How To Rock Like A Black Feminist Critic

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This is another offshoot thread from the Afterthoughts thread from the EMP Pop Conference 2005 in Seattle. This is another panel that I felt had a lot of charge, anger, and frustration present. It didn't have the level of mystery and shock that parts of the Black Mass panel did (which had nothing to do with African Americans as far as a general theme, I should note.. "Black" refers to something else completely in that panel. See the Buddy Holocaust thread.), but there was a sense of struggle to find answers to very great and complex questions.. something that wasn't so much the case in last year's conference on "Magic Moments".

One of the most telling presenters was that of Laina Dawes. Her profile synopsis at the Conf is here. In brief, Dawes is an African Canadian freelance music journalist and critic based in Toronto. She's moderated a panel in the past on Bad Brains; and she's currently working on a documentary on African Canadian metal fans. Her piece was based on her work on this documentary, and her trials being an African North American fan of heavy metal music. She has a blog -- http://www.lainad.com -- that's worth a read.

One of the stories she told that had me between tears and wanting to insert and extract a fist in one's mouth was her trying to get seated at a recent Judas Priest show in Hamilton, ON. Basically, a guy yelled over at her friend "HEY, I GOTTA GET ME ONE'A THOSE!" Charming.

The other pieces by Daphne Brooks and Kandia Crazy Horse were amazing too, for completely different reasons: Brooks, for her succinct and well presented tackling with Kalef Sennah's Village Voice "rockism" piece from an African American feminine perspective; and Crazy Horse for her disorganized (due to recent domestic troubles back home, she claimed) yet extremely tense and entertaining frustration/venting about being a big fan/writer of southern rock.

I unfortunately missed most of Sonnet Retman's piece on Nona Hendryx's career, Labelle, etc. due to an extreme coughing fit, for which I had to leave the room and swallow a big hot cup of citrus tea to quench.

Anyway, the most emotional part of this panel was the Q&A afterwords. My friend, who goes by Morley Timmons here at ILX attended, and asked an EXCELLENT question that was a great followup to another question from an African American woman behind her who previous posed the concept of this endless cycle of having to reframe the rock critic canon to incorporate African Westerners' persectives: (Morley, at any point, is welcome to correct my paraphrasing of her question, of course):

"OK, So!.. I love The Fall. I hang out with a lot of guys who also like The Fall. Except they always ask me what I think about their song 'The Classical' and Mark E. Smith's line 'THIS IS THE HOME OF THE VAIN! THIS IS THE HOME OF THE VAIN! Where are the obligatory niggers? HEY THERE FUCKFACE!! HEY THERE FUCKFACE!!' These guys always ask me how I feel about this, and why I could stand to listen to the band who had such a song... Now, WHEN does this stop? When do I have to stop defending why I love The Fall, despite that lyric with the N-word in that song?"

It's an extremely telling question, and one that has no easy answers. Well, there are easy answers as to why she has to defend herself, but there are no easy answers as to help solve when this will eventually stop.. or, more to the point, when will some sort of methodology exist such that Morley can enjoy The Fall with friends without ever having to be confronted with that above issue over and over and over again.

There was another African American woman who asked a similar question after Morley did, but in the context of getting involved in independent film. She encounters the same roadblocks/annoyances.

For those of you who attended the conference who saw the panel, who didn't see the panel, and to those of you who didn't go to the conference at all... Thoughts, please. Perspectives from folks who are of African descent here would be highly appreciated as well -- for obvious reasons.

donut debonair (donut), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 17:09 (twenty years ago)

I wasnt there and dont have much to say right now, but I dont want to see this thread die so I thought I'd point out that K Sanneh's piece was in the New York Times, not the voice. :)

Lethal Dizzle (djdee2005), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 17:24 (twenty years ago)

This is really complicated. Because on the one hand I see where it is stupid for Morley to get asked this question over and over again. ON THE OTHER HAND, I think it's an important question (the broader one about music espousing ideas/POVs/beliefs in contrast to one's own--not the sillier one about the damn Fall line--AKA how do I reconcile my taste with my politics) that everyone should be asking so I am glad that someone is asking it (even if they are doing it in a way that reveals little imagination) and I can only hope that the reason they ARE asking it is because they are attempting to think about it themselves. I mean if I was Morley my response would be to turn the question IMMEDIATELY around and ask them how they were able to reconcile themselves to it.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 17:29 (twenty years ago)

I will certainly let Morley speak for herself in that regard, but being a close friend of hers, I get the impression she has done the very thing you suggested, Alex.. which is good. Then again, she may have become just plain tired of doing that.. for which I don't blame her in the least.

Again, i really should shut up and let Morley interject.

donut debonair (donut), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 17:38 (twenty years ago)

LD, thank you for the correction! oops.

donut debonair (donut), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 17:39 (twenty years ago)

Anyway, Kandia Crazy Horse said something about Mick Jagger which I unfortunatey can't remember, but it really riled up a lot of people in the audience, for better or worse. Crazy Horse was clearly saying this was her own opinion. But can someone remember what she said exactly about Mick Jagger?

donut debonair (donut), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 18:00 (twenty years ago)

haha is that mes query the indie rock equiv of 'did you know wayne williams?'

j blount (papa la bas), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 18:03 (twenty years ago)

?? blount, elaborate please?

donut debonair (donut), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 18:04 (twenty years ago)

The Fall thing is annoying because your friend's friends are making the assumption that being black precludes the ability to hear and interpret a lyric rationally (or else they are badly misreading it themselves).

The cited line is a smart one about the way vanity/power needs a concept of something beneath it, something subordinate. So yeah Smith could have said "This is the home of the vain, where is obligatory concept of the subordinate?" The actual line gets there much more deftly, and not without some discomfort which is appropriate.

But your friend's friends are basically saying "she's black, she just hears the word 'nigger' and that's it, all rational thought shuts down." Bah.

sans crit, Wednesday, 20 April 2005 18:14 (twenty years ago)

But your friend's friends are basically saying "she's black, she just hears the word 'nigger' and that's it, all rational thought shuts down." Bah.

Allow me to amend your quote: "she's black, she just hears the word 'nigger' from a band of white people doing rock music, and that's it, all rational thought shuts down."

I know this is what you meant, but I thought a direct amendment was necessary.

donut debonair (donut), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 18:24 (twenty years ago)

The cited line is a smart one about the way vanity/power needs a concept of something beneath it, something subordinate.

Funny you should mention it, there was a thread about this song last year, and lots of ilx0rs didn't seem to realize this. Proof!

Shatterproof Glass (dymaxia), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 18:29 (twenty years ago)

Donut, ... Mick Jagger? ... Donut, I wasn't there. I can only guess, but I don't know... not really ...

Who was it said Mick Jagger was an updated Zip Coon who went and hunted some cool in order to turn those lips into an asset?

bflaska, Wednesday, 20 April 2005 18:29 (twenty years ago)

This was the panel that I really, really considered going for. I know way too much about this unfortunately. This:
The reaction of a Black woman who attends metal concerts is akin to being a one-legged leper at the Oscars: Folks will stare at you in disbelief and after a second of silence, point and laugh. If you share your love of Slayer with your friends and family, get ready for such remarks that imply that you are somehow a traitor to your race. Some will befriend you because your perceived difference means that a great story will be told with you as the unlikely protagonist – i.e. freak.
is so OTFM it really hurts.

Candicissima (candicissima), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 18:30 (twenty years ago)

Candicissima, that brought back a painful memory of Arthur Lee at a surf movie in Pomona high school auditorium back in the '60s, surrounded by madras-plad blond gremmies. Please, can we make it stop?

bflaska, Wednesday, 20 April 2005 18:36 (twenty years ago)

(Just wanted to point out that while it probably isn't to the same degree, this happens to the guys too. I know it goes without saying but I wanted to join in because I'm feeling cranky today.)

The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 18:38 (twenty years ago)

Well okay, no one has ever pointed and laughed because I look like I'd stomp them...and probably would. But you are definitely one of the most visible people in the room unless it's very dark.

Candicissima (candicissima), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 18:41 (twenty years ago)

even when it's very dark. Dan, this shit happens to my little brother all the time-cf the Barenaked Ladies show I took him to where people would not stop calling him Snoop Dogg (and I'm not even getting into having to explain the Kraft Dinner thing to equally irritated black security staff whose mindset was 'white folk be wasting food').
Anyhow...Alex in SF makes the well-intentioned point that invariably begins with "Well, if I were you I would've..." But a)you're NOT b)the subjunctive thing gets really tiresome c)I ALREADY HAVE, YOU SELF-OBSESSED ASSHOLES. You don't know what you'd do because you've never had to think about it, and when you do, you immediately turn it around to make the issue reflect your difficulties as white folk, which is what happened at the panel when some dude reflected at length about that exact issue. Look, y'all had THE ENTIRE CONFERENCE in which to reflect about stuff that touches your 45-year-old balding gonna-give-me-shit-about-not-knowing-rap selves. GIVE ME A CHANCE TO TALK. IT"S MY FUCKING TURN, SO SHUT THE FUCK UP. More details if/when I'm clearheaded enough not to want to kill y'all

Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 19:11 (twenty years ago)

Does anyone want to summarize what the grappling with Sanneh's piece involved?

Also, this is semi-unrelated, but my (African-American) friend Janine sang "Brown Sugar" at a kareoke bar on Saturday, and after the song was over she came off the stage and said, "Holy shit, I just realized what that's about! You can't say that, English dude!"

Eppy (Eppy), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 19:16 (twenty years ago)

MT devastatingly OTM.

The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 19:18 (twenty years ago)

I was being facetious with the dark thing. They always know exactly where I am at all times.

Was anyone besides donut and MT even at the freaking panel? I'm dying to hear even the gist of the Nona Hendryx paper. That woman is awesome and my fictional band is partly named after her.

I have a feeling this thread is going to die a painful death. Or else, silently read but barely nothing added. ILM speechless? That's unheard of.

Candicissima (candicissima), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 19:21 (twenty years ago)

Haha well I am not going to say anything else.

Alex is embarrassed in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 19:22 (twenty years ago)

no no keep it up! i want MT to say more...

jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 19:23 (twenty years ago)

If the 25'n'balding honky squad ignore or fill up this thread its kind of double-edged sword thing. So instead I'll just note that I'd like to know for sure whether Lee was watching the film or was in a beach film. Surfing And Surfing Is!

miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 19:24 (twenty years ago)

I missed most of it--had friends' panels to see during that time--and only caught the tail end of Hendryx and the Q&A session. (I might've missed some of that, can't quite recall, but I think I saw the whole thing.) And the double-edged sword thing Miccio mentions is pretty true also.

Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 19:25 (twenty years ago)

Candicissima (and everyone) -- I am reading with great interest and would like to hear more, and personally I am quite moved by both the papers as described and the reactions so far, from you, Morley and Dan.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 19:25 (twenty years ago)

(meaning I'd prefer not to clutter the space w/my thoughts when it's obvious I have basically jackshit of interest to say on this topic, or at least compared to Morley, Candicissima, Dan, and others)

Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 19:27 (twenty years ago)

Dear Morley,

I admit I'm self-obsessed, but I am not bald. I didn't go to the the conference. But truly, I hope you clear your head and say what you need to.

bflaska, Wednesday, 20 April 2005 19:28 (twenty years ago)

so I wrote this article in the hope of avoiding reframing for another thirty seconds
http://www.firesideometer.com/cerebralCaustic.html

Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 19:28 (twenty years ago)

Interestingly enough, I've never felt out of place at a Cure concert, largely because everyone's too fixated on giggling at the Robert clones to talk about the short black guy doing the cabbage patch to "InBetween Days".

Conversely, back in my clubbing days I would tend to get mobbed by irritating E-heads who wanted to strike Benetton poses with me because we are all one! Argh, go away and let me dance (but leave your cute friend in the miniskirt, perv perv).

The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 19:31 (twenty years ago)

For real, Miccio, really interested? He like me was just a teenager bit with the surfbug in the audience with other teenagers bit with the surfbug watching the film. He wore green on green, and "jazz boots" (like what the Beatles started wearing later), he didn't dress like the other guys there, and when the lights went up between reels, yes, gremmies turned to stare.

(see the thread's going already -- )

bflaska, Wednesday, 20 April 2005 19:34 (twenty years ago)

Morley that article is GREAT.

Funniest bit:

My parents were already horrified that I dreamt about Bobby Gillespie rather than Bobby Brown (although their parallel drug-use paths eventually led them in the same direction).

Best bit:

But the thing was, Mark E. made me feel better about being black. Before, I’d felt so uncomfortable in my own small-town skin that I fell into self- loathing. I was bad at being a girl, and even worse at being black if it meant I had to go to church every day and listen to the Jets in order to feel at one with my people. But seeing a wiry ex-dockworker from Manchester spin tales that he didn’t expect anyone to understand, much less sing along with, made me breathe a little more easily.He did what he thought was right (although often it wasn’t), took the rap, and remained steadfastly himself. And I thought, If he can do that, why can’t I?

:-D

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 19:35 (twenty years ago)

yeah, even in Mpls (of all places!) during the mid-'90s rave had more black folks involved in it than most alt-rock shows did. and ditto on the Morley piece, obv.

Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 19:36 (twenty years ago)

Interestingly enough, I've never felt out of place at a Cure concert, largely because everyone's too fixated on giggling at the Robert clones to talk about the short black guy doing the cabbage patch to "InBetween Days".

Clearly the next step is the electric slide.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 19:36 (twenty years ago)

Haha MT, actually I kind of had a similar epiphany with both Prince and Robert Smith!(This influence was also the main reason I never dressed like either of them, because if it was all about me being me, why would I make myself look like either of them?)

The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 19:37 (twenty years ago)

besides, it was difficult to find Prince-wear in the burbs then (though I did make an ill-advised attempt at being Smith for Halloween in 1987. Thank Christ there are no pics)

Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 19:41 (twenty years ago)

Oh, if you'd lived near the Twin Cities, you would have found it much easier to find Prince-wear!

The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 19:42 (twenty years ago)

Morley, I missed the panel for similar reasons to Matos's, but 1. thanks for the kickass piece, and 2. I was about to ask whether you were being literal or metaphorical about the Fall's "deal with Motown" being "scuppered when Berry Gordy heard The Classical", but then I thought I'd do a quick check and found this: http://www.visi.com/fall/gigography/85thehit.html. What a head-spinnah of a story!

carl w (carl w), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 19:45 (twenty years ago)

oooh, forgot about that!

Black Chomsky (Donna Brown), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 19:45 (twenty years ago)

ps don't fuck with me vis-a-vis apocryphal Fall stories, mothahfuckah

Black Chomsky (Donna Brown), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 19:46 (twenty years ago)

'apocryphal'

Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 19:47 (twenty years ago)

The Fall Bible, with the Apocrypha
The Book of MARK

I. 1. In-ah the begin-NING-AH...

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 19:48 (twenty years ago)

haha Dan did you ever go to that Uptown store? w/all the purple velvet and $20 CDs (which you could get for $10.99 at Best Buy half a block away)?

Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 19:48 (twenty years ago)

Mark E Smith = not exactly reliable when it comes to stories like this though.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 19:49 (twenty years ago)

I went once, Matos; my reaction could best be summed up as "I bet this is what the inside of Prince's colon looks like."

Didn't stop me from spending $700 on concert tickets, concert t-shirts and paraphenelia when I got back to Boston. I miss my disposable income.

The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 19:53 (twenty years ago)

at least I don't have to worry about being called "boy" (except I get mistaken for a man at least twice a month, go figure)

Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 19:57 (twenty years ago)

(resumes shooting self in foot by listening to Dogs Die in Hot Cars CD)

Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 20:00 (twenty years ago)

Mark E Smith = not exactly reliable when it comes to stories like this though

Were there any other British bands similar to the Fall that were signed to Motown around this time? That would add some credence to Smith's story. Otherwise, I find it exceedingly dubious.

o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 20:05 (twenty years ago)

Oh yay...I went off to do work and the thread didn't die!

MT, that piece was great! And believe me, that growing up stuff was just as true in the late 90s as it was in 1985. (Someone needs to write some sort of paper about how afrocentric music/culture of the '90s made it finally okay to be darker than a paper bag -- it can be stiched together for sure.) I ended up lucky by growing up in NYC with parents who were listening to Living Colour, country, and Kraftwerk, among other things. So, me listening to something like Steely Dan was more notable for being elevator music-ish than strange. I used to go to South Carolina every summer and I'll never forget the joy I felt at running into this ultra punk rock black chick with neon yellow hairin Gr33nvill3. I always wanted to die my hair but couldn't bring myself to strip it.

Anyways...I love it at shows when everyone's so curious to know if I'm enjoying myself. Music? Live? What a new experience for me! I do need someone to explain those strange things happening on stage!

Candicissima (candicissima), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 20:06 (twenty years ago)

i like that dogs die in hot cars cd! but i am a 25-y/o bearded white dude.

jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 20:06 (twenty years ago)

Greenville! Excitement!
Ms. Crazy Horse totally mentioned the paper bag test. It's funny 'cause it's sad but it's true.
Go get a shave and a haircut, you Iron and Wine-looking motherfucker :)
Dogs Die in Hot Cars RULE. I take back what I said about foot-shooting. The black Canadian metal lady kept apologizing for offending people and being angry. I wanted to say she oughtn't but some white dudes kept talking. There's no 'sorry' in METAL!!!

Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 20:12 (twenty years ago)

That's a great piece, MT.

He wore green on green, and "jazz boots" (like what the Beatles started wearing later)

awesome!

miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 20:14 (twenty years ago)

There's no 'sorry' in METAL!!!

Hahahaha, awesome! I want that on a t-shirt! FWIW, Daphne and Kandia are both so fucking smart, it's wacky (and excellent).

Je4nne ƒury (Jeanne Fury), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 20:16 (twenty years ago)

Candicissima brings up country--that's a big thing right there (that I was surprised didn't get mentioned during Jon Caramancia's "Can Country and Hip-Hop Get Along?" presentation), country has a HUGE black audience, but there aren't really any major-label country performers who are themselves black.

Amy Phillips looked at me halfway through the Q&A and said, "Laina Dawes should be writing for Decibel." I was like, "Fuck yeah." So hopefully that'll happen.

Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 20:18 (twenty years ago)

Eek...my other posts was all typo crazy! Damn the boss for making me type fast before she comes...

x-post And yeah really she shouldn't have been apologizing for jack, especially being that it was "our" panel. She should've screamed "shut the fuck up, white man! You're oppressing me on my time!" I just think that would've been funny to hear (about).

Candicissima (candicissima), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 20:19 (twenty years ago)

(MT, you were way too polite during the Q&A, too--just yell stuff!)

Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 20:20 (twenty years ago)

country has a HUGE black audience, but there aren't really any major-label country performers who are themselves black.

Shifting gears a bit but I hope vaguely relevant, when I was visiting Shreveport two years back, my impression of the music base of the area was easily country/hip-hop/metal/'modern rock' straight up. I loved it!

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 20:21 (twenty years ago)

From my own experiences, it was never uncommon to see people (okay, women) of color at a Lunach!cks show and there's a bunch of big beefy Latino dudes at all the hardcore & metal shows I'm at. But then again, metal is pretty huge in Latin/South America. Straight-up rock and indie stuff seems to be the exception.

Je4nne ƒury (Jeanne Fury), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 20:27 (twenty years ago)

Twee kids be suckin'

Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 20:28 (twenty years ago)

Greenville! Excitement!

two words that i never imagine being together in the same sentence! ;-)

latebloomer: strawman knockdowner (latebloomer), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 20:30 (twenty years ago)

Greenville was alright because I didn't have to live there. It was definitely a step up from when the family lived in Travelers Rest a.k.a. the most boring place on Earth.

Candicissima (candicissima), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 20:32 (twenty years ago)

But you could rest. (Though were you travellers?)

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 20:39 (twenty years ago)

Oh totally. In the brook out back. That is, as long as a fox didn't eat me first.

Candicissima (candicissima), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 20:42 (twenty years ago)

I was at this panel, though I showed up late (missed most of Kandia). Prior to the conference, I exchanged e-mails with Laina Dawes and we agreed to each attend the other's talk. So there I was.

pdf (Phil Freeman), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 20:42 (twenty years ago)

If you want excitement, Easley's where it's at

Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 20:42 (twenty years ago)

That is, as long as a fox didn't eat me first.

That wacky Reynard!

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 20:45 (twenty years ago)

no, 'twould be Francis Marion, the Swamp Fox (uncontrollable regurgitation of SC history alert)

Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 20:47 (twenty years ago)

Hahah, I remember singing a song about him in first grade.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 20:49 (twenty years ago)

ps Donut was there when the infamous Thinking Fellers incident occurred, so I can/will commiserate with Candicissima's plight

Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 20:55 (twenty years ago)

If you want excitement, Easley's where it's at

Oh man...all we need now is somewhere here representing Greer. GSP! Holla!

But back to the topic at hand, black women rock...for real. And we like to listen to the music too. Minus "Pretty Fly For A White Guy", they're at least videos where the main event isnt a black ass.

Candicissima (candicissima), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 20:56 (twenty years ago)

http://icylady.skyblog.com/pics/685267.jpg

i'm sorry, but the phrase "black ass" made me look up pics of Pharrell and...wow.

miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 21:01 (twenty years ago)

Greer and Irmo used to kick our newspaper's ass regularly. Oh no, I've said too much

Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 21:02 (twenty years ago)

ps Anthony is 86'd from this discussion. As is Pharrell. I have spoken

Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 21:03 (twenty years ago)

but he's wearing a trucker hat! It kind of fits.

miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 21:04 (twenty years ago)

Greenville was alright because I didn't have to live there. It was definitely a step up from when the family lived in Travelers Rest a.k.a. the most boring place on Earth.

-- Candicissima (candicissim...), April 20th, 2005.

i actually dont live far from TR! i live in berea.

ok, back to the discussion. i'll step aside.

latebloomer: But when the monkey die, people gonna cry. (latebloomer), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 21:06 (twenty years ago)

ps Donut was there when the infamous Thinking Fellers incident occurred, so I can/will commiserate with Candicissima's plight

Oh, yes, the "So, I guess you don't 'dig' this type of music" dude at Berbati's Pan in Portland.

donut debonair (donut), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 21:32 (twenty years ago)

and he tried to pick up on you, too? I guess socially retarded is the new "hawt". I'm so glad I'm such a nerd, in that case.

donut debonair (donut), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 21:34 (twenty years ago)

That Rivers Cuomo is sexxeee. I want to do him

Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 21:36 (twenty years ago)

I guess socially retarded is the new "hawt".

AT LAST! Er, wait.

The guy was a dipstick = yay showers of abuse!

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 21:37 (twenty years ago)

GOLDEN showers of abuse

Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 21:38 (twenty years ago)

i am sad i missed this one! wtf was i sitting through.

strng hlkngtn, Wednesday, 20 April 2005 21:41 (twenty years ago)

One of the things about Laina Dawes's piece that is noteworthy that hasn't been mentioned yet on this thread is that -- yes, despite that awful, awful Judas Priest story -- Laina expressed outrage at being called a traitor by her black friends for liking metal... she mentioned specifically that her white friends never questioned her musical tastes, or never even made a big deal about it in a We-Love-Black-People-Dot-Com "Oh It's So Great That You're BRANCHING OUT Into Other Types Of Music Too!" kinda way.

Obviously, as MT and others have mentioned, certain white folks have a lot to answer for when they try to tackle someone of African descent liking music that is, for lack of a better term, "white/indie". But since I'm not black, I can't relate at all to being called a "traitor" just because of my musical tastes. I don't have any "white power" friends, as it turns out. (Oh darn) And if I do and I don't know it, I guess I haven't broken out enough Missy or Trick Daddy lines in their presence. So, hearing about this really turns my gut.

I think one thing that was mentioned as more of a makeshift than a full solution to this crisis (and yes, it is a crisis) is, cliché or not, start a community and keep together. I noticed Laina has a black blogger ring link at the bottom of one of her pages, which is probably worth investigating..

And goddamn, Morley's Mark E. Smith piece should not only be linked by almost every musical blog in the world as it is, but it should have been presented at that panel, and that piece would have gotten thunderous applause. I was just so fucking blown away by her piece. Seriously.

donut debonair (donut), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 21:48 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, Jess, wtf were you sitting through? Thanks for the drinks, though

Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 21:54 (twenty years ago)

haha he was sitting through the same thing as me since we're both friend w/Keith Harris, who was on opposite.

Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 21:56 (twenty years ago)

"These guys always ask me how I feel about this, and why I could stand to listen to the band who had such a song... Now, WHEN does this stop? When do I have to stop defending why I love The Fall, despite that lyric with the N-word in that song?"

I'm not sure if this will make sense, but this stood out for me. In that it was fans of the Fall asking this question! Apparently only white people can listen to this song, without black people around, so the supposedly offensive bits can be absorbed without guilt and without consideration.

That probably doesn't make a lick of sense, I'm not very lucid today...

Gear! (can Jung shill it, Mu?) (Gear!), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 22:04 (twenty years ago)

haha he was sitting through the same thing as me since we're both friend w/Keith Harris

http://www.camscottleisure.co.uk/entertainers_photographs/keith_harris_large.jpg

???

Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 22:06 (twenty years ago)

uh, no.

Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 22:13 (twenty years ago)

hand not up duck's arse shocker!

Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 22:14 (twenty years ago)

I'm not sure if this will make sense, but this stood out for me. In that it was fans of the Fall asking this question! Apparently only white people can listen to this song, without black people around, so the supposedly offensive bits can be absorbed without guilt and without consideration.

That probably doesn't make a lick of sense, I'm not very lucid today...

What you're getting at makes total sense, Gear!.. completely. What those dudes you are questioning are doing makes even less sense than you imply, though. I do think the offensive bits are absorbed with guilt, so much that only they're allowed to feel guilty about it and must "shelter the oppressees (or at least inform them of this band's shortcomings in a condescending way)"

donut debonair (donut), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 22:15 (twenty years ago)

right right, exactly!

Gear! (can Jung shill it, Mu?) (Gear!), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 22:17 (twenty years ago)

Morley and I have both talked about our love for The Fall, and the whole "The Classical" thing never came up. But if we were both forced to deal with it via a third party, is there any other assumption I could make other than "well, Morley loves The Fall, so she must have some opinion about it, or some way to interpret it, or deal with it and get over it, or in other words: none of your bizness, end of story, moving on shall we, etc."?

donut debonair (donut), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 22:20 (twenty years ago)

When I first heard about the Pavement "Major Leagues" single containing a cover of "The Classical", my eyebrows were immediately arched, and I admit thinking "Huh. I like this song, and I'd like to hear Pavement cover the song, but are they going to cover the song EN PURE, and use THAT line and all?"

And of course they didn't. What wusses. I guess they didn't want to risk being branded as racists, but shit, I mean, if you want to avoid such controversy, DON'T FUCKING COVER A CONTROVERSIAL FALL SONG! Cover "New Face In Hell" or "Before The Moon Falls" or "Various Times" or something else instead! Biggest chance to bring this issue some higher profile dialogue averted by wussiness. Good Times.

donut debonair (donut), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 22:27 (twenty years ago)

If I didn't have the attention span of a gnat, I could write pages and pages on the tragedy of The Oreo Syndrome, not just with respect to music but with respect to pretty much all facets of my life until I hit about 25. However, thanks to said attention span and not having a desire to rehash old wounds, I'll just give the following soundbyte:

Black people are capable of being just as fucked up and racist towards black people as white people are. This more than anything else really hammers home the concept of racial equality to me.

The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 22:35 (twenty years ago)

Afropunk

Lovelace (Lovelace), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 22:40 (twenty years ago)

Donut OTM

Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 22:51 (twenty years ago)

as is Dan, obv-I go through periods of blocking out and rehashing obsessively each old wound

Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 22:52 (twenty years ago)

"Cover "New Face In Hell"

haha - they already "covered" that one!

Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 20 April 2005 22:53 (twenty years ago)

how to rock like a black feminist critic = turn it into a Pavement thread!

Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 22:54 (twenty years ago)

when did it stop being "weird" and/or "wrong" for white people to like hip hop?

Lovelace (Lovelace), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 22:56 (twenty years ago)

(which is as apt a way to do it as any, really)

xpost

Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 22:56 (twenty years ago)

I don't understand the question - when was it ever "wrong" for white people to like hip-hop? Since the history of recorded music it's been "cool" for white folks to glom onto black music.

x-post

Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 20 April 2005 22:59 (twenty years ago)

as, apparently, black feminist rock criticism is a pale (hahaha) imitation of "regular" criticism, so Pavement is a pale imitation of the Fall xpost

Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 22:59 (twenty years ago)

when did it stop being "weird" and/or "wrong" for white people to like hip hop?

1988 (ie, the year "Parents Just Don't Understand" hit mainstream radio).

The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 23:01 (twenty years ago)

c'mon, that's hardly what I meant! (xpost fever!)

Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 23:02 (twenty years ago)

i don't understand the question - when was it ever "wrong" for white people to like hip-hop? Since the history of recorded music it's been "cool" for white folks to glom onto black music.

uh, I dont know under which rock you live but for a long time lots of whites who liked hip hop and lived the culture were often accused of wanting to be black and such things. you have never heard of this?!

Lovelace (Lovelace), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 23:02 (twenty years ago)

I know (xpost)

Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 23:05 (twenty years ago)

oh, I know you know. (I did forget about your antipathy for Pavement, though.)

Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 23:06 (twenty years ago)

I dunno, I grew up in rural Illinois and most people I knew at least had a passing interest in rap. I don't think anyone ever accused anyone of wanting to be black or that listening to rap was "wrong".

Gear! (can Jung shill it, Mu?) (Gear!), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 23:07 (twenty years ago)

I didn't mean to harp on the Pavement angle so much, but I think their covering the song and removing the controversial word/line is quite symbolic of things I don't like about "white/indie" in the context of this discussion.. i.e. higher profile bands covering classic (no pun intended) songs by seminal bands but whitewashing them (again, no pun intended) in the process, and erasing those little blemishes of history. And it's pretty analogous, too, to rock criticism as Morley hinted above. Anyway...

uh, I dont know under which rock you live but for a long time lots of whites who liked hip hop and lived the culture were often accused of wanting to be black and such things. you have never heard of this?!

"were"? Lovelace, it's happening in both white and black populations today.

donut debonair (donut), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 23:08 (twenty years ago)

nuh-uh, I love Pavement. I'm just aware of their shortcomings, is all, same as all of my other relationships

Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 23:08 (twenty years ago)

"for a long time lots of whites who liked hip hop and lived the culture were often accused of wanting to be black and such things. "

and this is relevant how? I just don't see your point. being accused of "wanting to be black" is such a loaded accusation, one rooted in racism to begin with, and is an accusation that was certainly present in previous periods (jazz, r&b) and is probably *still* prevalent today... (so the answer to your question is "never", since people are still racist, I guess?) But if you're trying to draw some parallel between white hip hop fans and black heavy metal fans, I think you're venturing into very, very treacherous waters.

x-x-post

Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 20 April 2005 23:09 (twenty years ago)

right, "antipathy" was the wrong word (go editor!)--meant it in a more nuanced way than that. in relation to the Fall, I mean.

Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 23:09 (twenty years ago)

by that I don't mean it never happens, but I never felt a pervasive pressure to ditch the rap and turn to Queensryche. xpostsss

Gear! (can Jung shill it, Mu?) (Gear!), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 23:10 (twenty years ago)

A kid can have his EPMD and his Empire, for fuck's sake.

Gear! (can Jung shill it, Mu?) (Gear!), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 23:11 (twenty years ago)

I never felt a pervasive pressure to ditch the rap and turn to Queensryche

Too bad because you missed out on OPERATION MINDCRIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIME. Or did you?

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 23:12 (twenty years ago)

"A kid can have his EPMD and his Empire, for fuck's sake."

duh

Lovelace (Lovelace), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 23:12 (twenty years ago)

I never was much into Mindcrime, Ned; I much preferred the atmospheric urban sprawl of the aforementioned Empire. "Jet City Woman" and all that fun stuff.

Gear! (can Jung shill it, Mu?) (Gear!), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 23:13 (twenty years ago)

well now I've destroyed this otherwise fine thread.

Gear! (can Jung shill it, Mu?) (Gear!), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 23:14 (twenty years ago)

we need to get Laina D in here to discuss the finer points of the Queensryche ouvre, clearly. then again, I'm not sure if that's one of the metal bands she cares about or not.

Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 23:15 (twenty years ago)

"and this is relevant how? I just don't see your point. being accused of "wanting to be black" is such a loaded accusation, one rooted in racism to begin with, and is an accusation that was certainly present in previous periods (jazz, r&b) and is probably *still* prevalent today... (so the answer to your question is "never", since people are still racist, I guess?) But if you're trying to draw some parallel between white hip hop fans and black heavy metal fans, I think you're venturing into very, very treacherous waters."

what Im saying is this goes both ways, but obviously worse for black people(this is coming from a black guy who has gone to loads of indie concerts by myself because all my friends hate guitar music...unless its by Jimi of course!).

Lovelace (Lovelace), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 23:16 (twenty years ago)

well I guess an extension of this is who's saying it's "wrong" or "weird" for white people to be into rap? cuz that seems to me like an accusation more likely to come from white people than black people (ie, fear of the "other", circle the wagons mentality)

Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 20 April 2005 23:29 (twenty years ago)

As a white guy who was told by my grandfather, just years before his death, upon my arrival back to visit him and my folks in L.A. blasting some CD really loud in the rental car just before parking it, the first thing he told me as I entered the house was (after a year of not seeing each other) "Why do you play thee music that thee NEGROES leesseen to?"

White families very much are trying to keep their kids from "going black", which surely gets passed along to friends in school, to this day. It's not universal, but it exists.

donut debonair (donut), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 23:36 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, I never had anything like that from my family unless it was so incredibly subtle I missed it. Lucked out there!

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 23:37 (twenty years ago)

Every suburban white family who's addicted to the nightly news to reassure that they don't live in those "ghettos" to thread.

donut debonair (donut), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 23:39 (twenty years ago)

On second thought, keep them out. Shut em down.

donut debonair (donut), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 23:40 (twenty years ago)

right, but the few black people that crossed my whitebread path as a young'un didn't have any such reservations about me being into hip-hop - more often than not it was an icebreaker, a mutual point of interest. Whereas a black guy into indie or metal or whatever is obviously more likely to get shit from BOTH sides of the color line.

x-post

Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 20 April 2005 23:41 (twenty years ago)

altho I dunno, I can only assume if I was doing the whole "Malibu's Most Wanted" routine reactions would've been a little different.

Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 20 April 2005 23:41 (twenty years ago)

I guess it depends on where you live. Seattle is hardly an example of white/black unity, but I've seen a lot of black skater kids wearing ICP, AFI, and Korn t-shirts on the buses going to and from work.. and they're not alone. they're hanging out with their buddies and having fun. Are they all black? No. But are they traumatized? At times during school, I'd guess, but not most of the time. shrug. Does a white guy exclusively into hip-hop get an analogous treatment? Maybe. Maybe not.

I grew up as a totally socially inept sheltered white boy (near Malibu, in fact!) who was afraid to admit I listened to disco lest I get beat up by all the Grateful Dead/Led Zep/Pink Floyd loving white junior high kids. And if you know L.A., it's easy to grow up in L.A. and avoid contact with black people if you live in the "right" neighborhood, although you might have to drive through that "bad" part of town due to a freeway detour, which "of course makes you a target", etc.

donut debonair (donut), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 23:48 (twenty years ago)

At all of the 'indie' shows I've been to, people have been nothing but nice. I've met tons of cool people, and never was my skin color an issue.. or, I should say, they never made it seem as if it was. Honestly, I think people dwell on things like this far too much... you're going to a concert to listen to music.. who gives a rats ass of you're the 'only black person' or 'only white person' there. Does it matter? Really, race isn't an issue with me.. maybe I'm just naive, but I never really feel out of place (except at a NIN party I went to, but that's because they were all 'gothy'). I'd say that the most racial flack I've gotten has been from other black people, oddly enough. "Why do you listen to white people music? lololol".. but it's never hateful, they're just caught off guard when I'm blasting Lightning Bolt out of my speakers :-p Then again, I'm from New York City...

The Brainwasher (Twilight), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 23:52 (twenty years ago)

Things like Afropunk really get on my nerves, however. It's THEIR fault for being so fucking self-conscious. I doubt anyone has ever came up to them and said "What are you doing here, nigger, this is a white's only show!".. know what I mean? It's like they're creating this big thing out of a practical non-issue.

The Brainwasher (Twilight), Wednesday, 20 April 2005 23:55 (twenty years ago)

One of the stories she told that had me between tears and wanting to insert and extract a fist in one's mouth was her trying to get seated at a recent Judas Priest show in Hamilton, ON. Basically, a guy yelled over at her friend "HEY, I GOTTA GET ME ONE'A THOSE!" Charming.

being from hamilton, ontario -- the land of the abandoned steel factory, malls, crack-cocainea, mysterious blood trails and heavy metal ... the key words are Hamilton, ON .. if you show up in Hamilton, much less a Judas Priest show in Hamilton, what is said to you shouldn't be shocking, much less end up in an analogy ....

doomie x, Wednesday, 20 April 2005 23:59 (twenty years ago)

If I didn't have the attention span of a gnat, I could write pages and pages on the tragedy of The Oreo Syndrome, not just with respect to music but with respect to pretty much all facets of my life until I hit about 25. However, thanks to said attention span and not having a desire to rehash old wounds, I'll just give the following soundbyte:

Black people are capable of being just as fucked up and racist towards black people as white people are.

Gotta OTM this while I pop in for a min. I got a Man Man show to go to, y'all! Yay tokenism!

Anyways, did anyone else see the Afropunk movie? It was really great -- especially since everyone had the "I'm the only black kid I know that likes punk" thing when their stories were all the same. They even addressed the to do the universal black acknowledgement/ignore the other black person at a show because I don't want to have to do that conundrum. I even liked that they had the one girl who all "I don't ever date/like black men because they can't accept I like punk..and my mom says their woman beaters!" which stunned me into silence and you know probably wouldn't have made it in another movie.

holy xpost! Ooooh, Brainwasher...you must be living in a dreamworld. Sorry. Especially since that was the last thing that movie was about.

Candicissima (candicissima), Thursday, 21 April 2005 00:03 (twenty years ago)

Actually, I don't mean dreamworld. Everyone's experiences are different. What better to illustrate that we're all not the same. I'll admit that I've never gotten the "white only" show thing, but I have gotten the double take -- and probably will tonight -- wearing a Man Man t-shirt and being in the thick of it and knowing all the words. The subtle "what are you doing here" look as if I got lost on my way to the projects and detoured into Sin-E to check out the decor.

Candicissima (candicissima), Thursday, 21 April 2005 00:06 (twenty years ago)

Well, I haven't actually seen the movie, I was just judging off of the trailer.

The Brainwasher (Twilight), Thursday, 21 April 2005 00:07 (twenty years ago)

*multiple erasings of knee-jerk responses*

Maybe you should go see the movie before you criticize it then.

Candicissima (candicissima), Thursday, 21 April 2005 00:12 (twenty years ago)

(meaning I'd prefer not to clutter the space w/my thoughts when it's obvious I have basically jackshit of interest to say on this topic, or at least compared to Morley, Candicissima, Dan, and others)

Nevertheless i have to say it... GREAT THREAD and thanks!

jed_ (jed), Thursday, 21 April 2005 00:52 (twenty years ago)

note on nona hendryx: the paper was one of the most academic papers of the whole conference and thusly a little impenetrable. her main thesis was that nona doesn't get her due in the rock canon even though she should, w/sub-thesis of exploring nona's work as deconstructing rock w/avant-garde haunting vocal runs and Laurie Anderson. I think. The dense language of the academy threw me off her scent.
Her love was clear, though, and she played great clips.

shepdini

LET'S GET VISCERAL, Thursday, 21 April 2005 01:05 (twenty years ago)

too bad she couldn't get off her white ass to play them, instead asking Daphne to do it. If y'all can overthink Nona Hendryx enough to make he music that un-understandable (I blame "Heathers") you can certainly overthink the implications of being the only white woman on a panel about black rock crit enough to come to the conclusion that you should probably play your own damn clips, Miss Ann

Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Thursday, 21 April 2005 02:40 (twenty years ago)

the fall thing re "the classical" is also just such a "use other ideas plz" thing in terms of how it's just one of those things about the fall that everyone seems to know and reference.

i mean the assumptions that go with that sort of discussion make it doubly obnoxious too, but even on its own.

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Thursday, 21 April 2005 03:32 (twenty years ago)

That everyone in your insular world seems to know and reference, maybe. Again, we are discussing ideas that have their origin in places other than received traditions of indie lore. "Use other ideas plz" should start with you, apparently

Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Thursday, 21 April 2005 03:39 (twenty years ago)

or at least "elaborate on your ideas, plz". Sterling, I have no idea what you're getting at, or how it's relevant.

donut debonair (donut), Thursday, 21 April 2005 04:10 (twenty years ago)

"These guys always ask me how I feel about this, and why I could stand to listen to the band who had such a song... Now, WHEN does this stop? When do I have to stop defending why I love The Fall, despite that lyric with the N-word in that song?"

I have fielded this same question countless times myself with regards to the line in "Whores" by Jane's Addiction when Perry sings:

"Way down low where the streets are littered, I
find my fun with the freaks and the niggers".

It was always fairly obvious to me that there wasn't any racist intent and it never really bothered me. My white friends were always much more sensitive to that word than I was.

J-rock (Julien Sandiford), Thursday, 21 April 2005 04:23 (twenty years ago)

Perry Farrell is an idiot. Oops, I said that out loud

Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Thursday, 21 April 2005 04:34 (twenty years ago)

You'd be hard pressed to find anyone around here who would disagree with you on that, even among Jane's Addiction fans; but that's hardly the point and they were still a great band.

J-rock (Julien Sandiford), Thursday, 21 April 2005 06:51 (twenty years ago)


Whoa!

It is fucking amazing to see this thread! Thank you Michaelangelo for letting me know this post was up, and yes, I gotta get my butt in gear and check out the Decibel folks.

A couple of things: I should be smacked for not picking up a Decibel mag when I was in Borders downtown in Seattle - since I realized the next day that we don't get it in Canada - or at least I assumed, since I read alot of metal magazines and have never seen it - but on the other hand, if there is a Canadian Black-Bredren who is writing for it, then I'd better go searching for a copy....

As all EMP presenters know, we didn't have enough time to really dig into our presentations - I am going to post my "academic" - IE: presentation that includes no profanity - on my site soon. This is such a interesting topic and a touchy one, and I have been really excited to receive so much positive responses after the panel. Oh,and yes, I made a huge error in apologizing - Mark Anthony Neal told me after the panel that I really am Canadian because I apologize too much!

The Afropunk website, at least to myself, is such an interesting site. I don't believe that it is a bunch of Black folks complaining for nothing: It seems to be more about discussing equal inclusion into the punk scene as legitimate players and fans.I have attended hundreds of punk / grunge / metal shows, and while you deal with dirty looks, guffaws of laughter and the occasional finger pointing, I'm still alive and still going.You just shouldn't have to worry about getting 'picked on' or having your life threatened when you want to go see a show - but you shouldn't have to avoid going, either.

By the way, is anyone here a No Means No fan? There this legendary prog/punk band from Vancouver who are totally amazing, and probably have one of the best bassists I've ever heard......

Holla!

Laina Dawes, Thursday, 21 April 2005 10:10 (twenty years ago)

There's another thread on the board about Nomeansno that was recently revived because of the current Nomeansno tour. I like what I've heard of them but it's been a long time since I've paid attention to them.

The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 21 April 2005 10:38 (twenty years ago)

As an African-American who loves him some rock (indie and otherwise), I really wanted to take part in this thread. But what little I've read here is so vitrolic that I'll save my comments for another time/place.

Raymond Cummings (Raymond Cummings), Thursday, 21 April 2005 11:02 (twenty years ago)

Oh come on. Get off your cross. If anything, you should especially post something besides "I'm going to be passive-aggressive and crab in a barrelish" if you think we've derailed it so.

Candicissima (candicissima), Thursday, 21 April 2005 11:24 (twenty years ago)

Heavens, Raymond, yer a cool dude who writes well, a rarity in this universe. Chime in! :-)

Oh,and yes, I made a huge error in apologizing - Mark Anthony Neal told me after the panel that I really am Canadian because I apologize too much!

Hahah! National stereotypes ahoy!

And NoMeansNo are the ultraspiff. :-) Most of the AMG reviews are from me, I think.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 21 April 2005 11:42 (twenty years ago)

morely, i just mean that rougly every other article i read on the fall (maybe a slight exxag, but not too much) brings up how problematic that line is. (perhaps i should have said "use other facts plz" instead.)

i mean yeah, that line is worth dealing with, but it absolutely becomes one of the little convo checklist things to say about them, to some degree regardless of the race of the participants in the conversation?

& maybe this is not a "my indie world" thing so much as a not knowing *enuf* about fall fan types and their discussions, where i'd imagine it comes up slightly less, given that real fall fans would assume it was a known issue more amongst themselves?

& maybe i'm being dim here, but if we're talking about ppl. who know jack-all about the fall, aren't we already talking about a relatively small segment of the u.s. population?

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Thursday, 21 April 2005 12:22 (twenty years ago)

I've never (preILM at least) known a Fall fan type to bring it up

A Viking of Some Note (Andrew Thames), Thursday, 21 April 2005 12:25 (twenty years ago)

You guys are NoMeansNo fans? Awesome! They were big for me.

FWIW, the most racially mixed musical events I've been to have all been goth nights.

Eppy (Eppy), Thursday, 21 April 2005 13:50 (twenty years ago)

I like NoMeansNo v. much because for all the random 'eighties punk' associations they're clearly so much more than that and have been -- their stuff bears relistening because it's not *just* the mundanity that so much of their contemporaries did. (See also: the Minutemen.)

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 21 April 2005 13:53 (twenty years ago)

(Don't want to hijack this thread, but...)

Yeah, as I just posted in the NoMeansNo thread, "Wrong" would fit in really well today, except it would be called "post-punk." They have a real sense of humor and a real sense of poetry and a real sense of melody and a real sense of volume. The arrangements still blow my mind.

Gonna go listen to that right now...

I'm jealous you get to see them live, Laina! I'm gonna miss them in Chi-town by like 3 days...

Eppy (Eppy), Thursday, 21 April 2005 14:12 (twenty years ago)

I've seen NoMeansNo two times.. back in 1991 (when Andy Kerr was in the band, and they were a three piece, and later on for the "Mr. Happy" tour when they debuted as a live four piece + Hanson Brothers encore..) great band indeed. I hope to see them in the next couple of weeks myself. It will have been 11 years since i last saw them.

ANYWAY... I asked WAAAAY upthread what Kandia Crazy Horse said upthread about Mick Jagger and then bflaska posted this:

Who was it said Mick Jagger was an updated Zip Coon who went and hunted some cool in order to turn those lips into an asset?

And yup, that was Kandia Crazy Horse who said that. Do I agree with her? Not sure, as I've honestly never explored the Stones that much to weigh in, but I must give her credit for such a great line.

THAT SAID, there was another panel -- the Lips panel -- where there was a piece specifically about the Rolling Stones logo and those lips.. so it's possible that this quote technically came as a reference in THAT presentation, and not from the How To Rock Like A Black Feminist panel, directly. I wish I had a digital tape recorder throughout the weekend.

Crazy Horse also said a very amusing yet endearing thing about The Black Crowes. She talked about how much she loved their music, because they just, well, broke it down, as far as what she wanted out of their music -- specifically the groove/dance element. She was especially thankful about the hymn reference in their sophomore album titled, as she felt the hymn was a very important concept in the southern music she liked, and didn't what that history erased. Their music spoke to her, and shook her ass -- although she specifically noted that Chris Robinson himself didn't endear her.. in fact, I think she said something about "ew, i would never want to be anywhere near that skinny ass! But the Crowes' music ruled me" or something like that. :)

donut debonair (donut), Thursday, 21 April 2005 16:31 (twenty years ago)

(when are you coming to chicago, eppy? e-mail me!)

jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 21 April 2005 16:36 (twenty years ago)

Their music spoke to her, and shook her ass -- although she specifically noted that Chris Robinson himself didn't endear her.. in fact, I think she said something about "ew, i would never want to be anywhere near that skinny ass! But the Crowes' music ruled me" or something like that. :)

A most sensible judgment.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 21 April 2005 16:39 (twenty years ago)

Sterling, you are missing the point-ah. This is not about the Fall, nor is it about how much you know about the Fall. It is about ME. That's right. ME and MY discomfort in a situation such as this, in which I must explain why I listen to music that is so problematic. BECAUSE I like the Fall this issue is quite common for ME, as a BLACK FALL FAN (possibly THE black Fall fan). I don't give a FUCK HOW OFTEN you've heard this story because it's NOT ABOUT YOU

Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Thursday, 21 April 2005 17:43 (twenty years ago)

Things like Afropunk really get on my nerves, however. It's THEIR fault for being so fucking self-conscious. I doubt anyone has ever came up to them and said "What are you doing here, nigger, this is a white's only show!".. know what I mean? It's like they're creating this big thing out of a practical non-issue.

They don't have to be told that to their faces. They can see the white kids sending quizzical looks their way. At least this is how it was back in the 80s - I don't go to punk shows nowadays.

I mean, please. I'm sorta white and I've seen and heard plenty.

I love the idea that someone has to use the n-word in order to be a racist or to make a black person feel uncomfortable.

Shatterproof Glass (dymaxia), Thursday, 21 April 2005 19:08 (twenty years ago)

Do black Minor Threat fans have to explain themselves all the time re: "Guilty Of Being White", I wonder?

donut debonair (donut), Thursday, 21 April 2005 19:14 (twenty years ago)

morely, i just mean that rougly every other article i read on the fall (maybe a slight exxag, but not too much) brings up how problematic that line is. (perhaps i should have said "use other facts plz" instead.)

i mean yeah, that line is worth dealing with, but it absolutely becomes one of the little convo checklist things to say about them, to some degree regardless of the race of the participants in the conversation?

& maybe this is not a "my indie world" thing so much as a not knowing *enuf* about fall fan types and their discussions, where i'd imagine it comes up slightly less, given that real fall fans would assume it was a known issue more amongst themselves?

Sterling, with all due respect, please give up, as far as this line of thinking goes.

I've talked about The Fall with friends for the last 20 years, and I count the number of times on almost two hands where "The Classical"'s line came up in conversation.

Convo check list? Are you KIDDING me?

& maybe i'm being dim here, but if we're talking about ppl. who know jack-all about the fall, aren't we already talking about a relatively small segment of the u.s. population?

So, basically "shut up and relax because it's a relatively obscure band"?

I really hope you're just stating REALLY badly some other sentiments you had in mind, because you're essentially fortifying Morley's anger and proving her raison d'etre.

donut debonair (donut), Thursday, 21 April 2005 19:19 (twenty years ago)

It's true. I didn't think I could get any more angry. Shaddup, whitey

Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Thursday, 21 April 2005 19:57 (twenty years ago)

Also, you spelled my fake name wrong

Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Thursday, 21 April 2005 19:57 (twenty years ago)

Er. We know that Sterling isn't white, yes?

The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 21 April 2005 19:57 (twenty years ago)

Well, I know he isn't making sense right now.. which I find a little odd and disappointing.

donut debonair (donut), Thursday, 21 April 2005 20:00 (twenty years ago)

"Do black Minor Threat fans have to explain themselves all the time re: "Guilty Of Being White", I wonder?"

I'm sure they did back in the day.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 21 April 2005 20:02 (twenty years ago)

er, no, so my bad, but really, I'm just throwing that word around willy-nilly these days

Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Thursday, 21 April 2005 20:03 (twenty years ago)

ok i think i'm just expressing some stuff really unclearly here? i thought i was sort of underlining the point w/r/t the fall rather than arguing against morley or trying to dismiss her.

i may be walking into far more hot water on this with the next point and offbase insofar as i seem to have run into discussion of the "the classical" story more than most (and i don't even talk about the fall that much) but there's something about what stories get retold and considered significant that matters. like the whole "classical" story is also in part the "how the fall were almost signed to motown" story and what it sort of implies in some tellings (tho clearly not explicitly or always) is "the motown reps were too dim/sensitive to see the *irony* in that line, but i, the discriminating listner, am *not*." with all the further subtext therein (in part being m.e.s. is too cool/controversymongering, etc. to be p.c. maaan).

the actual mes interview that gives source to this story, best i can tell, doesn't actually say that this *was* the reason motown didn't sign -- it's just idle speculation on mes' part. but it makes a better story the more that it's embelished, and the more all that subtext is drawn out.

c.f. the discussion at the bottom of the stylus review here: http://www.stylusmagazine.com/review.php?ID=2751

[i.e. what makes this story "fun"?]

(& yes this isn't rilly about morley's q. anymore, but me just taking the conversation somewhere other, sorry.)

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Friday, 22 April 2005 02:19 (twenty years ago)

" 'Fun' "? Sweet Jesus. I give up. As if I didn't have enough to contend with, you're making me almost not like the Fall anymore

Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Friday, 22 April 2005 02:35 (twenty years ago)

What's the point that you are belaboring here, Sterling? Start a Fall thread. Sheesh.

How to rock like a black feminist critic: be prepared to listen to a lot of horseshit.

Candicissima (candicissima), Friday, 22 April 2005 02:46 (twenty years ago)

Oh, I'm all set, then. Thanks :)

Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Friday, 22 April 2005 02:53 (twenty years ago)

Roll on the Fall Peel Sessions box! Now, let's talk about loud evil/wonderful music in general that Candicissima and Morley rock out to. (Actually, C., what DO you rock out to?)

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 22 April 2005 02:55 (twenty years ago)

Rock? What's that? I thought this was the Ying Yang Twins "Wait" Appreciation thread?

Candicissima (candicissima), Friday, 22 April 2005 02:59 (twenty years ago)

she made a detour on the way to Crunkworld

Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Friday, 22 April 2005 03:01 (twenty years ago)

Great article, Morley.

efil4zelffor (deangulberry), Friday, 22 April 2005 03:07 (twenty years ago)

Astounding! (xpost)

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 22 April 2005 03:08 (twenty years ago)

Uh no the FUN of the story is what a poor choice "Hex" was (prospective deal was POSTHex) to send to Motown. Anyone thinking the Mtown execs were dumb/oversensitive for not signing them (since it would've been a stupid move anyway after all) is a cock. But yeah, enough of that.

A Viking of Some Note (Andrew Thames), Friday, 22 April 2005 03:09 (twenty years ago)

MT: "fun" isn't my words -- its how the poster to the comments section in the stylus review i linked introduces the story.

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Friday, 22 April 2005 03:17 (twenty years ago)

Sure. Any other passive-agressive last words from anyone re: "Hex"?

Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Friday, 22 April 2005 03:19 (twenty years ago)

Black people thinking other black people are acting white for liking rock and/or not liking hip-hop music is always ironic since rock has always been sort of an outgrowth of lots of black music and hip-hop attitudes (and many rock ones) are outgrowths of white redneck culture.

Cunga (Cunga), Friday, 22 April 2005 03:44 (twenty years ago)

o man now i get to say fuck you! DON'T GO TALKING TRASH BOUT REDNECKS NOW

j blount (papa la bas), Friday, 22 April 2005 06:48 (twenty years ago)

jk

j blount (papa la bas), Friday, 22 April 2005 06:49 (twenty years ago)

"jew on a motorbike! jew on a motorbike!" vs. "obligatory niggers"

Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 26 April 2005 18:55 (twenty years ago)

"jew on a motorbike" may be more "fun". Also see "Barmy" and every other Fall song, really. Sigh.

Morley Timmons (Donna Brown), Tuesday, 26 April 2005 22:05 (twenty years ago)

Damn, we're still talking about the Fall here? People, people...

Any thoughts on the Source petition?

Candicissima (candicissima), Tuesday, 26 April 2005 22:55 (twenty years ago)

My thought: sign it. I did.

Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Tuesday, 26 April 2005 22:56 (twenty years ago)

David Mays is evidently a fuckhead

miccio (miccio), Tuesday, 26 April 2005 22:56 (twenty years ago)

Signed it.

donut debonair (donut), Tuesday, 26 April 2005 23:01 (twenty years ago)

Signed.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 27 April 2005 00:12 (twenty years ago)

signed!

Gear! (can Jung shill it, Mu?) (Gear!), Wednesday, 27 April 2005 00:14 (twenty years ago)

It's so right that even Raymond Scott signed it. No, really.

ng, Wednesday, 27 April 2005 00:26 (twenty years ago)

yeah, like six times. ditto Dave Mays.

Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 27 April 2005 00:40 (twenty years ago)

I did sign it and in retrospect, I meant to note the lawsuit itself and the response. "Her suit is totally ridiculous because she's a rapper-loving whore!" I mean, just wow.

Candicissima (candicissima), Wednesday, 27 April 2005 03:30 (twenty years ago)

Stuff like that almost beggars description, to be frank. You wanna look at the guys and say, "Did you even hear yourselves?"

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 27 April 2005 03:38 (twenty years ago)

The saddest part is that for them and probably a significant chunk of people, those alleged affairs have more weight than the suit. If the genders were reversed, they would be crucified for saying that (see that crazy story from a few weeks back over the female bureau chief of the Times I believe in Iraq being bounced because she allegedly told reporters' wives they were having affairs).

Do male critics/fans even have the problem of going up to opposite sex musicians and having things so clouded because they are convinced you obviously want them? There's this band I became really close with via my rabid fangirl raves on my blog and at one point I had to step away because it became "what exactly do you think is going on here? I'm not your fucking Band Aid!"

Candicissima (candicissima), Wednesday, 27 April 2005 03:52 (twenty years ago)

Yeeps! Talk about a crazy view of the situation...

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 27 April 2005 03:57 (twenty years ago)

Completely unrelated, but I see on her blog that former Vibe editor Danyel Smith is doing a fiction reading in NyC.

"I'm a part of a reading on Thursday at 7:30 p.m., Room 555, Lerner Hall, on the Morningside Campus of Columbia University. It's sponsored by OUR WORD, the Columbia School of the Arts' Organization for Writers of Color. It's the fifth annual reading, for second-year MFA students -- Jennifer Assef, Meredith Broussard, Diana Marie Delgado, Gail Dottin, Aisha D. Gayle, Tania James, and Rhena Tantisunthorn -- but they invite MFA students from around NYC, so there's also Mohan Sikka and Victoria Bond of Brooklyn College, and myself and Steve Caratzas from The New School. If you're uptown, do stop by. I don't even know for how long we get to read, maybe 5-7 minutes? Dunno. But I'll be reading from Bliss and hopefully a tiny bit from More Like Wrestling. And so it begins!"

steve-k, Wednesday, 27 April 2005 12:17 (twenty years ago)

Meredith Broussard???? I wonder if that's the same woman I went to college with... (not that she'd remember me if it was)

The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 27 April 2005 12:36 (twenty years ago)

Someone asked today why I never visit/post here...S'pose this was a good time/thread to have a look in. Frankly not amused by some things said here...but to each their own. My best friend LOVES The Fall and yet I have never heard lick one (that I recall) --- will definitely bring up this much-cited lyric when I see her next week. She also LOVES Dylan who I did target, as well as Ole Liverlips. Yes: I said he was a late modern Zip Coon etc...and have said a good deal more in the past, mostly to/in scribbling about Stanley Booth. No need to regurgitate here, as some of the most biting's arrayed on the "Nets" for all to see. I do love the Crowes (no secret) but I never said Chris was a stank ass...What I said was when I first encountered the Otis cover, I was angered at their audacity..."Love & Theft," if you will. Also that CR is very intelligent, sharp about music, and a lot more diverse singer than folk ever give him credit for.

Some statements in this thread prove there's a need for far more such panels. [and speaking of The Source miasma: things have obviously devolved to such a state b/c my self-hating homeboy from Chocolate City foolishly decided to enact "Lott's process" in yoking himself to that Thug-By-Numbers.....Whoever brought up white listeners suffering for hip-hop is blatantly ignoring their white (male) power everywhere else. You don't have good ole boys at the label trying to kill your (laudatory) piece about one of their bands on the one hand nor your colored parents on the other telling you to just stop going to hear the crackers and write for VIBE/cover Puffy instead (as if it were that simple!)...nor are you accused, yes, of being a race traitor/"white"...nor have to tangle with some prominent members of the Cornbread Cosa Nostra wanting you to fulfill their MANDINGO fantasies backstage...]

It's very true that one need not be called "Nigger!" to have a nightmare experience at the rock show. Metal's Laina's thang but, having covered my beloved rednecks for so long, I am here to tell you that being the "only one in the room" is not fun. It's not a question of feeling branded --- I've mostly not even consciously let it impede my fun w/ the bikers and the farmgirls and Yueh-ling twirlers...but cumulatively, it's a bitch, VERY wearing. And if I only had a dime for everytime some ig'nant chile asked me if I was Jaimoe's daughter...

Kandia Crazy Horse, Friday, 6 May 2005 02:28 (twenty years ago)

*sigh* It's lonely out here.

Can someone drag Daphne Brooks to the thread now?

Candicissima (candicissima), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 20:50 (twenty years ago)

Where can she be found?

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 20:51 (twenty years ago)

Who the heck knows? But I'd say we were doing pretty well about getting panelists to drop in for a min there. We can get the lady who talked about Nona Hendryx too I guess but Morley called her a Miss Ann!

Candicissima (candicissima), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 20:57 (twenty years ago)

*bemused* I'm admit I'm not familiar with the term! What does 'Miss Ann' mean?

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 21:08 (twenty years ago)

i just found a princeton campus newspaper article about daphne brooks. wow, she sounds awesome. wish i'd had a prof like that in college.

jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 21:12 (twenty years ago)

a "miss ann"'s like a "mr. charlie" right?

j blount (papa la bas), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 21:17 (twenty years ago)

The woman who did the Nona Hendryx piece was the only non-African American on the panel, and she did seem a bit lost as far as knowing what might have been more appropriate behavior for working the CD player.. (she basically told Daphne Brooks to play the tracks for her, since Daphne was closest to the CD player) then again, the "Miss Ann"-ness that Morley pointed out could have been unfortunate coincidence, and maybe she's normally like that with all her co-horts, no matter the race?

All of those issues aside, and that "over-academia in presentation" issue, I feel like I missed an otherwise great piece on Hendryx... as she is definitely overlooked, from what I heard at the tail end of the piece.

donut debonair (donut), Wednesday, 11 May 2005 21:23 (twenty years ago)

Y'all all know about Kandia-edited RIP IT UP: THE BLACK EXPERIENCE IN ROCK 'N' ROLL? Get it if you haven't.

don, Wednesday, 11 May 2005 23:46 (twenty years ago)

She also LOVES Dylan who I did target, as well as Ole Liverlips. Yes: I said he was a late modern Zip Coon etc

i bet i'll regret this but um, what the heck does that mean?

J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Thursday, 12 May 2005 00:25 (twenty years ago)

Zip Coon (Thanks to Google.) Apparently, a white guy imitating black music. More here

Candicissima (candicissima), Thursday, 12 May 2005 00:39 (twenty years ago)

Well there's more to it than that of course. Like a blackface minstrel.

Candicissima (candicissima), Thursday, 12 May 2005 00:44 (twenty years ago)

thanks, i figured it was something like that. seems an odd term to apply to dylan of all people, since he drew on country as much as the blues.

J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Thursday, 12 May 2005 02:38 (twenty years ago)

Wow you know a lot about what it's like to be white!

A Viking of Some Note (Andrew Thames), Thursday, 12 May 2005 02:44 (twenty years ago)

'zip coon' was a stock minstrel character like 'jim crow' - sexual, sophisticated dandy. cf. mick jagger.

j blount (papa la bas), Thursday, 12 May 2005 02:54 (twenty years ago)

Ole Liverlips. Yes: I said he was a late modern Zip Coon etc

Well, he is isn't he? Why was this even controversial? I think Jagger himself would even admit it to a certain extent!

J (Jay), Thursday, 12 May 2005 11:53 (twenty years ago)

There have been very gifted minstrels, white and black. Blackface runs deep in America. Bob Dylan's Love And Theft is a really good album, and Eric Lott's Love And Theft is an even better book (about minstelsey).

don, Friday, 13 May 2005 03:56 (twenty years ago)

two years pass...

A national dance craze in Ivory Coast has spawned a black market in treatments claiming to increase one's bottom size.

The dance in question has been inspired by DJ Mix and DJ Eloh's hit song Bobaraba, which means "big bottom" in the local Djoula language.

When it plays you can be guaranteed that the dance floor will be packed with people shaking their derrieres.

Even Ivorian footballers have adopted the moves and could be seen wiggling their bottoms in a curious on-pitch dance after each goal scored during the just-ended Africa Nations Cup.

However, doctors have warned of the possible dangers of some of the concoctions on sale.

While the dance has been embraced by both sexes, DJ Mix says it was inspired by women.

"We made it as a tribute to women, because African women are defined by the shape of their bottoms," he says.

"Move your bottom, jump, you see, it's alive."

Kady Meite, one of his dancers, says the song is a message for women.

"There are women today with large bottoms who are embarrassed, so it's to say don't be ashamed - be comfortable," she says.

The message seems to have been taken on board - so much so that some women are now going in search of a "bobaraba"

In the sprawling Adjame market just north of the city centre in Abidjan, women sell "bottom enhancers".

"You need to inject this liquid into your bottom once a day," says a market trader, showing a vial of coloured liquid labelled "Vitamin B12".

Each vial costs $2. The label claims it is made in China.

If you do not like the sound of injections, the same amount of money will also get you a small tub of cream.

There is no description of what the product contains or how to apply it; just the words "Big bottoms and big breasts", and two illustrating pictures.

Local gynaecologist Dr Marcel Sissoko is sceptical about the concoctions.

"This medicine could be dangerous for your health because we don't know the ingredients. It's being used without a medical prescription," he warns.

"The health ministry hasn't authorised this and doctors don't know what's in there, so there are risks."

At the Micronutrient Information Centre at Oregon State University in the United States, Dr Victoria Drake says she knows of no scientific evidence that vitamin B12 can be used to treat anything except vitamin B12 deficiency.

DJ Mix admits there is now a growing fashion for young women to show off their bottoms.

"If a woman goes dancing and wants to take two or three treatments, no problem," he says.

"But we don't say to girls that they must take treatment to enhance your bottom, no."

One man on the streets of Abidjan agreed: "Us boys, we appreciate these things because when women use the treatment it attracts us, but for women it's not good."

Most women I spoke to preferred to avoid the treatments.

"Me? I prefer to be natural so you can know your true value. It's best not to use these medicines. It's not good - it's actually very dangerous," one said.

Another woman was happy with what came naturally.

"I do the bobaraba because I already have a big bum. When I dance, everyone looks at me."

Dom Passantino, Monday, 18 February 2008 21:46 (eighteen years ago)

There's always some "zany" story in the "most read articles" section of the bbc news site that gets emailed round my building. This was today's.

Bodrick III, Monday, 18 February 2008 22:17 (eighteen years ago)

Bobaraba, which means "big bottom" in the local Djoula language.

Boboaraba means big bottom any any language!

bendy, Tuesday, 19 February 2008 04:47 (eighteen years ago)

Does Donna's article on the Fall still exist anywhere?

The Reverend, Tuesday, 19 February 2008 05:00 (eighteen years ago)

three weeks pass...

To finally answer the Rev, yes it does, and here it is:


Cerebral Caustic: a love story

By Donna E. Brown

Maybe I had something to prove, but I doubted it. Maybe I was trying to get back at my parents for dragging me away from NYC at age 4 and dumping the family unit in darkest South Carolina, where it’s always twenty years in the past. Whatever the reason, whatever the motivation, I fell in love with the wrong man. His name was Mark.

The year was 1985. College radio, irony and ethnicity weren’t yet hip, and the fact that my teachers were still referring to me as 'colored' wasn’t helping much either. I was a little black girl in a place and time when being naturally dark was looked down upon, an agnostic bookworm in a culture that mandated church attendance. Nobody liked me, but that was okay, because I didn’t like them either. I had my books and I had my music (but no boyfriends, thanks to insanely strict parents and a lack of dating material.)

Well, I thought I had music. 1985 was a lean period, a decidedly mean period. The University of South Carolina’s radio station wasn’t coming in too well, and if I heard the Thompson Twins in conjunction with "Donna likes this weird music" one more time, I would scream. There had to be someone out there who felt like I did, who would make Camden, S.C. bearable, who knew that nothing should be taken at face value and that what you thought was what mattered, not what everyone thought you ought to think. That was as novel (and convoluted) then as it is now.

One summer night I was watching MTV after my parents had gone to bed. It was a long dark night of the soul; I stayed awake out of sheer desperation, praying for something better. I’d rejected Simple Minds and Tenpole Tudor already. China Crisis and Scritti Politti were cute and lefty, but I wanted a man who’d "say what you mean and say it mean." And boom, there he was.

Mark E. Smith - the name alone made my heart wobble in a way that told me for sure that I was onto something. Not some pop tart name - it didn’t belong to a man who wore Yamamoto suits and bronzer. This was a man who lived. In the now, on the same earth as I did, thinking the same things I did, and saying them. Sort of. Everything I knew in my heart to be true despite it all, that I knew existed in the world beyond me, everything real, condensed into one word. Not even a word - a syllable. Specifically, a syllable-ah. A big ol’ "yeah RIGHT" to all that was bogus in music. That "ah" kept me going. Even if I had no idea what a Fall song was about, the verbal footnote was there. And if the song was relatively clear, the "-ah" became a rallying cry. "All those whose mind entitles themselves, and whose main entitle is themselves, shall feel the wrath of my bombast-ah!"

It mattered not that Mark E. was possibly the ugliest man who walked the planet. The sunken eyes in the ratlike face were raw and honest, and his words were his own. They didn’t have to rhyme. Hell, he couldn’t even sing, at least in a conventional sense. My parents were already horrified that I daydreamed about Bobby Gillespie instead of Bobby Brown (although their parallel drug-use paths eventually led them in the same direction.) I couldn’t let them know about this. Not just a scary-looking white man from England, this was a man whose deal with Motown was perma-scuppered when the Gordy minions heard the line in "The Classical": "where are the obligatory niggers?" Never mind "Take that, fuck-face-ah!" I was already going to hell. And all for a white boy who couldn’t sing!

But the weird thing was that MES made me feel better about being black. Before, I’d felt so uncomfortable in my small-town skin that I fell into self-loathing. I was bad at being a girl, and even worse at being black if it meant I had to go to church every day and listen to the Jets in order to feel at one with my people. But seeing a wiry ex-dockworker from Manchester spin tales that he didn’t expect anyone to understand, much less sing along with, made me breathe a little more easily. He did what he thought was right, took the rap, and remained steadfastly himself. And I thought, if he can do that, why can’t I?

And that, kids, is the (typically convoluted) story of how a white man helped me become a black woman.

The end-ah.

Mackro Mackro, Monday, 17 March 2008 07:00 (eighteen years ago)

wtf? Deal with Motown?

Bodrick III, Monday, 17 March 2008 10:27 (eighteen years ago)

Really thought that was gonna be a Hannah Pool piece.

Dom Passantino, Monday, 17 March 2008 12:00 (eighteen years ago)

See, this joke was funny because Pool is also female and black.

Mackro Mackro, Monday, 17 March 2008 17:16 (eighteen years ago)

Oh, I got that. But thanks!

Morley Timmons, Monday, 17 March 2008 23:23 (eighteen years ago)

oh dom you minx

M@tt He1ges0n, Monday, 17 March 2008 23:27 (eighteen years ago)

that is some nice writing by donna

M@tt He1ges0n, Monday, 17 March 2008 23:32 (eighteen years ago)

thank you!

Morley Timmons, Tuesday, 18 March 2008 00:11 (eighteen years ago)

what M@tt said! worth the month-long cliffhanger, even

The Reverend, Tuesday, 18 March 2008 00:26 (eighteen years ago)


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