Help, I Think I Like Jazz! or How To Avoid Being A Douchebag

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Douchebag.

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OTOH, who cares if he catches you listening to The Shape of Jazz To Come? Big deal. Listen to some more jazz. It is okay to like things even though sometimes douchebags like them too.

[walks away dejected]

How do you pronounce UFASJP?

Also, does no one have similar stories of introduction/hesitation to accept jazz? Or recs?

That said, here are five of my favorite albums. They may or may not be your favorite albums, but hey, you can at least pretend to like them so that you'll be as cool as the other douchebags who like jazz:
Alice Coltrane: Ptah the El Daoud
John Coltrane: Africa Brass 1&2
Khalid Yasin (sometimes listed as Larry Young, same guy): Lawrence of Newark
Archie Shepp: Momma Too Tight
Joe McPhee: Nation Time

I tend to like jazz with an African/Psychedelic leaning. Some people don't, some are purists and some like more abstract stuff. I think those are pretty fantastic albums, and ones that I would recommend to pretty much anyone, but it's not a big deal one way or another. But good luck in realizing that you like jazz and that it's not something earth shaking one way or another.

I'm sure there's other music I hesitated to like, but at some point you just have to realize that it's silly to hesitate to like any kind of music that you like.

If you like Shape of Jazz to Come, awesome. That's a great album. You'd probably like Ornette's other albums from the same time period - Change of the Century, This Is Our Music, etc. If you want something more intense you might also enjoy the album Free Jazz.

Lonely Woman was one of the first tracks that really turned me on to jazz.

If you like the way Ornette sounds kind of *unpredictable* compared to other jazz, you might also enjoy Thelonious Monk.

Well, let's rephrase, perhaps, by saying that there's a difference between genuinely being invested in a particular type of music and just giving it lip service all the time for the sake of affect. And that's true of people regardless of their age or the particular kind of music involved.

That being said, let's try to get back to your original question. I would advise you to step lightly through Ornette Coleman's catalogue. He (like so many others under the 'jazz' rubric) has essayed a dizzying panoply of styles throughout his career, from free jazz to funk to "third stream" orchestral hybrids. He's made great records in all of these genres, but depending on what aspects in particular you liked about The Shape of Jazz To Come, a bit of preselection may be in order.

Change of the Century is of a piece with Shape and contains the same basic line-up. Free Jazz is amazing. People also rave about the pair of "Golden Circle" live discs on Blue Note. After that, he goes all over the stylistic map, but Science Fiction/Skies of America and Dancing In Your Head are key. Of his more recent work, the soundtrack to Naked Lunch is aces.

I personally loved John Coltrane as he was expanding on his "sheets of sound" innovations but before he completely left Planet Earth in his final recordings with Alice Coltrane/Rashied Ali. My Favorite Things and Giant Steps are early cornerstones of Coltrane's work. Also try Live at the Village Vanguard. If you're feeling more stylistically ambitious, have a go at Africa/Brass. Somewhere, there's an unstoppable European radio broadcast version of "My Favorite Things" that makes me levitate, it's so unfuckingbelievable, but it was issued on some smaller, third-rate label and might be harder to track down now. I'm useless on the details of that one.

Coltrane's A Love Supreme and Miles Davis's Kind of Blue are, collectively, the Dark Side of the Moon of jazz: e.g., they're the albums which seemingly everyone has heard, owned, or at least heard of.

If you're feeling more hardcore, Albert Ayler will kill most household rodents and small children within listening radius. Go for his ESP-Disk sides like Bells/Prophecy and Spiritual Unity.

Other names to investigate, of no less importance but I just don't feel like writing an entire book at the moment: Cecil Taylor, Eric Dolphy, Charles Mingus, Don Cherry, Archie Shepp, Thelonius Monk, Pharoah Sanders.

Good luck.

Incidentally, I got into jazz by living next door to a jazz major in my sophomore year of college. He'd play stuff I liked, so I'd ask who it was. A lot of the time it was John Coltrane. So, I bought the album "Blue Train," and liked it so much that I had him fill out one of those twelve for a penny Columbia Club cards for me and ended up with a bunch of Monk, Mingus, Miles Davis, Brubeck, Ornette, and Coltrane. I was a douchebag before that, but I've been a jazz douchebag ever since.

Also, check out the often-forgotten Ornette On Tenor. (I think it's available on CD at present.)

I recommend picking up the Thelonious Monk albums on Columbia before investigating his earlier stuff. They're a little smoother, a little easier to just let wash over you; they don't have the herky-jerky edge of his 1950s recordings. Recommended titles: Monk, Criss-Cross, Monk's Dream, It's Monk's Time, Underground and the live 2CD sets Monk In Tokyo and Live At The Jazz Workshop.

Also well worth hearing - Sonny Rollins's Our Man In Jazz, East Broadway Run Down and On Impulse.

For me, at least, this is why I liked but didn't love Monk until I started listening to the Riverside and Prestige stuff.

Listen to some King Oliver and Armstrong's Hot Fives and Sevens, and see if that misconception holds up.

Probably not, actually. And it's also worth bearing in mind that a big part of Ornette's music is his refusal to work with chord changes (no piano player for most of his career). So it's gonna be difficult to find many pianists doing similar stuff. Perhaps you should check out some Cecil Taylor. I recommend The Cecil Taylor Unit, 3 Phasis and One Too Many Salty Swift And Not Goodbye; on all three of those the instrumentation was piano, trumpet, saxophone, violin, bass, drums. Some seriously wild, adventurous shit.

Yeah, pdf, I just listened to all of Blue Train (Trane?), and I think the piano is part of what irritates me. Not that it has to, but it definitely gives me the (admittedly somewhat bullshit) stereotypical vision of being in a lightly smoky dark jazz club leaning back in a both just "soaking it all in" with the other cats. But Monk is a piano player, right? So are you saying he is one of the few doing similar stuff to Ornette? Or that he's actually not that similar?

And thanks, Jordan.

Austin, what is Sonny Rollins like? I have a trusted record-store-owning friend who likes him better than Coltrane. Is he free jazz or, I mean, what's his deal? And I am totally down for some ugly beauty. Thank you.

Fork, if the big band question was for me (not sure), that era still reminds me too much of trying to play the baritone horn in jazz band in 8th grade at this point. I also connect it with that late '90s beast - ska-punk/punk-ska (whatever) - and the simultaneous swing revival. This kind of music was responsible for my interest in music in the first place and "Swingers" is a great movie and all, but I just don't think I'm ready to go there yet.

1. never carry around a double-bass
2. always knock before entering a room
3. make sure it's okay to play your neighbor's guitar

by doing these three things you will avoid jazz douchebaggery

...and the tangentially-related Flying Luttenbachers, with whom Ken Vandermark played in their earliest days and who owned the punk-jazz sound on their brilliant debut album, Constructive Destruction.

The Luttenbachers subsequently descended into total black-metal chaos and Weasel Walter eventually split Chicago, but it was all fun while it lasted.

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As for Sonny Rollins, he's hard to pin down -- he's been all over the map. He did in fact have a period where he followed the innovations of Ornette Coleman, though most of his material is more straight ahead. Saxophone Colossus is sort of considered the classic Rollins album if there is to be only one. I like the Village Vanguard trio stuff a lot myself -- you might like it if you like Ornette since it's also pianoless, which gives it a somewhat similar freedom. I also like The Bridge. But for someone like you he doesn't seem like the right artist to start with.

No need to feel bad about finding Blue Train a little dull. I do myself. Better to start with Giant Steps or his earlier albums with the Tyner/Garrison/Jones quartet (My Favorite Things, Coltrane's Sound, etc.) That Live at the Village Vanguard set is one of my favorite things in music. Fuck. Now I need to listen to it.

(For the uninitiated: Live is from November '61: Coltrane, McCoy Tyner, Jimmy Garrison, Elvin Jones, Eric Dolphy, elegant and quick-witted and lyrical, includes "Chasin' the Trane." Live... Again is from May '66, Coltrane and Garrison joined by Pharoah Sanders, Alice Coltrane, Rashied Ali and Emanuel Rahim, and it's... screechtastic, especially when Sanders disembowels the theme of "Naima" with a broken plastic spoon. Also excellent, but yeah, if you're expecting more like the '61 Vanguard, it's going to be like expecting It Happened One Night and getting Videodrome.)

(Actually, if you want more like the '61 Vanguard, just get Impressions.)

I heartily second Myke's enthusiasm for Constructive Destruction, and I'd add that you also can't go wrong with its sequel, Destroy All Music.

Also, I think the real issue underlying my silly concern that started this whole thread is the fear of having to learn a whole new vocabulary when getting into a new genre of music. The desire to just have the knowledge instead of having to accrue it. The fear of looking stupid when you're not the resident expert in the room. Which is silly, 'cause the accruing is the fun part, and I am usually very down for this kind of stuff. I think the clincher is that you must add, with jazz (for me, at least), the inability to sort of discover all this on my own on the sly via the help of books/documentaries/critics/etc, which was much easier for me re: pop, rock and hip-hop.

Austin, "Reflections" didn't really do it for me. Not intense enough, I think. But I really appreciate the effort. I'm listening to Ayler's Spiritual Unity right now, and it's more up my alley. A little too squawky, though.

And Berman, do you mean the '61 or '66 Vanguard set? Your description has piqued my interest.

This is an ILM-redeeming thread for me. Thanks all.

I also share your feelings about Spiritual Unity -- I like it but I don't think I could sit through it if it was longer because it's so honky. I really like the bass and drums better than the sax.

Too late, shitbird!

Too late, shitbird!

*YAWN!

Seriously, do people just decide when and where they want to turn their irony/sarcasm/sense of humor on/off arbitrarily?

Deej, point me to some! (Also, I like your hijacking of the OB4CL/Liquid Swords thread, and the fucking "choppable" lyric is oh-so-classic!)

And Berman, it's just Dave. Daphima is just a ridiculous amalgam of my full name.

The writer Charles Mingus said was the only white boy who could write about jazz, ok so if you don't like the 'special white boy' subtext its ok because he really is a great writer - Nat Hentoff - American Music Is.

Sun Ra's biography is fantastic - all you need are a couple additional Wire pieces on the dude and yr set. John Szwed - Space is the Place.

OK this isn't really 'about jazz' but if you love Mingus (I do, you should) then this is a must-read: Charles Mingus - Beneath the Underdog.

This book is incredible if you like The Best Jazz Album Ever, even if you don't think it lives up to its rep (it does, x100). Don't mistakenly get the Eric Nisenson book, similarly titled, because apparently it's pretty bad in comparison. Which is too bad, because I enjoyed Nisenson's bio of Miles a lot when I read it - DO check out that bio. But yeah, Ashley Kahn - Kind of Blue: The Making of the Miles Davis Masterpiece.

Sun Ra - Especially circa Heliocentric Worlds. His use of percussion and obsession with space should appeal to anyone just into jazz.

Miles Davis - Live/Evil, On the Corner, all of his extreme weird shit which sound like funky halloween scary noise tapes and rock with avengance.

uhmm.. and probably a lot of stuff by Eric Dolphy

btw - when it comes to ILM, do not take anything personally ever.

-- corey c (c_cosmo...), December 5th, 2005.

You're the man now douchebag.

Re: Kind of Blue, etc.— Don't listen to them, Roundup! They're trying to talk you into old man jazz! Don't go backwards, go forwards! You want the SHAPE OF JAZZ TO COME, not the shape of jazz what already was! (Ok, little bit of hyperbole, but from what you're looking at, I don't think Kind of Blue is going to be the best fit for you now. It just doesn't have the freedom that Ornette does, and one of the best ways to become a jazz douchebag is to insist on listening to it over and over to "get it." Look for it in a couple of years when you're curious about the roots of this stuff you're listening to, but don't try to get it now otherwise you'll put it on a couple times, be bored by the enforced swing and "coolness" of it.)

Go forward! Vandermark is a good start, and I like his AALY Trio album I Wonder if I Was Screaming. I do recommend A Jackson in Your House by the Art Ensemble of Chicago and Rahsaan Roland Kirk's Prepare Thyself to Deal With a Miracle (when I first saw it, I was skeptical of the boasting title, but then he backed it up).
Also good current musicians: Peter Brotzman, Tim Berne, Chris Speed, The Thing.

Charles Mingus - The Black Saint and the Sinner Lady
Miles Davis - Dark Magus
John Coltrane - Stellar Regions

I went to the record store tonight and actually bought (instead of just dl-ing) The Shape and a Vandermark Five album from last year called ...Exercises in Surprise, which is a great title, by the way. I also listened to Free Jazz and Monk's Underground. The latter was nice but not what I was feeling at the moment. However, it was piano and I wasn't annoyed beyond reason, so I think that's a good sign for the possibility of me liking Monk (and especially earlier, crazier stuff).

Free Jazz actually made me nervous, partially because I was pressuring myself into buying it. But this is great, because I really want to hear music that actually makes me think, "This doesn't sound like music. It sounds like they're tuning," especially because it feeds into some of the ideas I'm getting about jazz that I really like and will share if anyone is interested. Also, with punk, the albums that didn't sound like what I thought "punk" was have turned out to really blow open the doors for me (e.g. London Calling and Double Nickels on the Dime).

It was funny when I bought these albums because one of my friends at the store was like, "Oh no. You're turning the corner. Soon you're not gonna want to hear any of those whiny guys talking cleverly about their problems. You're just gonna be like, 'Yeah, but can you play?' Someone will try to point out the extended metaphors and 'Look what he's doing here,' and you'll just say, 'Okay, enough dude. Can you play?'" An amusing thought, do you think there's any truth to it. Has listening to jazz made any of you impatient with other music? Also, what is the chance that I will slide what I still consider to be down the slippery slope into "jam bands"? Stories?

Anyway, the V5 is really tearing me up. I love how they can freak out and then groove as well. Thanks for the suggestion, Jordan, Myke, and js! Keep 'em coming!

Also, Stormy, is that the Mandel Hall at the University of Chicago? 'Cause that's my school. I imagine it is.

yes.

No, but the fact that I hate bad lyrics (thus I am drawn to music in languages I don't understand and music where the lyrics are incomprehensible, like death metal) dovetails nicely with my love of jazz. I hate jazz vocal.

>Also, what is the chance that I will slide what I still consider to be down the slippery slope into "jam bands"?

Slim to none.

Not that I've noticed. Plenty of people I otherwise respect seem to adore MMW, for example.

"Am I justified in my remaining disdain for jam bands?"

Fuck yeah.

Xpost: Well, that's because MMW are fucking boring "jazz" for jam band wankers.

Extrememly likely given your general douchiness.

When I was in my introverted jazz nerd phase I was impatient with anything that didn't have tons of complex chord changes. But I matured out of that.

Also, what is the chance that I will slide what I still consider to be down the slippery slope into "jam bands"?

No, I think it's a pretty big divide. There are some overlaps, but I tend not to like the jazz that's at the margins of jam, except maybe occasionally MMW.

Another thing, (and perhaps it's too soon for you to hear this, since you're just getting started), but don't be too afraid of "old man jazz." After listening to nothing but bop and modern for a while, I was shocked to realize how "modern" some earlier jazz was capable of sounding - Ellington, Coleman Hawkins, etc.

Speaking of which, you really need to get Ellington/Mingus/Roach - Money Jungle. It will definitely cure you of any dislike you have for piano.

Hey--if you want to stick with Ornette for a while, and "Shape" caught your attention, try _Free Jazz_ with the legendary double quartet or skip ahead 10 or so years to _Science Fiction_. Or go with some of Ornette's most notable sidemen: Don Cherry--Complete Communion (or for a switchup on the same track, go with Ken Vandermark's _Free Jazz Classics_ or Tom Varner's _Second Communion_. Want to try some unbridled energy? Arcje Shepp's _Magic of JuJu_ or _Mama Too Tight_. Got Coltrane's _A Love Supreme_, _SunShip_ or _Live at the Village Vanguard_?

I can understand cool jazz not grabbing someone right out of the gate and bebop can be an acquired taste. Took me damn near twenty years to get into _Kind of Blue_ (and I had quite a bit of Miles before then) and I can still only take bop in limited amounts. That said, the post-bop of Andrew Hill (Black Fire), Eric Dolphy (Out to Lunch), or Joe Henderson (Inner Urge)can hit the spot.

There's tons of stuff to explore--Joe McPhee, the Instant Composer's Pool (the other ICP, Marty Ehrlich, DKV, AALY Trio. What else can I say? Oh--you can't go wrong with Coltrane. Pick some stuff that you like, do a search on the other's in the band, and go from there.

or, if that's too outside:
John McLaughlin: Extrapolation, with John Surman and Tony Oxley, recorded before he went to the States to work with Miles Davis. Also, The Baptised Traveller by the Tony Oxley Quintet (with Evan Parker and Derek Bailey).

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Hurting, it's funny to read your enthusiasm here coupled with the revival of the "Hates the 80's" thread. I think I'll try recommending a couple more things over there based on that I've read here.

Ornette is a bad-ass anyway you slice it. Have you seen the Ornette doc where he is back hanging out in Fort Worth eating BBQ and drinking Millers and hanging out with his old school friends?? Ornette is the biggest bad-ass on the planet man, putting up with the shit he must have put up with...

Also, Stormy, is that the Mandel Hall at the University of Chicago? 'Cause that's my school. I imagine it is.

-- regular roundups (daphim...), December 5th, 2005 8:37 PM

yes it is; I am a Maroon as well. go Maroons. This concert was the first they played after coming back from their "exile on Rue Monge". it totally smokes, Delmark records, Bob Koester, once again stepping up to the plate. back in the days when the world was full of douchebags who *wouldn't* step up to the plate for this outstanding music. You should go buy the (2 LPS on 1 CD) at JRM! I'm sad about the new JRM, it's definitely a bummer ... not the same vibe .. sign o the times...

hey man, the concert that basically fully *won me over* to Jazz for ever and ever (although of course I *loved* Kind of Blue at this point of course -- fucking phenomenal record that needs no defending), was Roscoe Mitchell in performance with his group at Mandel Hall back in like 1992. (which I *think* included Favors -- although I once quizzed Roscoe about that a decade or so later, and he couldn't recall who was actually in the group that night.) My first ever exposure to things like circular breathing and so forth. I was just totally blown away. Like, mind blown to psychedelic proportions. Oh and the "little instruments" too, they busted those out, which was hella fun.

I started with jazz at the beginning (the Original Dixieland Jass Band from 1917!) though there are lots of ways to get excited about this stuff, so as others have said, just listen to what you like and keep checking who's on your favorite tracks and see what they did. Get the Penguin Guide to Jazz (I cannot stress this enough). I should also say that the Gary Giddins Roadmap has turned me on to lots of stuff. I hardly ever listen to it in order but every now and again I'll go back and hear "Le Nevada" or something like I haven't really heard it before, and then go explore Gil Evans. The thread: Gary Giddins ; the link to the original article: http://www.villagevoice.com/print/issues/0223/giddins.php and to cure your piano ills (actually from the Roadmap, too!) is some Cecil Taylor "Spring of Two Blue-Js"
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I've never seen Roscoe Mitchell play (even though he lives in town), but I did see him dancing around at a show where Malachi Favors was playing bass.

In alphabetical order:

Art Ensemble of Chicago - I got a lot of recommendations to listen to them, and a different album each time. What are they like in general? and what differentiates these albums (i.e. which should I spring for first): A Jackson in Your House, Bap-Tizum, Nice Guys, Urban Bushmen, People in Sorrow, Eda Wobu, Live at Mandel Hall?

Ornette I feel pretty set on, and I'm looking forward to doing a little experimenting on my own here.

Coltrane - What sounds best to me of his stuff are the two live sets I've seen recommended: Live at the Village Vanguard 1961 and Live at Birdland. The intense drumming on the latter sounds particularly appealing, but is the overwhelming recommendation still for the former?

Eric Dolphy - Out to Lunch has me psyched. Recs for that one have been very high.

Flying Luttenbachers - Constructive Destruction. Maybe. I'll have to hear a bit first at the record store or something.

Rahsaan Roland Kirk - Prepare Thyself to Deal With a Miracle (for the title alone) and Does Your House Have Lions (which I imagine is based on the book of poems of the same title, forget the author). Which of these two?

Mingus - Mingus Mingus Mingus Mingus Mingus sounds like a treat.

Monk - I've seen two recs for Monk's Dream, but nothing from his earlier years for any specific reasons. Should I be more interested in his live stuff from that era or are studio recordings great as well, and why?

Sonny Sharrock - Ask the Ages (#1 on the '90s ILM Jazz Poll). Anyone have anything more on this?

Archie Shepp - Momma Too Tight based on its recommendation as energetic and African/psychedelic-leaning, which makes it sound fairly varied.

Sun Ra I'm still not sure on. I think I might want to save him for later, even for how great he seems. It seems like I would be better devoting a period to him exclusively (not that a bunch of these others couldn't use the same treatment, but he seems to get classified by himself by many of you).

Cecil Taylor - One Too Many Salty Swift and Not Goodbye. Again, I'm a sucker for sweet-as-hell titles. I liked the Taylor track you sent me, mcd, though I can tell it's gonna take some getting used to (Ornette is more melodic than people make him out to be, I think).

Henry Threadgill - Too Much Sugar for a Dime was #2 on the ILM '90s Jazz Poll. Better than Sharrock? Pick only one of them, as if you had to.

Vandermark's Free Jazz Classics also sounds like a cool introduction, though I might not need it what with the rest of this stuff. Also, I have a V5 album so I could maybe opt for something else instead.

And before I get jumped on, I didn't include any Miles Davis because that feels like its own thing (and a later one) as well. Also, I'm not sure funk/fusion is where I'm going at the moment, though I will definitely be heading there in the future.

As always, any comments you have are really appreciated. Don't feel like you have to write a novel just because I did. Thanks again for all the headucation!

The Penguin Guide to Jazz on CD. Is it the best of its kind? Better than the New York Times 100 Essential Jazz Albums? More comprehensive I assume.

As Serious as Your Life. Saw this on another thread and it seemed up my alley. It's more historical, right?

Amiri Baraka - Blues People and Ellison's Living With Music both intrigue me, but I'll probably go with just Ellison on the "literary jazz writing" front.

the Mingus autobio, esp. if I get the Mingus (X5) album.

Paul F. Berliner's Thinking in Jazz: The Infinite Art of Improvisation appeals based on my improv acting background and therefore something about jazz that really grabs me.

And maybe Hentoff's American Music Is, but I don't want to put too much on my plate reading-wise.

Too Much Sugar for a Dime is M-Baseish odd-time beats, and it still hasn't quite clicked for me. Ask the Ages is simple, hooky distorted guitar vamps with explosive Elvin Jones playing all the way through. Both of them you'll probably need to find used at the moment.

Mingus x5 is fire, I've started out a lot of people with that album.

Art Ensemble is very clattery and very free-improv, I think to get with it you have to turn it up loud and really be willing to put yourself in the moment with them. I'll let someone else speak to them though, since I haven't listened to any of their records in maybe four years.

For Coltrane, I recommend going a little later into his catalogue. I like Live at the Village Voice, but it's not really, y'know, all that mindblowing on first impression. I'd say Africa Brass, but I argue for that one often... (Sun Ship is also great and explosive). A Love Supreme may be the most beautiful thing he ever recorded.

I like Ask the Ages more, but neither of them really feel like classics to me.

Dolphy: There's also Conference of the Birds, which is pretty tight and abstract.

Rahsaan: Erm. Look, you really should get both. I say Prepare Thyself will probably be cheaper. The last time I was in Chicago, I saw it at Dusty Grooves on vinyl and had to tear myself away from it, but if you're around there, do me a favor and buy it. It was, like, $15 and sealed. Probably some Italian repressing, but whatever. Call ahead and they'll probably set it aside for you.

For Vandermark and kind of an odd intro to jazz, you can also look to his Spaceways Inc., which does covers of Funkadelic and Sun Ra in a free jazz style. It's not canonical, but it's pretty damn fine (as is the vol. 2 of it). You can also go with DKV, which has Hamid Drake drumming. His control of percussive tone is amazing, and if you get the chance to see him (he's in Chicago, as is Vandermark), do it. Or really, anything with Drake, Vandermark and William Parker. They are the holy fire of genius jazz when together.

Art Ensemble: you might also give a listen to their "pop hit" (cough cough cough), "Theme de Yoyo," from Les Stances a Sophie, with Fontella Bass singing...

Also, check out the Roscoe Mitchell album Sound.

The other one that comes up frequently as a good intro is that Jazz Composer's Orchestra album. Which I am dying to hear, but it's OOP and I have not been able to track down a copy!

Art Ensemble of Chicago - Bap-Tizum
Ornette Coleman - Change of the Century and Free Jazz
John Coltrane - A Love Supreme (I've liked parts I've heard, and I'm sure I can get it used for cheap) and Live at Birdland
Eric Dolphy - Out to Lunch
Flying Luttenbachers - Constructive Destruction
Rahsaan Roland Kirk - Does Your House Have Lions (I had no idea it was an anthology, and if it's so highly recommended, I'd love to have it as a jumping-off point.)
Charles Mingus - Mingus Mingus Mingus Mingus Mingus
Thelonious Monk - Brilliant Corners sounds like a good place to start (based on AllMusic).
Archie Shepp - Momma Too Tight
Cecil Taylor - One Too Many Salty Swift and Not Goodbye

As for books, the Ellison, Mingus autobio, Penguin, and Berliner are where I'm headed.

I might save the AEC, Archie Shepp, Luttenbachers, and Taylor for a little later, though. Because I really want to digest what I get and not take it too fast.

Anthony Braxton, Roscoe Mitchell, Henry Threadgill Chicago 1977, track one

This was the first Mingus album I ever bought, and I'm going to recommend against it. Most or all of the songs, if I remember right, are just inferior versions of songs from other albums under different titles. Go with Mingus Ah Um, The Clown, or Blues and Roots.

Monk - I've seen two recs for Monk's Dream, but nothing from his earlier years for any specific reasons. Should I be more interested in his live stuff from that era or are studio recordings great as well, and why?

I thought I said above, but I recommend Live at the Five Spot, Thelonious in Action (from the same set), and Live at the Blackhawk. Ooh, also Genius of Modern Music vols 1 and 2 has some great earlier recordings (despite what you might think they're no less wacky than his later stuff). And Brilliant Corners is also a good studio album -- I wouldn't say I have any preference between the live and studio stuff. Oh yeah, Monk's Music is also really good. So is Monk with Art Blakey and the Jazz Messengers.

Live at Birdland is very good as far as Coltrane goes. You can't really go wrong with the impulse stuff, except maybe "Ballads" (I like it but it's not what you're looking for).

I prefer the versions on Mingusx5, but keep them all on hand.

Except for The Queen of All Ears, which is great.

Most or all of the songs, if I remember right, are just inferior versions of songs from other albums under different titles.

I agree, if by inferior you mean superior! II B.S. is Haitian Fight Song x10. Goodbye Pork Pie Hat might not be as good, but E's Flat Ah's Flat and Better Git Hit in Yo' Soul are great. And Freedom!!

Haha, shit. I guess I'm gonna have to listen to bits of both.

something to consider before you get all big spendy.

Here's what I got:
Does Your House Have Lions?: The Rahsaan Roland Kirk Anthology
Mingus Ah Um
Coltrane's Live at Birdland
Ornette's Free Jazz and Change of the Century
Monk's Best of the Blue Note Years
Eric Dolphy - Out to Lunch
and the Penguin Guide

I already know I love Ah Um and Out to Lunch from what I've heard. Thanks so much, all of you. My heart is warmed.

(that's a good start. But you need to start putting away one jazz album per paycheck at least... Douchebag.)

Lately I've been wanting to hear more from the trombonists. I like George Lewis and Jeb Bishop.

The first time I saw the Brotzmann Tentet (+2), I thought Jeb Bishop blew everybody else off stage. Anthony Braxton's 1970s albums are a great place to get lots of George Lewis. Also, Lewis' Homage to Charles Parker is one of the most heartstoppingly beautiful pieces of music I've ever heard.

Today's jazz quota is being nicely filled by the Grateful Dead Fillmore West 1969 3CD.

I would definitely recommend the Smithsonian Collection of Classic Jazz; it's expensive on CD, but if you have a phonograph you can find the LPs for next to nothing. Also any good library should have it, and the U of C library should as well. It's really helpful to start connecting the dots between genres and give you a broad historical overview.

The Burns documentary that was on PBS a while back is worth seeing, if only for the performance footage, which is just wonderful.

Good job going for the Monk Blue Notes first rather than the Columbias. I worked backwards and the only Monk I still own (besides the new 1957 Carnegie Hall CD) is the complete Blue Notes. Great performances.

If I had to ask someone to buy one Sun Ra LP it would have to be Jazz in Silhouette, which handily enough is a five-star in the Penguin. The thing about Ra is that his discography is beyond huge, and each album can be very different from the last.

A modern record which I thought was one of the best recently is Spring Heel Jack's Masses, with Matthew Shipp, Evan Parker, and a lot of other people, from 2001. It leans into the worlds of the British improv scene, late Talk Talk, and 'electronica' but it doesn't feel like a genre pastiche. The forties-fities-sixties period is an embarrassment of riches but there are a lot of good records outside that as well.

Yes! Masses and Amassed are great. (I haven't heard the live album that resulted -- a friend of mine went to that show and said it was as great as you might expect, but his only specific comment was about how good J Spaceman was in a free jazz context.)

RR, I could see how your dad could not like OTL rhythmically...yeah, there's lots of crazy rhythmic shit going on, but it's not exactly a blues shuffle, you know?

Anyway, I got a record store gift certificate from my fiancee's dad, and I'm excited about catching up on some jazz records from this year.

Although it was my first introduction to jazz, more or less, I might recommend against it. It's a great collection, but it's heavily weighted towards earlier jazz and big-band stuff that might turn off a newbie.

They've made three, I think, and the Blue Series Continuum cut a live record that sounds like Bitches Brew-era Miles.

Masses is the best one; the others just sound like retreads of it, and don't pack the emotional wallop.

Although it was my first introduction to jazz, more or less, I might recommend against it. It's a great collection, but it's heavily weighted towards earlier jazz and big-band stuff that might turn off a newbie.

Looking at the tracklist (I had the LPs, which have a different tracklisting) you're right, there is a lot of early stuff on there. And it's huge! So that's a library trip when you feel like getting into the early stuff, then. But Sidney Bichet's "Blue Horizon" is there, which is lovely.

Looking at the Folkways site they're working on a new version of the Classic Jazz set for 2006!

Oh, if you like Monk, the Steve Lacy records like Morning Joy are great to hear another take on those tunes.

Duke Ellington never referred to, or approached, his own work as "jazz." Neither did Monk, Mingus, Coltrane, Miles, etc. etc. ad infinitum. So not approaching it as "jazz", as a listener, can give you a different perspective. Ditto "free jazz" (e.g., Albert Ayler, Cecil Taylor, Sun Ra, et al never played "free jazz" -- they played their music).

Haha, my dad just got this album for me for Christmas.

-- js (roc...), December 4th, 2005.

I got these three for Christmas based on this recommendation. Thanks for that!

!

douchebag card revoked!

I can't understand the hate for the Columbia Monk. Those albums are great and I wouldn't live without 'em.

I've been catching up on my avant-jazz there.

I only have one minor complaint about the upthread chatter, and I know it shouldn't bother me, but, (and this is to Abbadabba Berman): Hamid Drake is a friend of mine, so the expletive was pretty jarring. I'm sure you meant it as a superlative for his drumming, and I'll leave it at that.

Back to the music: Art Ensemble's Bap-Tizum would be a good place to start--or Urban Bushmen if you can find it; I think ECM cut it out a few years ago.

Ask the Ages is Sharrock, Pharoah Sanders, Elvin Jones, and Charnette Moffatt(named for his father Charles and his father's friend Ornette). It is a classic, but for em the best wild-ass Sharrock is with Don Cherry and (trombonist) Albert Mangelsdorf on _Eternal Rhythms_ from about 67-68 or so. Cherry was phenomenal.

Want to get some deep brass--not quite trombone--and Cherry's brilliant music at the same time? Try Tom Varner's _Second Communion_ which is Cherry's Complete Communion transcribed for french horn. Varner is probably the only major french horn in jazz since Julius Watkins died.

Clifford Thornton was the free-jazz name in trombones--find Freedom & Unity (recenty reissued on Atavistic's Unheard Music series)

William Parker (the tip upthread from Abbadabba Berman) is another OTM suggestion, and there are plenty of Matthew Shipp/William Parker recordings to explore.

This music is not over until WE say it's over.

Uh, whoopsie. Still, even if he isn't a trumpet player, Hank Mobley's straight ahead hard bop records are really good.

You should also be able to find a copy of The Panther And The Lash, which was reissued as part of the America series last year.

Does Tom Varner sometimes also play a huge, telescoping hunting horn type thing, or spin his French horn around while playing? If so, I saw him do a clinic and concert while in college. If not, that was somebody else who is also serious.

Derek Bailey and Henry Kaiser - Wireforks

Derek Bailey and Susie Ybarra - Daedal

Derek Baily and DJ Ninj - Guitar and Drum and Bass

Derek Bailey and Min Tanaka - Music and Dance

Any of the records with Braxton are amazing, especially the extended blowout at the end of the Wigmore 2lp set (which I think was a rehearsal .. not from the actual live performance .. need to check)

But I actually think he may be at his best solo; Incus Taps, Solo, Vol 1 and Vol. 2, Standards .. and the best will always be Aida.

Along with the other Coltranes mentioned, I recommend Transition which was the last great record by the 4tet (Tyner Jones Garrison).

And YES! Hamid Drake! Go see him play! Ideally with William Parker.

Contemporary trumpeter Roy Campbell.

Derek Bailey RIP.

On a whim I just put on an album I haven't heard for a few years -- I think I reviewed it for the college paper: Paul Bley/Gary Peacock/Paul Motian "Not Two, Not One."

This is a really great, largely overlooked record! Perfect example of how group improvisation can stay "focused" and doesn't necessarily have to be chaotic and noisy (though there's nothing wrong with that either). I'm not as crazy about the Bley solo piano stuff on the disc, but the duo and trio stuff is great.

for trumpet:

Bill Dixon, Vade Mecum. An absolute landmark in this music.

Funny you should say that. He's actually quite notorious for not being a nice guy. I've seen him be extremely rude to audience members who complimented him after a show, snidely critiqueing their praise for him. His reputation for being a dick is such that he gets far less work than he used to, and many former collaborators refuse to speak to him.

http://loco.hautetfort.com/images/medium_arton322.2.jpg

It's pretty much the opposite of free improv, it's all beats and through-composition and great melodies & backgrounds.

Allmusic tells me they were both involved in Chicago's Association for the Advancement of Creative Musicians. Maybe that's where I should go next. Thanks for the recommendation!

also, ill agree with upthread that conference of the birds is excellent.

Cohran was the trumpeter (one of 'em anyway) for Sun Ra, way way back. Related if you like his stuff:

Sun Ra: Angels and Demons at Play; Nubians of Plutonia (many Ra disks are available as twofers on the Evidence label); Fate in a Pleasant Mood; Outer Spaceways Incorporated; Heliocentric Worlds Vol. 1 (better than vol. 2, but get both if you can);

Propulsive and Riff-heavy all on its ownself: Pharoah Sanders: Summun Bukman Umyan (Deaf Dumb & Blind) and Black Unity.

Also think: McCoy Tyner, Sama Layuca. Song for my Lady.

Bobby Hutcherson, San Francisco (there are many great BH albums, but this one has the rhythmic propulsion necessary).

Upthread mentions by that brilliant lad js: Lawrence of Newark. You would have to be a stuttering fool to not get this one for its blast of outrageous fonk. And it may leave you a stuttering fool by the time you're done.

Psychedlic funk jazz rhythmic propulsion? Les McCann's Invitation to Openess. But save it for an evening of wine and uh explorations.

Threadgill, Fred Hopkins and Steve McCall had a group called Air. They were all zodiacal air signs, thus the name. They were also part of the Muhal Abrams Sextet before Muhal moved to Boston. Air has some good disks on Black Saint. This was at the beginning of Threadgills multi-instrumental approach. Mostly his flute and percussion with Hopkins bass and McCall's drums. Fred and Steve are both gone now, unfortunately. Threadgill's Zooid with Up Popped the Two Lips is good, and if there is such a thing, math-jazz.

I have found very few disks on Black Saint which disappoint. Among those that are quite good:

Billy Harper: Black Saint
David Murray: Ming
Andrew Cyrille: Metamusician's Stomp
Sonny Clark Memorial Quartet (John Zorn, Wayne Horvitz, et al): Voodoo

and easily twenty more.

I like the unusual texture/timbre that he brings with his ensembles. He tends to find instruments and groupings of instruments that are underused by other bands. Things like tuba, accordion, french horn, piccolo, etc. In my fave group of his, Very Very Circus, not only did he put two electrical guitars, two upper register winds, and two tubas together (sort of a siamese twin of a band joined at the hip by a single drummer) he'd dedicate songs and movements inside songs to subgroups within that pretty unusual lineup. So you get a lot more tonal variety than you find in the common run of jazz groups. I also dig that he's not afraid of polyrhythm - he borrows a lot of latin, african and african stuff, not to mention ragtime touches, but doesn't just copy them (at least as far as I can tell.) Or he'll drop regular rhythm entirely and play something akin to the 'alap' section of a raga. I've heard some people argue that he's not really jazz, because he's seated so much in other traditions, including modern classical. Doesn't matter to me, much, though. What it really comes down to is I find his music incredibly memorable and beautiful, despite the fact that/because it's sometimes pretty unorthodox and complicated.

What did Harper play?

That's a great record, and you really can't go wrong with those Free America discs (although they are more expensive.) Verve, ESP and Atavistic put out some great, relatively inexpensive out stuff.

If you're in the Philadelphia area, ars nova workshop has been doing a great concert series in venues all over West Philly. Threadgill is playing in March. (It's too bad I missed Sunny Murray back in October.)

Also, xpost, just to defend myself: I am not a douchebag. As Richard Pryor tells the crowd in Here and Now when they defy his claims of being clean and sober, you don't have to believe me. But it is true.

Change of the Century is probably a more accessible, now that I think about it.

But having said that, yall have gotta check out 'Khalid of Space Part Two' (from "Lawrence of Newark") and it's not exactly short. It's got tremendous forward momentum...a really frantic, nervous, tense rhythm...and then the payoff at the climax of the track just has to be heard. Thanks for all those who recommended it

Being just a jazz dabbler, I couldn't tell you what kind of jazz Bobby Hutcherson is playing. I can say that it's just about the kind of jazz that bores me--polite & sterile--but it's not. It's got an extra oomph to it, esp. on 'Goin Down South.' I think I could probably even slip that one into a DJ set.

The title track from "Mama Too Tight" is so UP, I'd love to have it playing right as you're finishing your 5th beer in an hour, feeling great, flirting with the bartender, knowing you're about 45 seconds from being totally wasted.

Anyway, those are my unsolicited thoughts. I think these albums and the other ones on this thread are a nice blueprint for years of happy listening.

All done!

About 4 years ago, I watched Hamid Drake tear it up with both DKV and the Vandermark 5 in the same evening. A little later, I went to another club where Gerald Cleaver was drumming for a Mat Maneri-led group. Hamid echoed your sentiment--Cleaver was just plain ill.

OK, Billy. Now you have to go find Shepp's _Magic of Juju_ somewhere--the 18 minute title track (more frenzy in the mold of Khalid of Space, but just tenor and 5 percussionists) will break you of your 3:00 and under fixation and "Your What This Day Is All About" in 1:51 will restore your smile, guaranteed.

For that 5th beer in an hour but feelin' all right, laughing as you try to walk down three flights of stairs to get to the street:

Eric Dolphy_Music_Matador. Written by Prince Lasha & Sonny Simmons, with Dolphy on bass clarinet, Hutcherson on vibes, Clifford Jordan (soprano sax?), and (18 year old) Woody Shaw on trumpet, this tune just blisters me with delight. Richard Davis strums his bass to open, and it all just kind of swims from there.

Others not mentioned:

Oliver Nelson * The Blues And The Abstract Truth (Impulse) 61
The Horace Silver Quintet * Song for My Father (Blue Note) 64
Sun Ra * Other Planes of There (Evidence) 64

These ILXors turned me into a douchebag last night. This Esperanza Spalding woman is TOO MUCH.

XD

DAMN right.

Don't forget that Joyce track, too:

I think you fancy this guy. You asked him if he drank his own cum and you have photos of him on your computer. Time to own up.

waht