Daniel Quinn's Ishmael

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I'm sure everybody has heard of Daniel Quinn's much celebrated "adventure of the mind and spirit" Ishmael at one time or another.

I just finished it and I'm curious to hear some opinions.

For the uninitated, The Library Journal may be able to get you up to speed:

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Ishmael, a gorilla rescued from a traveling show who has learned to reason and communicate, uses these skills to educate himself in human history and culture. Through a series of philosophical conversations with the unnamed narrator, a disillusioned Sixties idealist, Ishmael lays out a theory of what has gone wrong with human civilization and how to correct it, a theory based on the tenet that humanity belongs to the planet rather than vice versa. While the message is an important one, Quinn rarely goes beyond a didactic exposition of his argument, never quite succeeding in transforming idea into art. Despite this, heavy publicity should create demand. Previewed in Prepub Alert, LJ 10/15/91.

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The dude pretty much nails it all right there. The Socratic dialogue between Ishmael and the narrator slowly works it way through an alternative view on human history that reinterprets biblical texts, celebrates so-called "primitive" cultures, and condemns all post-agricultural revolutionary civilization as arrogant or -- to use a word Socrates would have favored -- decadent.

The main premise of the book is that our human civilization is what Ishmael refers to as a "Taker culture." We have prioritized and ranked earth's inhabitants, placing ourselves on top. Since the agricultural revolution we have worked to elevate ourselves above the primitive lives of beasts. In the process, we've nearly destroyed the Earth and its non-human inhabitants through pollution, short sighted agriculture techniques, war, and overpopulation, all the while feeling that it was our right to do so. In short, as Ishmael himself alleges, we see "the Earth as made for man, not man as made for the Earth."

Quinn should be lauded for laying everything he had to say out in a straightforward easy to understand manner. However, the book is certainly not conventional literature. There's barely any plot or character development and because the bulk of it is taken up by the sort of teacher-student question-and-answer sessions favored by Socrates the book it reminds me most of is not a novel but actually Plato's Republic.

If you're looking for an eco-minded novel, this is not the place to go. If you are interested in a very readable alternative account of human history that readily finds faults in the way we live and is willing to point fingers, this is your book.

The book has had a pretty significant effect on a large amount of readers, much more visable an effect than most novels at least (Virginia Wolff rolls in her grave as I type). If you want info about how people have reacted to the book, check out The Ishmael Community online.

Has anybody read this? Many reviews on Amazon claim that the logic of its arguments are weak and easy to counter but none of them actually do their homework and back up their claims with fact. What's so bad about this book? It certainly isn't hippie idealism.

P.S. I feel kinda guilty posting about this book for some reason. It seems to be the sort of thing that your average college dope reads before deciding they need to change the world by dying their hair red and failing all their classes. I just want to get the word out, yo. Feel free to voice any opinions you have. I don't want to come off as some kinda hippie missionary. I just want to talk about books.

I got my copy at the White Elephant Resale Shop for 50 cents. Now that I'm finished with it I'm diving back into a half finished paperback edition of Jose Donoso's The Garden Next Door.

ben welsh (benwelsh), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 20:52 (twenty-two years ago)

four weeks pass...
A friend of mine made a pretty successful short film about the ideas in that book. I haven't read it, but it sounds like worthwhile reading, and I probably will read it some day, but fuck Quinn for his politics. I have seen taped interviews with him. He's another self-important ivory tower academic asshole who's happy to criticise everyone's privilege except his own. Primitivism = total bullshit. Don't buy any of it unless you want to deny that humans ARE better than other species, because: 1) evolution gave us more capable brains and abstract reasoning, for the ability to form our environment, rather than conform to it. We don't obey our genes or "natural selection", we have "artificial selection" based on abstract ideas like "human rights" for guys like Steven Hawking and Daniel Quinn. Humans choose their own destiny unlike any other animal. 2) Even if a small minority of humans are making the wrong choice for the rest of us for now, doesn't mean it's always going to be that way. 3) None of this guy's false solutions would exist without all the technology, mass media, etc. he doesn't like.

sucka (sucka), Friday, 5 September 2003 03:52 (twenty-two years ago)

one month passes...
i read this book a while ago,and had a similar reaction to ben's
i would really like to read a detailed counter arguement...
i don't know about the authors politics,but one of the points made in the book is something that should at least be discussed-ie,if we are the only species ever to come even close to irreprably damaging not only our individual environment but the entire planet,surely that makes humanity the least advanced species,not the most....
and shouldn't we be thinking about this?
like ben,i was a bit cynical about the book,i mean the guy is a truly awful writer,he can barely string a sentence together,but the arguement he makes is certainly interesting....
has no one else read this?

robin (robin), Sunday, 12 October 2003 20:55 (twenty-two years ago)

three months pass...
I just started this book, and am about to finish it by throwing it in the trash. Daniel Quinn has succesfully brewed up a rediculous idea and thrown it into this book. His theorys are basically bullshit. He may have influenced a few people, but as for me, I'm only reassured in my own views. I'm only a junior in highschool, and it appears to me that Quinn is attempting to be a philosopher by writing a stupid book full of falsehoods. Read this book, and you'll be stupider because of it.

Krista Speicher, Thursday, 29 January 2004 22:28 (twenty-two years ago)

This comment has a certain je ne sais quoi.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 30 January 2004 02:37 (twenty-two years ago)

one year passes...
This (Daniel Quinn's Ishmael) has got me thinking about this The Last Emergency: theories about what the "oil peak" could do to us in the coming years. has got me thinking about this Daniel Quinn's Ishmael...

dave225 (Dave225), Thursday, 14 April 2005 17:20 (twenty years ago)

i read that book in middle school. it had a big effect on me, the "oh wow my world has been turned upside-down by this crazy idea" sort. then i came to college and started studying anthropology and realized how impractical the idea that we could or should go back to that is.

Maria (Maria), Friday, 15 April 2005 04:11 (twenty years ago)

I saw the dumb Sean Connery/Cuba Gooding flick that was based on this.

Hurting (Hurting), Friday, 15 April 2005 04:14 (twenty years ago)

ouch
sean connery beats women
keep him away from my teenage idealism :(

Maria (Maria), Friday, 15 April 2005 04:25 (twenty years ago)

The honors dean of one of the colleges at my school (Rutgers) made every honors freshman read Ishmael. She was great, but I was not in that college.

Hurting (Hurting), Friday, 15 April 2005 04:27 (twenty years ago)

We sort of had to read Ishmael for anthropology 101. I mean, we had to read The Other Side of Eden, talk about romanticizing hunter-gatherers. (I really enjoyed the book, though. And I wanted to go live with the Inuit. Snow and seal meat and super cool languages!)

Maria (Maria), Friday, 15 April 2005 04:31 (twenty years ago)

I'm always trying to get Scott to read this, but he's scared of it. I read it years and years ago. I'm not sure how it would stand up if I reread it now that I'm a cynical old lady.

Maria :D (Maria D.), Friday, 15 April 2005 09:52 (twenty years ago)

For some reason, the part that stuck with me was the comparison of farmers and nomads to Cain and Abel, respectively. Right around the same time I read a New Yorker article about Hutus and Tutsis in Rwanda that compared those tribes to Cain and Abel as well. I enjoyed that anthropological lens on bibilical stories.

Maria :D (Maria D.), Friday, 15 April 2005 11:35 (twenty years ago)


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