the N-word in that song?"
It's an extremely telling question, and one that has no easy answers. Well, there are easy answers as to why she has to defend herself, but there are no easy answers as to help solve when this will eventually stop.. or, more to the point, when will some sort of methodology exist such that Morley can enjoy The Fall with friends without ever having to be confronted with that above issue over and over and over again.
There was another African American woman who asked a similar question after Morley did, but in the context of getting involved in independent film. She encounters the same roadblocks/annoyances.
For those of you who attended the conference who saw the panel, who didn't see the panel, and to those of you who didn't go to the conference at all... Thoughts, please. Perspectives from folks who are of African descent here would be highly appreciated as well -- for obvious reasons.
― donut debonair (donut), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 17:09 (twenty years ago)
― Lethal Dizzle (djdee2005), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 17:24 (twenty years ago)
― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 17:29 (twenty years ago)
Again, i really should shut up and let Morley interject.
― donut debonair (donut), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 17:38 (twenty years ago)
― donut debonair (donut), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 17:39 (twenty years ago)
― donut debonair (donut), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 18:00 (twenty years ago)
― j blount (papa la bas), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 18:03 (twenty years ago)
― donut debonair (donut), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 18:04 (twenty years ago)
The cited line is a smart one about the way vanity/power needs a concept of something beneath it, something subordinate. So yeah Smith could have said "This is the home of the vain, where is obligatory concept of the subordinate?" The actual line gets there much more deftly, and not without some discomfort which is appropriate.
But your friend's friends are basically saying "she's black, she just hears the word 'nigger' and that's it, all rational thought shuts down." Bah.
― sans crit, Wednesday, 20 April 2005 18:14 (twenty years ago)
Allow me to amend your quote: "she's black, she just hears the word 'nigger' from a band of white people doing rock music, and that's it, all rational thought shuts down."
I know this is what you meant, but I thought a direct amendment was necessary.
― donut debonair (donut), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 18:24 (twenty years ago)
Funny you should mention it, there was a thread about this song last year, and lots of ilx0rs didn't seem to realize this. Proof!
― Shatterproof Glass (dymaxia), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 18:29 (twenty years ago)
Who was it said Mick Jagger was an updated Zip Coon who went and hunted some cool in order to turn those lips into an asset?
― bflaska, Wednesday, 20 April 2005 18:29 (twenty years ago)
The reaction of a Black woman who attends metal concerts is akin to being a one-legged leper at the Oscars: Folks will stare at you in disbelief and after a second of silence, point and laugh. If you share your love of Slayer with your friends and family, get ready for such remarks that imply that you are somehow a traitor to your race. Some will befriend you because your perceived difference means that a great story will be told with you as the unlikely protagonist – i.e. freak.
― Candicissima (candicissima), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 18:30 (twenty years ago)
― bflaska, Wednesday, 20 April 2005 18:36 (twenty years ago)
― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 18:38 (twenty years ago)
― Candicissima (candicissima), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 18:41 (twenty years ago)
― Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 19:11 (twenty years ago)
Also, this is semi-unrelated, but my (African-American) friend Janine sang "Brown Sugar" at a kareoke bar on Saturday, and after the song was over she came off the stage and said, "Holy shit, I just realized what that's about! You can't say that, English dude!"
― Eppy (Eppy), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 19:16 (twenty years ago)
― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 19:18 (twenty years ago)
Was anyone besides donut and MT even at the freaking panel? I'm dying to hear even the gist of the Nona Hendryx paper. That woman is awesome and my fictional band is partly named after her.
I have a feeling this thread is going to die a painful death. Or else, silently read but barely nothing added. ILM speechless? That's unheard of.
― Candicissima (candicissima), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 19:21 (twenty years ago)
― Alex is embarrassed in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 19:22 (twenty years ago)
― jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 19:23 (twenty years ago)
― miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 19:24 (twenty years ago)
― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 19:25 (twenty years ago)
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 19:25 (twenty years ago)
― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 19:27 (twenty years ago)
I admit I'm self-obsessed, but I am not bald. I didn't go to the the conference. But truly, I hope you clear your head and say what you need to.
― bflaska, Wednesday, 20 April 2005 19:28 (twenty years ago)
― Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 19:28 (twenty years ago)
Conversely, back in my clubbing days I would tend to get mobbed by irritating E-heads who wanted to strike Benetton poses with me because we are all one! Argh, go away and let me dance (but leave your cute friend in the miniskirt, perv perv).
― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 19:31 (twenty years ago)
(see the thread's going already -- )
― bflaska, Wednesday, 20 April 2005 19:34 (twenty years ago)
Funniest bit:
My parents were already horrified that I dreamt about Bobby Gillespie rather than Bobby Brown (although their parallel drug-use paths eventually led them in the same direction).
Best bit:
But the thing was, Mark E. made me feel better about being black. Before, I’d felt so uncomfortable in my own small-town skin that I fell into self- loathing. I was bad at being a girl, and even worse at being black if it meant I had to go to church every day and listen to the Jets in order to feel at one with my people. But seeing a wiry ex-dockworker from Manchester spin tales that he didn’t expect anyone to understand, much less sing along with, made me breathe a little more easily.He did what he thought was right (although often it wasn’t), took the rap, and remained steadfastly himself. And I thought, If he can do that, why can’t I?
:-D
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 19:35 (twenty years ago)
― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 19:36 (twenty years ago)
Clearly the next step is the electric slide.
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 19:36 (twenty years ago)
― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 19:37 (twenty years ago)
― Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 19:41 (twenty years ago)
― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 19:42 (twenty years ago)
― carl w (carl w), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 19:45 (twenty years ago)
― Black Chomsky (Donna Brown), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 19:45 (twenty years ago)
― Black Chomsky (Donna Brown), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 19:46 (twenty years ago)
― Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 19:47 (twenty years ago)
I. 1. In-ah the begin-NING-AH...
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 19:48 (twenty years ago)
― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 19:48 (twenty years ago)
― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 19:49 (twenty years ago)
Didn't stop me from spending $700 on concert tickets, concert t-shirts and paraphenelia when I got back to Boston. I miss my disposable income.
― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 19:53 (twenty years ago)
― Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 19:57 (twenty years ago)
― Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 20:00 (twenty years ago)
Were there any other British bands similar to the Fall that were signed to Motown around this time? That would add some credence to Smith's story. Otherwise, I find it exceedingly dubious.
― o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 20:05 (twenty years ago)
MT, that piece was great! And believe me, that growing up stuff was just as true in the late 90s as it was in 1985. (Someone needs to write some sort of paper about how afrocentric music/culture of the '90s made it finally okay to be darker than a paper bag -- it can be stiched together for sure.) I ended up lucky by growing up in NYC with parents who were listening to Living Colour, country, and Kraftwerk, among other things. So, me listening to something like Steely Dan was more notable for being elevator music-ish than strange. I used to go to South Carolina every summer and I'll never forget the joy I felt at running into this ultra punk rock black chick with neon yellow hairin Gr33nvill3. I always wanted to die my hair but couldn't bring myself to strip it.
Anyways...I love it at shows when everyone's so curious to know if I'm enjoying myself. Music? Live? What a new experience for me! I do need someone to explain those strange things happening on stage!
― Candicissima (candicissima), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 20:06 (twenty years ago)
― jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 20:06 (twenty years ago)
― Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 20:12 (twenty years ago)
He wore green on green, and "jazz boots" (like what the Beatles started wearing later)
awesome!
― miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 20:14 (twenty years ago)
Hahahaha, awesome! I want that on a t-shirt! FWIW, Daphne and Kandia are both so fucking smart, it's wacky (and excellent).
― Je4nne ƒury (Jeanne Fury), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 20:16 (twenty years ago)
Amy Phillips looked at me halfway through the Q&A and said, "Laina Dawes should be writing for Decibel." I was like, "Fuck yeah." So hopefully that'll happen.
― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 20:18 (twenty years ago)
x-post And yeah really she shouldn't have been apologizing for jack, especially being that it was "our" panel. She should've screamed "shut the fuck up, white man! You're oppressing me on my time!" I just think that would've been funny to hear (about).
― Candicissima (candicissima), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 20:19 (twenty years ago)
― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 20:20 (twenty years ago)
Shifting gears a bit but I hope vaguely relevant, when I was visiting Shreveport two years back, my impression of the music base of the area was easily country/hip-hop/metal/'modern rock' straight up. I loved it!
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 20:21 (twenty years ago)
― Je4nne ƒury (Jeanne Fury), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 20:27 (twenty years ago)
― Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 20:28 (twenty years ago)
two words that i never imagine being together in the same sentence! ;-)
― latebloomer: strawman knockdowner (latebloomer), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 20:30 (twenty years ago)
― Candicissima (candicissima), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 20:32 (twenty years ago)
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 20:39 (twenty years ago)
― Candicissima (candicissima), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 20:42 (twenty years ago)
― pdf (Phil Freeman), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 20:42 (twenty years ago)
― Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 20:42 (twenty years ago)
That wacky Reynard!
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 20:45 (twenty years ago)
― Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 20:47 (twenty years ago)
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 20:49 (twenty years ago)
― Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 20:55 (twenty years ago)
Oh man...all we need now is somewhere here representing Greer. GSP! Holla!
But back to the topic at hand, black women rock...for real. And we like to listen to the music too. Minus "Pretty Fly For A White Guy", they're at least videos where the main event isnt a black ass.
― Candicissima (candicissima), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 20:56 (twenty years ago)
i'm sorry, but the phrase "black ass" made me look up pics of Pharrell and...wow.
― miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 21:01 (twenty years ago)
― Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 21:02 (twenty years ago)
― Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 21:03 (twenty years ago)
― miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 21:04 (twenty years ago)
-- Candicissima (candicissim...), April 20th, 2005.
i actually dont live far from TR! i live in berea.
ok, back to the discussion. i'll step aside.
― latebloomer: But when the monkey die, people gonna cry. (latebloomer), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 21:06 (twenty years ago)
Oh, yes, the "So, I guess you don't 'dig' this type of music" dude at Berbati's Pan in Portland.
― donut debonair (donut), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 21:32 (twenty years ago)
― donut debonair (donut), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 21:34 (twenty years ago)
― Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 21:36 (twenty years ago)
AT LAST! Er, wait.
The guy was a dipstick = yay showers of abuse!
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 21:37 (twenty years ago)
― Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 21:38 (twenty years ago)
― strng hlkngtn, Wednesday, 20 April 2005 21:41 (twenty years ago)
Obviously, as MT and others have mentioned, certain white folks have a lot to answer for when they try to tackle someone of African descent liking music that is, for lack of a better term, "white/indie". But since I'm not black, I can't relate at all to being called a "traitor" just because of my musical tastes. I don't have any "white power" friends, as it turns out. (Oh darn) And if I do and I don't know it, I guess I haven't broken out enough Missy or Trick Daddy lines in their presence. So, hearing about this really turns my gut.
I think one thing that was mentioned as more of a makeshift than a full solution to this crisis (and yes, it is a crisis) is, cliché or not, start a community and keep together. I noticed Laina has a black blogger ring link at the bottom of one of her pages, which is probably worth investigating..
And goddamn, Morley's Mark E. Smith piece should not only be linked by almost every musical blog in the world as it is, but it should have been presented at that panel, and that piece would have gotten thunderous applause. I was just so fucking blown away by her piece. Seriously.
― donut debonair (donut), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 21:48 (twenty years ago)
― Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 21:54 (twenty years ago)
― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 21:56 (twenty years ago)
I'm not sure if this will make sense, but this stood out for me. In that it was fans of the Fall asking this question! Apparently only white people can listen to this song, without black people around, so the supposedly offensive bits can be absorbed without guilt and without consideration.
That probably doesn't make a lick of sense, I'm not very lucid today...
― Gear! (can Jung shill it, Mu?) (Gear!), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 22:04 (twenty years ago)
http://www.camscottleisure.co.uk/entertainers_photographs/keith_harris_large.jpg
???
― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 22:06 (twenty years ago)
― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 22:13 (twenty years ago)
― Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 22:14 (twenty years ago)
What you're getting at makes total sense, Gear!.. completely. What those dudes you are questioning are doing makes even less sense than you imply, though. I do think the offensive bits are absorbed with guilt, so much that only they're allowed to feel guilty about it and must "shelter the oppressees (or at least inform them of this band's shortcomings in a condescending way)"
― donut debonair (donut), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 22:15 (twenty years ago)
― Gear! (can Jung shill it, Mu?) (Gear!), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 22:17 (twenty years ago)
― donut debonair (donut), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 22:20 (twenty years ago)
And of course they didn't. What wusses. I guess they didn't want to risk being branded as racists, but shit, I mean, if you want to avoid such controversy, DON'T FUCKING COVER A CONTROVERSIAL FALL SONG! Cover "New Face In Hell" or "Before The Moon Falls" or "Various Times" or something else instead! Biggest chance to bring this issue some higher profile dialogue averted by wussiness. Good Times.
― donut debonair (donut), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 22:27 (twenty years ago)
Black people are capable of being just as fucked up and racist towards black people as white people are. This more than anything else really hammers home the concept of racial equality to me.
― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 22:35 (twenty years ago)
― Lovelace (Lovelace), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 22:40 (twenty years ago)
― Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 22:51 (twenty years ago)
― Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 22:52 (twenty years ago)
haha - they already "covered" that one!
― Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 20 April 2005 22:53 (twenty years ago)
― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 22:54 (twenty years ago)
― Lovelace (Lovelace), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 22:56 (twenty years ago)
xpost
― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 22:56 (twenty years ago)
x-post
― Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 20 April 2005 22:59 (twenty years ago)
― Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 22:59 (twenty years ago)
1988 (ie, the year "Parents Just Don't Understand" hit mainstream radio).
― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 23:01 (twenty years ago)
― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 23:02 (twenty years ago)
uh, I dont know under which rock you live but for a long time lots of whites who liked hip hop and lived the culture were often accused of wanting to be black and such things. you have never heard of this?!
― Lovelace (Lovelace), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 23:02 (twenty years ago)
― Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 23:05 (twenty years ago)
― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 23:06 (twenty years ago)
― Gear! (can Jung shill it, Mu?) (Gear!), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 23:07 (twenty years ago)
"were"? Lovelace, it's happening in both white and black populations today.
― donut debonair (donut), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 23:08 (twenty years ago)
― Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 23:08 (twenty years ago)
and this is relevant how? I just don't see your point. being accused of "wanting to be black" is such a loaded accusation, one rooted in racism to begin with, and is an accusation that was certainly present in previous periods (jazz, r&b) and is probably *still* prevalent today... (so the answer to your question is "never", since people are still racist, I guess?) But if you're trying to draw some parallel between white hip hop fans and black heavy metal fans, I think you're venturing into very, very treacherous waters.
x-x-post
― Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 20 April 2005 23:09 (twenty years ago)
― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 23:09 (twenty years ago)
― Gear! (can Jung shill it, Mu?) (Gear!), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 23:10 (twenty years ago)
― Gear! (can Jung shill it, Mu?) (Gear!), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 23:11 (twenty years ago)
Too bad because you missed out on OPERATION MINDCRIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIME. Or did you?
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 23:12 (twenty years ago)
duh
― Lovelace (Lovelace), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 23:12 (twenty years ago)
― Gear! (can Jung shill it, Mu?) (Gear!), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 23:13 (twenty years ago)
― Gear! (can Jung shill it, Mu?) (Gear!), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 23:14 (twenty years ago)
― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 23:15 (twenty years ago)
what Im saying is this goes both ways, but obviously worse for black people(this is coming from a black guy who has gone to loads of indie concerts by myself because all my friends hate guitar music...unless its by Jimi of course!).
― Lovelace (Lovelace), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 23:16 (twenty years ago)
― Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 20 April 2005 23:29 (twenty years ago)
White families very much are trying to keep their kids from "going black", which surely gets passed along to friends in school, to this day. It's not universal, but it exists.
― donut debonair (donut), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 23:36 (twenty years ago)
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 23:37 (twenty years ago)
― donut debonair (donut), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 23:39 (twenty years ago)
― donut debonair (donut), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 23:40 (twenty years ago)
― Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 20 April 2005 23:41 (twenty years ago)
I grew up as a totally socially inept sheltered white boy (near Malibu, in fact!) who was afraid to admit I listened to disco lest I get beat up by all the Grateful Dead/Led Zep/Pink Floyd loving white junior high kids. And if you know L.A., it's easy to grow up in L.A. and avoid contact with black people if you live in the "right" neighborhood, although you might have to drive through that "bad" part of town due to a freeway detour, which "of course makes you a target", etc.
― donut debonair (donut), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 23:48 (twenty years ago)
― The Brainwasher (Twilight), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 23:52 (twenty years ago)
― The Brainwasher (Twilight), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 23:55 (twenty years ago)
being from hamilton, ontario -- the land of the abandoned steel factory, malls, crack-cocainea, mysterious blood trails and heavy metal ... the key words are Hamilton, ON .. if you show up in Hamilton, much less a Judas Priest show in Hamilton, what is said to you shouldn't be shocking, much less end up in an analogy ....
― doomie x, Wednesday, 20 April 2005 23:59 (twenty years ago)
Black people are capable of being just as fucked up and racist towards black people as white people are.
Gotta OTM this while I pop in for a min. I got a Man Man show to go to, y'all! Yay tokenism!
Anyways, did anyone else see the Afropunk movie? It was really great -- especially since everyone had the "I'm the only black kid I know that likes punk" thing when their stories were all the same. They even addressed the to do the universal black acknowledgement/ignore the other black person at a show because I don't want to have to do that conundrum. I even liked that they had the one girl who all "I don't ever date/like black men because they can't accept I like punk..and my mom says their woman beaters!" which stunned me into silence and you know probably wouldn't have made it in another movie.
holy xpost! Ooooh, Brainwasher...you must be living in a dreamworld. Sorry. Especially since that was the last thing that movie was about.
― Candicissima (candicissima), Thursday, 21 April 2005 00:03 (twenty years ago)
― Candicissima (candicissima), Thursday, 21 April 2005 00:06 (twenty years ago)
― The Brainwasher (Twilight), Thursday, 21 April 2005 00:07 (twenty years ago)
Maybe you should go see the movie before you criticize it then.
― Candicissima (candicissima), Thursday, 21 April 2005 00:12 (twenty years ago)
Nevertheless i have to say it... GREAT THREAD and thanks!
― jed_ (jed), Thursday, 21 April 2005 00:52 (twenty years ago)
shepdini
― LET'S GET VISCERAL, Thursday, 21 April 2005 01:05 (twenty years ago)
― Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Thursday, 21 April 2005 02:40 (twenty years ago)
i mean the assumptions that go with that sort of discussion make it doubly obnoxious too, but even on its own.
― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Thursday, 21 April 2005 03:32 (twenty years ago)
― Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Thursday, 21 April 2005 03:39 (twenty years ago)
― donut debonair (donut), Thursday, 21 April 2005 04:10 (twenty years ago)
"These guys always ask me how I feel about this, and why I could stand to listen to the band who had such a song... Now, WHEN does this stop? When do I have to stop defending why I love The Fall, despite that lyric with the N-word in that song?"
I have fielded this same question countless times myself with regards to the line in "Whores" by Jane's Addiction when Perry sings:
"Way down low where the streets are littered, Ifind my fun with the freaks and the niggers".
It was always fairly obvious to me that there wasn't any racist intent and it never really bothered me. My white friends were always much more sensitive to that word than I was.
― J-rock (Julien Sandiford), Thursday, 21 April 2005 04:23 (twenty years ago)
― Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Thursday, 21 April 2005 04:34 (twenty years ago)
― J-rock (Julien Sandiford), Thursday, 21 April 2005 06:51 (twenty years ago)
It is fucking amazing to see this thread! Thank you Michaelangelo for letting me know this post was up, and yes, I gotta get my butt in gear and check out the Decibel folks.
A couple of things: I should be smacked for not picking up a Decibel mag when I was in Borders downtown in Seattle - since I realized the next day that we don't get it in Canada - or at least I assumed, since I read alot of metal magazines and have never seen it - but on the other hand, if there is a Canadian Black-Bredren who is writing for it, then I'd better go searching for a copy....
As all EMP presenters know, we didn't have enough time to really dig into our presentations - I am going to post my "academic" - IE: presentation that includes no profanity - on my site soon. This is such a interesting topic and a touchy one, and I have been really excited to receive so much positive responses after the panel. Oh,and yes, I made a huge error in apologizing - Mark Anthony Neal told me after the panel that I really am Canadian because I apologize too much!
The Afropunk website, at least to myself, is such an interesting site. I don't believe that it is a bunch of Black folks complaining for nothing: It seems to be more about discussing equal inclusion into the punk scene as legitimate players and fans.I have attended hundreds of punk / grunge / metal shows, and while you deal with dirty looks, guffaws of laughter and the occasional finger pointing, I'm still alive and still going.You just shouldn't have to worry about getting 'picked on' or having your life threatened when you want to go see a show - but you shouldn't have to avoid going, either.
By the way, is anyone here a No Means No fan? There this legendary prog/punk band from Vancouver who are totally amazing, and probably have one of the best bassists I've ever heard......
Holla!
― Laina Dawes, Thursday, 21 April 2005 10:10 (twenty years ago)
― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 21 April 2005 10:38 (twenty years ago)
― Raymond Cummings (Raymond Cummings), Thursday, 21 April 2005 11:02 (twenty years ago)
― Candicissima (candicissima), Thursday, 21 April 2005 11:24 (twenty years ago)
Oh,and yes, I made a huge error in apologizing - Mark Anthony Neal told me after the panel that I really am Canadian because I apologize too much!
Hahah! National stereotypes ahoy!
And NoMeansNo are the ultraspiff. :-) Most of the AMG reviews are from me, I think.
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 21 April 2005 11:42 (twenty years ago)
i mean yeah, that line is worth dealing with, but it absolutely becomes one of the little convo checklist things to say about them, to some degree regardless of the race of the participants in the conversation?
& maybe this is not a "my indie world" thing so much as a not knowing *enuf* about fall fan types and their discussions, where i'd imagine it comes up slightly less, given that real fall fans would assume it was a known issue more amongst themselves?
& maybe i'm being dim here, but if we're talking about ppl. who know jack-all about the fall, aren't we already talking about a relatively small segment of the u.s. population?
― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Thursday, 21 April 2005 12:22 (twenty years ago)
― A Viking of Some Note (Andrew Thames), Thursday, 21 April 2005 12:25 (twenty years ago)
FWIW, the most racially mixed musical events I've been to have all been goth nights.
― Eppy (Eppy), Thursday, 21 April 2005 13:50 (twenty years ago)
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 21 April 2005 13:53 (twenty years ago)
Yeah, as I just posted in the NoMeansNo thread, "Wrong" would fit in really well today, except it would be called "post-punk." They have a real sense of humor and a real sense of poetry and a real sense of melody and a real sense of volume. The arrangements still blow my mind.
Gonna go listen to that right now...
I'm jealous you get to see them live, Laina! I'm gonna miss them in Chi-town by like 3 days...
― Eppy (Eppy), Thursday, 21 April 2005 14:12 (twenty years ago)
ANYWAY... I asked WAAAAY upthread what Kandia Crazy Horse said upthread about Mick Jagger and then bflaska posted this:
And yup, that was Kandia Crazy Horse who said that. Do I agree with her? Not sure, as I've honestly never explored the Stones that much to weigh in, but I must give her credit for such a great line.
THAT SAID, there was another panel -- the Lips panel -- where there was a piece specifically about the Rolling Stones logo and those lips.. so it's possible that this quote technically came as a reference in THAT presentation, and not from the How To Rock Like A Black Feminist panel, directly. I wish I had a digital tape recorder throughout the weekend.
Crazy Horse also said a very amusing yet endearing thing about The Black Crowes. She talked about how much she loved their music, because they just, well, broke it down, as far as what she wanted out of their music -- specifically the groove/dance element. She was especially thankful about the hymn reference in their sophomore album titled, as she felt the hymn was a very important concept in the southern music she liked, and didn't what that history erased. Their music spoke to her, and shook her ass -- although she specifically noted that Chris Robinson himself didn't endear her.. in fact, I think she said something about "ew, i would never want to be anywhere near that skinny ass! But the Crowes' music ruled me" or something like that. :)
― donut debonair (donut), Thursday, 21 April 2005 16:31 (twenty years ago)
― jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 21 April 2005 16:36 (twenty years ago)
A most sensible judgment.
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 21 April 2005 16:39 (twenty years ago)
― Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Thursday, 21 April 2005 17:43 (twenty years ago)
They don't have to be told that to their faces. They can see the white kids sending quizzical looks their way. At least this is how it was back in the 80s - I don't go to punk shows nowadays.
I mean, please. I'm sorta white and I've seen and heard plenty.
I love the idea that someone has to use the n-word in order to be a racist or to make a black person feel uncomfortable.
― Shatterproof Glass (dymaxia), Thursday, 21 April 2005 19:08 (twenty years ago)
― donut debonair (donut), Thursday, 21 April 2005 19:14 (twenty years ago)
Sterling, with all due respect, please give up, as far as this line of thinking goes.
I've talked about The Fall with friends for the last 20 years, and I count the number of times on almost two hands where "The Classical"'s line came up in conversation.
Convo check list? Are you KIDDING me?
So, basically "shut up and relax because it's a relatively obscure band"?
I really hope you're just stating REALLY badly some other sentiments you had in mind, because you're essentially fortifying Morley's anger and proving her raison d'etre.
― donut debonair (donut), Thursday, 21 April 2005 19:19 (twenty years ago)
― Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Thursday, 21 April 2005 19:57 (twenty years ago)
― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 21 April 2005 19:57 (twenty years ago)
― donut debonair (donut), Thursday, 21 April 2005 20:00 (twenty years ago)
I'm sure they did back in the day.
― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 21 April 2005 20:02 (twenty years ago)
― Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Thursday, 21 April 2005 20:03 (twenty years ago)
i may be walking into far more hot water on this with the next point and offbase insofar as i seem to have run into discussion of the "the classical" story more than most (and i don't even talk about the fall that much) but there's something about what stories get retold and considered significant that matters. like the whole "classical" story is also in part the "how the fall were almost signed to motown" story and what it sort of implies in some tellings (tho clearly not explicitly or always) is "the motown reps were too dim/sensitive to see the *irony* in that line, but i, the discriminating listner, am *not*." with all the further subtext therein (in part being m.e.s. is too cool/controversymongering, etc. to be p.c. maaan).
the actual mes interview that gives source to this story, best i can tell, doesn't actually say that this *was* the reason motown didn't sign -- it's just idle speculation on mes' part. but it makes a better story the more that it's embelished, and the more all that subtext is drawn out.
c.f. the discussion at the bottom of the stylus review here: http://www.stylusmagazine.com/review.php?ID=2751
[i.e. what makes this story "fun"?]
(& yes this isn't rilly about morley's q. anymore, but me just taking the conversation somewhere other, sorry.)
― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Friday, 22 April 2005 02:19 (twenty years ago)
― Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Friday, 22 April 2005 02:35 (twenty years ago)
How to rock like a black feminist critic: be prepared to listen to a lot of horseshit.
― Candicissima (candicissima), Friday, 22 April 2005 02:46 (twenty years ago)
― Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Friday, 22 April 2005 02:53 (twenty years ago)
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 22 April 2005 02:55 (twenty years ago)
― Candicissima (candicissima), Friday, 22 April 2005 02:59 (twenty years ago)
― Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Friday, 22 April 2005 03:01 (twenty years ago)
― efil4zelffor (deangulberry), Friday, 22 April 2005 03:07 (twenty years ago)
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 22 April 2005 03:08 (twenty years ago)
― A Viking of Some Note (Andrew Thames), Friday, 22 April 2005 03:09 (twenty years ago)
― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Friday, 22 April 2005 03:17 (twenty years ago)
― Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Friday, 22 April 2005 03:19 (twenty years ago)
― Cunga (Cunga), Friday, 22 April 2005 03:44 (twenty years ago)
― j blount (papa la bas), Friday, 22 April 2005 06:48 (twenty years ago)
― j blount (papa la bas), Friday, 22 April 2005 06:49 (twenty years ago)
― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 26 April 2005 18:55 (twenty years ago)
― Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Tuesday, 26 April 2005 22:05 (twenty years ago)
Any thoughts on the Source petition?
― Candicissima (candicissima), Tuesday, 26 April 2005 22:55 (twenty years ago)
― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Tuesday, 26 April 2005 22:56 (twenty years ago)
― miccio (miccio), Tuesday, 26 April 2005 22:56 (twenty years ago)
― donut debonair (donut), Tuesday, 26 April 2005 23:01 (twenty years ago)
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 27 April 2005 00:12 (twenty years ago)
― Gear! (can Jung shill it, Mu?) (Gear!), Wednesday, 27 April 2005 00:14 (twenty years ago)
― ng, Wednesday, 27 April 2005 00:26 (twenty years ago)
― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 27 April 2005 00:40 (twenty years ago)
― Candicissima (candicissima), Wednesday, 27 April 2005 03:30 (twenty years ago)
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 27 April 2005 03:38 (twenty years ago)
Do male critics/fans even have the problem of going up to opposite sex musicians and having things so clouded because they are convinced you obviously want them? There's this band I became really close with via my rabid fangirl raves on my blog and at one point I had to step away because it became "what exactly do you think is going on here? I'm not your fucking Band Aid!"
― Candicissima (candicissima), Wednesday, 27 April 2005 03:52 (twenty years ago)
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 27 April 2005 03:57 (twenty years ago)
"I'm a part of a reading on Thursday at 7:30 p.m., Room 555, Lerner Hall, on the Morningside Campus of Columbia University. It's sponsored by OUR WORD, the Columbia School of the Arts' Organization for Writers of Color. It's the fifth annual reading, for second-year MFA students -- Jennifer Assef, Meredith Broussard, Diana Marie Delgado, Gail Dottin, Aisha D. Gayle, Tania James, and Rhena Tantisunthorn -- but they invite MFA students from around NYC, so there's also Mohan Sikka and Victoria Bond of Brooklyn College, and myself and Steve Caratzas from The New School. If you're uptown, do stop by. I don't even know for how long we get to read, maybe 5-7 minutes? Dunno. But I'll be reading from Bliss and hopefully a tiny bit from More Like Wrestling. And so it begins!"
― steve-k, Wednesday, 27 April 2005 12:17 (twenty years ago)
― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 27 April 2005 12:36 (twenty years ago)
Some statements in this thread prove there's a need for far more such panels. [and speaking of The Source miasma: things have obviously devolved to such a state b/c my self-hating homeboy from Chocolate City foolishly decided to enact "Lott's process" in yoking himself to that Thug-By-Numbers.....Whoever brought up white listeners suffering for hip-hop is blatantly ignoring their white (male) power everywhere else. You don't have good ole boys at the label trying to kill your (laudatory) piece about one of their bands on the one hand nor your colored parents on the other telling you to just stop going to hear the crackers and write for VIBE/cover Puffy instead (as if it were that simple!)...nor are you accused, yes, of being a race traitor/"white"...nor have to tangle with some prominent members of the Cornbread Cosa Nostra wanting you to fulfill their MANDINGO fantasies backstage...]
It's very true that one need not be called "Nigger!" to have a nightmare experience at the rock show. Metal's Laina's thang but, having covered my beloved rednecks for so long, I am here to tell you that being the "only one in the room" is not fun. It's not a question of feeling branded --- I've mostly not even consciously let it impede my fun w/ the bikers and the farmgirls and Yueh-ling twirlers...but cumulatively, it's a bitch, VERY wearing. And if I only had a dime for everytime some ig'nant chile asked me if I was Jaimoe's daughter...
― Kandia Crazy Horse, Friday, 6 May 2005 02:28 (twenty years ago)
Can someone drag Daphne Brooks to the thread now?
― Candicissima (candicissima), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 20:50 (twenty years ago)
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 20:51 (twenty years ago)
― Candicissima (candicissima), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 20:57 (twenty years ago)
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 21:08 (twenty years ago)
― jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 21:12 (twenty years ago)
― j blount (papa la bas), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 21:17 (twenty years ago)
All of those issues aside, and that "over-academia in presentation" issue, I feel like I missed an otherwise great piece on Hendryx... as she is definitely overlooked, from what I heard at the tail end of the piece.
― donut debonair (donut), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 21:23 (twenty years ago)
― don, Wednesday, 11 May 2005 23:46 (twenty years ago)
i bet i'll regret this but um, what the heck does that mean?
― J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Thursday, 12 May 2005 00:25 (twenty years ago)
― Candicissima (candicissima), Thursday, 12 May 2005 00:39 (twenty years ago)
― Candicissima (candicissima), Thursday, 12 May 2005 00:44 (twenty years ago)
― J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Thursday, 12 May 2005 02:38 (twenty years ago)
― A Viking of Some Note (Andrew Thames), Thursday, 12 May 2005 02:44 (twenty years ago)
― j blount (papa la bas), Thursday, 12 May 2005 02:54 (twenty years ago)
Well, he is isn't he? Why was this even controversial? I think Jagger himself would even admit it to a certain extent!
― J (Jay), Thursday, 12 May 2005 11:53 (twenty years ago)
― don, Friday, 13 May 2005 03:56 (twenty years ago)
A national dance craze in Ivory Coast has spawned a black market in treatments claiming to increase one's bottom size.
The dance in question has been inspired by DJ Mix and DJ Eloh's hit song Bobaraba, which means "big bottom" in the local Djoula language.
When it plays you can be guaranteed that the dance floor will be packed with people shaking their derrieres.
Even Ivorian footballers have adopted the moves and could be seen wiggling their bottoms in a curious on-pitch dance after each goal scored during the just-ended Africa Nations Cup.
However, doctors have warned of the possible dangers of some of the concoctions on sale.
While the dance has been embraced by both sexes, DJ Mix says it was inspired by women.
"We made it as a tribute to women, because African women are defined by the shape of their bottoms," he says.
"Move your bottom, jump, you see, it's alive."
Kady Meite, one of his dancers, says the song is a message for women.
"There are women today with large bottoms who are embarrassed, so it's to say don't be ashamed - be comfortable," she says.
The message seems to have been taken on board - so much so that some women are now going in search of a "bobaraba"
In the sprawling Adjame market just north of the city centre in Abidjan, women sell "bottom enhancers".
"You need to inject this liquid into your bottom once a day," says a market trader, showing a vial of coloured liquid labelled "Vitamin B12".
Each vial costs $2. The label claims it is made in China.
If you do not like the sound of injections, the same amount of money will also get you a small tub of cream.
There is no description of what the product contains or how to apply it; just the words "Big bottoms and big breasts", and two illustrating pictures.
Local gynaecologist Dr Marcel Sissoko is sceptical about the concoctions.
"This medicine could be dangerous for your health because we don't know the ingredients. It's being used without a medical prescription," he warns.
"The health ministry hasn't authorised this and doctors don't know what's in there, so there are risks."
At the Micronutrient Information Centre at Oregon State University in the United States, Dr Victoria Drake says she knows of no scientific evidence that vitamin B12 can be used to treat anything except vitamin B12 deficiency.
DJ Mix admits there is now a growing fashion for young women to show off their bottoms.
"If a woman goes dancing and wants to take two or three treatments, no problem," he says.
"But we don't say to girls that they must take treatment to enhance your bottom, no."
One man on the streets of Abidjan agreed: "Us boys, we appreciate these things because when women use the treatment it attracts us, but for women it's not good."
Most women I spoke to preferred to avoid the treatments.
"Me? I prefer to be natural so you can know your true value. It's best not to use these medicines. It's not good - it's actually very dangerous," one said.
Another woman was happy with what came naturally.
"I do the bobaraba because I already have a big bum. When I dance, everyone looks at me."
― Dom Passantino, Monday, 18 February 2008 21:46 (eighteen years ago)
There's always some "zany" story in the "most read articles" section of the bbc news site that gets emailed round my building. This was today's.
― Bodrick III, Monday, 18 February 2008 22:17 (eighteen years ago)
Bobaraba, which means "big bottom" in the local Djoula language.
Boboaraba means big bottom any any language!
― bendy, Tuesday, 19 February 2008 04:47 (eighteen years ago)
Does Donna's article on the Fall still exist anywhere?
― The Reverend, Tuesday, 19 February 2008 05:00 (eighteen years ago)
To finally answer the Rev, yes it does, and here it is:
Cerebral Caustic: a love story
By Donna E. Brown
Maybe I had something to prove, but I doubted it. Maybe I was trying to get back at my parents for dragging me away from NYC at age 4 and dumping the family unit in darkest South Carolina, where it’s always twenty years in the past. Whatever the reason, whatever the motivation, I fell in love with the wrong man. His name was Mark.
The year was 1985. College radio, irony and ethnicity weren’t yet hip, and the fact that my teachers were still referring to me as 'colored' wasn’t helping much either. I was a little black girl in a place and time when being naturally dark was looked down upon, an agnostic bookworm in a culture that mandated church attendance. Nobody liked me, but that was okay, because I didn’t like them either. I had my books and I had my music (but no boyfriends, thanks to insanely strict parents and a lack of dating material.)
Well, I thought I had music. 1985 was a lean period, a decidedly mean period. The University of South Carolina’s radio station wasn’t coming in too well, and if I heard the Thompson Twins in conjunction with "Donna likes this weird music" one more time, I would scream. There had to be someone out there who felt like I did, who would make Camden, S.C. bearable, who knew that nothing should be taken at face value and that what you thought was what mattered, not what everyone thought you ought to think. That was as novel (and convoluted) then as it is now.
One summer night I was watching MTV after my parents had gone to bed. It was a long dark night of the soul; I stayed awake out of sheer desperation, praying for something better. I’d rejected Simple Minds and Tenpole Tudor already. China Crisis and Scritti Politti were cute and lefty, but I wanted a man who’d "say what you mean and say it mean." And boom, there he was.
Mark E. Smith - the name alone made my heart wobble in a way that told me for sure that I was onto something. Not some pop tart name - it didn’t belong to a man who wore Yamamoto suits and bronzer. This was a man who lived. In the now, on the same earth as I did, thinking the same things I did, and saying them. Sort of. Everything I knew in my heart to be true despite it all, that I knew existed in the world beyond me, everything real, condensed into one word. Not even a word - a syllable. Specifically, a syllable-ah. A big ol’ "yeah RIGHT" to all that was bogus in music. That "ah" kept me going. Even if I had no idea what a Fall song was about, the verbal footnote was there. And if the song was relatively clear, the "-ah" became a rallying cry. "All those whose mind entitles themselves, and whose main entitle is themselves, shall feel the wrath of my bombast-ah!"
It mattered not that Mark E. was possibly the ugliest man who walked the planet. The sunken eyes in the ratlike face were raw and honest, and his words were his own. They didn’t have to rhyme. Hell, he couldn’t even sing, at least in a conventional sense. My parents were already horrified that I daydreamed about Bobby Gillespie instead of Bobby Brown (although their parallel drug-use paths eventually led them in the same direction.) I couldn’t let them know about this. Not just a scary-looking white man from England, this was a man whose deal with Motown was perma-scuppered when the Gordy minions heard the line in "The Classical": "where are the obligatory niggers?" Never mind "Take that, fuck-face-ah!" I was already going to hell. And all for a white boy who couldn’t sing!
But the weird thing was that MES made me feel better about being black. Before, I’d felt so uncomfortable in my small-town skin that I fell into self-loathing. I was bad at being a girl, and even worse at being black if it meant I had to go to church every day and listen to the Jets in order to feel at one with my people. But seeing a wiry ex-dockworker from Manchester spin tales that he didn’t expect anyone to understand, much less sing along with, made me breathe a little more easily. He did what he thought was right, took the rap, and remained steadfastly himself. And I thought, if he can do that, why can’t I?
And that, kids, is the (typically convoluted) story of how a white man helped me become a black woman.
The end-ah.
― Mackro Mackro, Monday, 17 March 2008 07:00 (eighteen years ago)
wtf? Deal with Motown?
― Bodrick III, Monday, 17 March 2008 10:27 (eighteen years ago)
Really thought that was gonna be a Hannah Pool piece.
― Dom Passantino, Monday, 17 March 2008 12:00 (eighteen years ago)
See, this joke was funny because Pool is also female and black.
― Mackro Mackro, Monday, 17 March 2008 17:16 (eighteen years ago)
Oh, I got that. But thanks!
― Morley Timmons, Monday, 17 March 2008 23:23 (eighteen years ago)
oh dom you minx
― M@tt He1ges0n, Monday, 17 March 2008 23:27 (eighteen years ago)
that is some nice writing by donna
― M@tt He1ges0n, Monday, 17 March 2008 23:32 (eighteen years ago)
thank you!
― Morley Timmons, Tuesday, 18 March 2008 00:11 (eighteen years ago)
what M@tt said! worth the month-long cliffhanger, even
― The Reverend, Tuesday, 18 March 2008 00:26 (eighteen years ago)