So... Science is bullshit? No. What?

Dude, remember that? It just happened.

That's a weird coincidence: my real name is Truth Hunter

here's where your "theory" breaks down.

"Contribute" is a moron afraid to read and challenge a single thing who resorted to bullshit to feel superior.

Surely in this context, caling any hypothesis 'bizarre' is somewhat beside the point, when any and each alternative is equally so, from another viewpoint

ok, i'll bite. let's say we do have to have a prime mover to make it all work. what does this mean? do i have to vote republican now?

-- g--ff

anyway i follow you but i'm out of my depth. but here's my stock answer: our inability to figure a thing out doesn't put us at the center of anything. our senses, language, and memory are not so hot, can't get a handle on it, maybe never? joke's on us then.

also I'm four-eyed and ugly.

As for the universal constants now that is an interesting point. Some of them are so finely balanced that surely they must be the work of a designer. But what if our universe is just one of many, our our universe, by chance is the one with the lucky constants, maybe there are millions of billion of universes where atoms don't even form and again we live in the lucky one.

It takes a great mental leap, and no less a leap of faith than a feckless creationist one, but I make that leap because a universe created by random chance, is more plausible and a whole lot more interesting that one created by another intelligence. If we have been created by another intelligence then that intelligence will be no more supernatural (more advanced of course) than we are and that begs the question; how did they come about? In the end it has to come down to random chance.

There was a great documentary series on channel 4 recently called 'What we still don't know', try seek it out on bittorent, it addressed a lot of these points far more lucidly than me.

As for this -- Among the unexplained mysteries of physics is why the physical constants of the Universe are what they are, specifically, why they are so particularly suited to the fostering of steady burning stars surrounded by planets containing lots of carbon, the one element that appears to be essential to the existence of life -- you're just reverse engineering and calling it God.

Except that the 0 to 1 equation doesn't exist at all in such a circumstance.In fact, it's nothing like it other than perhaps a vague social perception which is entirely emotional.

Right. Lock thread.

"Contribute" is a moron afraid to read and challenge a single thing who resorted to bullshit to feel superior.
Not at all. I think he was applying a sophisticated scientific monitoring device known as the Bullashit Detector.

Fer reals. It amazes and somewhat depresses me how few people I know are aware of/interested in what's going on in complexity theory. It seems like the most significant scientific theoretical work of our time, but apart from some poorly conceived buzzword applications in business consulting circles, it hasn't really bubbled through to the mainstream.

I know what I'm talking about.
Unfortunately, no.

Read this thread:
Qaballah - classic or dud

and regarding meaningful assemblage by chance:
link

I can't engage you in reasonable discussion about this because the stuff you've written is beyond nonsensical, so please don't bait me with "if you're so sure you're right, why won't you discuss this with me" rhetoric. One day if you learn math and science properly then you'll look back on what you wrote and understand what I'm talking about.

I also realize that math and science work great for isolated circumstances. There are ways to work around Gödel's incompleteness theorem, but not entirely. This means everything, such as emergent complexity, big bang, superstring theory, etc. are and will always be incomplete. The problem is always going to be that one unnecessary element in the equation. How do you get 1 from 0? You can't, but you can make up unfalsifiable claims about infinite density and infinite curvature and multiverses, if you want.

Keep on truckin'.

Read the thread, it's not all about Qabalah.

When you read things and attempt to absorb more than just the headlines, that's when learning begins.

I actually have read that post and find how it ended particularly hilarious: Oh lead CAN make gold? = threadkiller.

Now apply that "0=1" equation (a hypothetical "proof") to the universe.

Anyway who gives a flying fcuk about science? I came here to talk about music.

Science is not designed to answer questions that begin with 'why', except in terms of 'how'. If you continue to inquire into every scientific answer about 'why' a thing is so, the successive questions and their answers will inevitably be reduced to "Because we observe that this is so" or, even more simply, "We do not know."

For example, science may answer the question "Why are raindrops never the size of boxcars?" The answer would describe matters such as surface tension, wind speeds and the force of gravity. Ask why surface tension is as it is and the answer would speak of laws of physics. And so on.

If you ask (ask Queztioner did) "Why are the physical constants these values and not others", then you have simply reached the current position of the end of the tracks. It is perfectly fine to ask such questions, because they are what drive the extension of those tracks into new territories of knowledge. But to argue that the existance of an end to scientific knowledge invalidates science is, quite simply, bullshit.

All Queztioner has done is update the argument from design in contemporary terms. Not only does that argument have flaws you can drive a pantheon of gods through, but it cannot explain the first thing about the presumed designer of the universe other than to say (as science does) "look at the universe for answers".

I take the crux of Queztioner's true point to be this:

The best thing about a Qabalistic interpretation of reality is that it can account for biochemical complexity.

The same could be said in favor of an interpretation of reality that accounts for biochemical complexity by hypothesizing a powerful genie that lives in a bottle. The fact that Queztioner is satisfied with this accounting is mostly due to Queztioner's stopping questioning at the opportune moment.

This is not what I've said.

Quite true. But, substituting some primal form of consciousness for other hypotheticals such as multiverses or infinite density or what have you is not exactly different. Suppose you mathematically prove to everyone's satisfaction some eternal environment that gave rise to life. You still then are left with the question of consciousness: what is it and where does it come from? Electrochemical blips and nothing more? What is it? You've described the process, but what IS it?

My best advice is that you not rest content with the Qabbala. It is just one of the many marvelous wind-up toys created by the human mind. It isn't necessarily any better than Hinduism, for one example. If you work your way up to Zen, be glad. It is much calmer and entails much less waste heat.

gypsy mothra, complexity theory
In fact isn't ILE some sort of crude prototype of a model of how complexity theory works? Throw out a half-baked idea as a question, let the thousands of ILMers "self-organize," go to work, and a half-hour later, you have a long thread containing a very subtle discussion of the topic at hand. Naw, it's just a message board.

http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/01-06a-05.asp

My best advice is that you not rest content with the Qabbala. It is just one of the many marvelous wind-up toys created by the human mind. It isn't necessarily any better than Hinduism, for one example. If you work your way up to Zen, be glad. It is much calmer and entails much less waste heat.

True, true. Like I said, I am aware that Qabalah is nothing more than a guess. What surprises me is how well it seems to fit even regarding such modern concepts as quantum theory, the big bang and even multiverses. Perhaps it is just something strange about the concept of consciousness that will appear to work for any given scientific understanding. I am not suggesting the Qaballah as a literal truth, only that I don't see how science can eliminate the possibility by Occam's Razor when all perception is the result of subjective deductive reasoning. When we rely on two sets of logic for superpositions and position and flip out on a cosmic level into multi-dimensional abstraction to provide solutions, I see it in much the same light as the more detailed explanation I have regarding consciousness and quantum reality, which I have not yet posted.

Negative existence is a state of unaware consciousness which one might consider "dead" except that people experience this state everyday during profound meditation during which they "blank out" and "miss time"... but these people are not dead, they simply lost awareness of themselves.

Positive existence is the result of a preverbal thought in which consciousness becomes aware of itself. But, in order to be aware there needs to be a distinction of self from other. Imagine a blank sheet of paper as negative existence. No distinction. Now, on the sheet millimeters apart imagine the page filled with tiny dots. These dots represent positive existence, or the pattern through which the initial force moves through in order to realize itself. Each point, however, is necessary to maintain at once to sustain reality. And so, each point represents an individual positive existence. Where 2 dots agree they end is the space where matter is created and this is the substance of "quarks". The whole of reality is a sort of universal "contract" in which we agree about reality and the various permutations of consciousness we refer to as forces, particles, elements and matter. In this case, God wouldn't be anything like a typical sunday school interpretation and the world wouldn't have to be "perfect" in any other sense but a working sense. And best of all, no devil, no hell and no question of what the smallest unit is, where consciousness comes from or how the universe started... all without moral hang-ups.

The Longer version of Qaballah relating to Quantum Mechanics:

The universe is a void. In this, the state of Negative Esistence, the universe is without form, content or being-ness. There exists nothing, not even a Thot (preverbal "thought").

Suddenly, without any sequence in time, two beings emergy. They are without form. They are beings of infinite ability. They have just begun to demonstrate their ability by emitting the Thot that they exist. We are calling them John and Martha and they represent two "Quantum Gods" regardless of the sex that their names imply.

"Potential John" becomes John by having the Thot that he is. John's Thot, "I am," is his specific intentionality to be. In the act of having the Thot, his nature is changed. John is. "Potential Martha," by the same process, becomes.

The Thot "I am" is not only an intentionality to be. It is simultaneously, the intentionality to contact another. By having the Thot "I am" John brings himself into existence with respect to Martha. John and Martha are both being (by having the Thot "I am"), doing (by having the Thot), and relating (they have become with the intent to contact each other).

One Thot is worth a thousand words. The Thot "I am" includes the following: "I intend to exist with respect to you (Martha)." We could, at some point, hypothesize that in order for John and Martha to come into the same universe they must emit some additional Thots such as "Martha is" or "We are." But Thot has another aspect which has remained undefined until now. Thot has been defined as a specific intentionality or quantum of intent. This definition holds true when we are talking about a single individual and his Thot. But here we are talking about two individuals and the Thot that occurs between them. In this case our definition of Thot must be extended. Thot can now be defined as a one-sided view of a communication between Quantum Gods. Our first definition does not change. To both John and Martha, their Thot is still their intent. But Thot would not occur to either John or Martha if each were absolutely alone in the universe. The state of being alone, in the absolute sense, is the state of Negative Existence in which no one exists with respect to anyone else.

For John and Martha to exist in the same universe with each other they must both have the Same Thot (intention). In having the same Thot, John and Martha are duplicating each other's intent. A duplicated Thot brings John and Martha into common reality. They are now conscious of each other's presence.

( John )( Martha )

In the "diagram" above, the state of Negative Existence is represented by the white background. John and Martha represent 2 Quantum Gods. The arrows indicate their mutual emanation of the Thot "I am". The act of emitting this Thot, each to the other, brings the Quantum Gods into being with respect to each other. Each of them would experience a reflection of the other's thought "I am". John would experience Martha's Thot "I am" as if he were having the Thot "She is" and vice versa. But they are the same Thot. The duplicated Thot occurs between them and places them in the state of becoming, called Eheieh, represented by the parenthesis.

With the emanation of their first Thot a new element is introduced into the relationship between John and Martha, our two hypothetical Quantum Gods. Consciousness is a result of being in communication through the process of Thot duplication. Here I am not talking about normal waking consciousness in human beings, which I will refer to as awareness, but the most basic, primordial kind of consciousness. This primary consciousness is the consciousness of direct experience, unconditioned by the thoughts and feelings of the body-mind. In the state of Negative Existence there is no consciousness (no Thots are being emanated). At the same time, however, the being-ness of a Quantum God, while he is in Negative Existence is infinite. In moving into the first stage of Positive Existence (the state of Being), being-ness is in the process of being limited while consciousness is, simultaneously, being expanded.

When a Quantum God emits a Thot he invests his infinite being nature in it. Thot is an intent of his being and is composed of being-ness. Each Thot is a limited thing compared to his being nature. So, at first, his conscious nature is very limited with respect to his being nature. But the act of contacting another is a purposeful one. John and Martha are on the way to building up a consciousness of each other's being natures. In other words, their first duplicated Thot which made them conscious of each other's presence is the first step in a process of consciousness-evolution, which is evolving toward the point when John and Martha can be fully conscious of each other's (and their own) being nature.

Their method of conscious evolution is the development of a medium through whch they can demonstrate their natures, each to the other, and, at the same time, to themselves. The medium is duplicated Thot, the only method they have to contact each other.

In summary, some important key ideas can be extracted from the preceding:

1. Thot, in the active mode, is a quantum of specific intentionality to communicate something to another; Thot in the receptive mode, is a one-sided view of a communication between two or more Quantum Gods.

2. Consciousness is the state of having a Thot which is being duplicated by another individual. Consciousness arises when two or more Quantum Gods are in communication through Thot.

3. Reality is the result of Thot duplication between Quantum Gods. The Thot of just one Quantum God would be unreal to any Quantum God who is not duplicating it.

4. Understanding occurs when the Thot of one Quantum God is duplicated by another.

5. Quantum Gods communicate with each other only through choice (Thot is intent).

6. The intent to become conscious of another, i.e. experience another is the basic principle of "love."

John and Martha are now in a state of becoming. Although they are both conscious that the other exists, neither of them is conscious of their own nature or the nature of the other. They are aware of each other's presence but nothing more. They can not show themselves or demonstrate their ability to each other since their being-ness remains without limits and therefore has no differentiation or substantiability. They cannot even locate themselves with respect to each other. They must somehow limit and define their being-ness in order to communicate further. They must begin to communicate in a particular (particle-like) way.

Matter is the Medium: Being is the Message

The matter-1 Quantum
John emits the Thot "It is." Martha duplicates his Thot with her own Thot "It is." The duplicated Thot of is-ness creates primary matter-1. Matter-1 is duplicated Thot. Primary matter is not a particle but a singularity of being-ness, or a point of intersection between two or more Thots of it-is-ness. It occurs at the point of contact between Quantum Gods.

(John)---->* B-----> C---->

The Thot that locations of a matter-1 quantum are sequential creates the quality of matter called mass. It is a requirement that a matter-1 quantum, going from point A to point C, must "travel" through point B (see diagram above). The matter quantum can no longer disappear at any location and reappear at another in a random fashion. It must now move through discrete locations in time and space. Mass and motion are two aspects of the Thot that locations of a matter-1 quantum are sequential. The matter-1 quantum now has a trajectory or path that it must follow.

The Thot of sequential locations affects time as well as space. Primary time (time-1) is simply undifferentiated is-ness. Time-2 is a unit of time analogous to an instant and indicates synchronicity (everything happening at once). Now, time-3 comes into being as a sequence of instants or a series of events in a continuum with respect to an observer. This is what we ordinarily refer to when think of time.

Mass ties time, space, and energy into a Gordian knot. Space and time are now inextricably linked to each other as a matter-1 quantum must now move through increments in both. All the aspects of time, space, energy, and mass are integrated into new behavior patterns for a matter-1 quantum. The introduction of mass into the space sphere creates physical constants and laws which will be followed as a matter evolves in complexity. The elements of motion, momentum, directionality and relative size came into being as aspects of the new order of things.

The matter-1 quantum is a true elementary particle. It has no internal structure. It gives rise to, but is not subject to, the known forces of physics. It therefore satisfies the criteria of the quark, the much sought-after cornerstone of the physical universe.

The Forces of the Physical World
The Relationship between Mass and Energy
Let us assume that the locations which a matter-1 quantum can occupy are evenly distributed throughout a non-expanding space. Let us assume further that we have a hoop or circle of fixed diameter and that we can place it over a cross-section of space. The hoop would overlay a certain number of locations which would fall on its circumference. The number of locations would be constant no matter where we placed the hoop. Now, let us place the hoop around a 'fixed' location in space and let space and the hoop begin to expand. The situation would look something like the dots in this here Clip Candy logo:

http://www.synapsecommunicationspvtltd.com/grfx/snaplogo-clipcandy.gif
(best concentric circles diagram I could find with expanding dots, but obviously it would be full concentric circles with points expanding out into space).

The small circles represent probable locations as space expands uniformly in time. Since the locations are non-dimensional points, they do not expand but as they move out from the center the distance between each of them and the center increases.

The velocity of a matter-1 quantum is constant, exceeding the "speed of light" (see following description of light). Let us see what happens to the energy-mass characteristics of a matter-1 quantum as it is placed in orbit in one of the concentric circles of the diagram.

The amount of energy characteristic that a matter-1 quantum has is directly proportional to the distances between the positions that it is moving through. The amount of mass characteristic that a matter-1 quantum has is directly proportional to the number of positions that it travels through in a given period of time.

A matter-1 quantum moving in an outer orbit at a constant speed would exhibit more energy characteristics than one in a smaller orbit since the distances between the positions in a large orbit are greater. The same matter-1 quantum travelling in a small orbit would, conversely, exhibit more mass characteristics than one in a larger orbit because it would be traveling through more positions in an equivalent period of time.

If a matter-1 quantum were to change from one orbit to another, its mass-energy characteristics would change accordingly. A matter-1 uantum jumping from a larger orbit to a smaller orbit would shed some of its energy characteristics and take on more mass characteristics.

Thus mass and energy are convertible factors. They are not really two different things but two aspects of the conditioned behavior of a matter-1 quantum.

Let us assume that the mass and energy characteristics of a matter-1 quantum tend to stabilize at some distance from a hypothetical center around which it is orbiting. We can imagine this as happening in one of two ways' the matter-1 quantum is simply orbiting its center at a fixed distance forming a shell around its center; or it might oscillate from its center, filling the space between the center and its outermost shell. In the second case it would spiral outward to its orbit of stability and back again to its center.

http://www.hacc.edu/PROGRAMS/Divisions/CASS/GlassProgram/Step9/spiral.jpg

The matter-1 quantum would appear to spiral out from center to an outside observer. The direction of spin would be determined by the velocity and proximity of other matter-1 quanta in the sphere of space.

As the matter-1 quantum spirals out from center it will reach a distance from the center where its energy and mass characteristics are balanced with its space-time context. The matter-1 quantum would then be occupying the first quantum shell. In order to conserve its momentum it must begin to spiral inward again. The matter-1 quantum is now an oscillating spiral with respect to a 'fixed' center. Since the center is moving as well as the matter-1 quantum, the spiral is not flat but is stretched out in space and time to form a vortex. The vortex formed by the outward spiralling is balanced by the cortex formed by the inward spiralling. Since the double vortex is held within the quantum shell it takes the form of a sphere whose surface is described by the expanding and contracting spiral path of a matter-1 quantum.

The Sub-atomic Particle
The motion of a spiralling matter-1 quantum describes a sphere with respect to an outside observer moving at a slower speed.

http://tetraspace.alkaline.org/2ndto3rd12.jpg
http://www.refsum.org/images/artworks/2001-meditation/sphere-in-use_spiral-l.jpg

(Hopefully one of those images shows up and gets the point across.)

The non-dimensional matter-1 quantum is now forming a particle of matter, a wave packet of matter, perhaps what we call a sub-atomic particle. From the outside, the observer sees a particle and not the matter-1 quantum which creates the particle. This is because his rate of observation is in sequential time (time-3), while the matter-1 quantum itself remains in time-1.

The quantum shell it occupies defines the size of the particle as well as its mass-energy characteristics. The shell is a circumference which intersects all probable locations at which the mass-energy characteristics of a matter-1 quantum tend to be stable in a particular location in space.

At some point within a particular observational context, the wave packet would stabilize for a period of time, forming the first harmonic or first quantum shell. It would then be forming something like a three dimensional standing wave with respect to the observer. It would then act as a primary particle in interaction with others of its kind.

The domain the wave packet-particle occupies (its volume), its mass-energy characteristics, frequency, wavelength, amplitude, spin, relative polarity (or charge), are dependent on the proximity and configurations of all other particles in the space sphere and the influence of the technique and equipment used to observe it.

Under special circumstances, collisions may occur between symmetrical pairs of wave packet-particles which force them both to revert to their original state as matter-1 quanta. This gives rise to the observed phenomenon of particle-antiparticle annihilation.

The Strong and Weak Nuclear "Forces"
We must also take into account the fact that all particles are affected by all other particles. To add to the complexity of the situation consider that a particle can be spiralling in one of two directions, its motion with respect to other particles can be taking place at differing directions and speeds, its axis of symmetry can be at any angle, and it may spin around its axis while it moves in any orbit. In addition, orbits would be distorted into ellipses. All these permutations have their effects on the behavior of particles and this gives rise to the complex nature of sub-atomic physics.

Particles occupying quantum shells near the center act relatively strongly with each other. They would also contain more mass characteristics than particles occupying shells further out. These effects are reffered to as the weak and strong nuclear "forces." They are not forces at all, but the result of the space-time geometry already described.

(hope all those diagrams work and that I did not forget to close a tag somewhere)...

These "Thots" represented above follow the Qaballistic Tree of Life in order of proper succession from I AM to the 10th Sephira, the World of Matter. However, I have stopped at the subatomic level. What I have left to extrapolate on are: The Atom, The Particle vs. The Wave, Temperature, Speed of Light, Gravity, Relative Time and Evolution, but I figured I would stop here for now.

Actually, those arrow diagrams took out entire sections: Time, Space and Energy.

Never mind. I'll post it on a blog somewhere.

Those urges and instincts are what I'm talking about, by the way, actually even more basic urges and instincts than you perhaps are referring to.

Here's a nice and tidy version:

http://qbertblog.blogspot.com/

Because of the other Qaballah thread about Madonna. I thought perhaps some people would be interested in it and I wanted to see what the scientists thought of it particularly, although I figured about what kind of response I would get, which is why I prefaced with the big long first post. Although, to be honest, I would not have posted at all, probably, if I was not drunk the original first night. I do not usually share stuff like this with anyone. But, online, I can be anyone I want for the moment and then quickly forget about it and move on with my life.

The HTML-izer of ILX chewed up Time, Space, Energy and MASS!

Without those sections, a large chunk of the above is missing and it really isn't even understandable how I got from "John and Martha" to the sub-atomic level.

(Which is to say, why was Ken L. name-checking NYC high schools at the start of this thread?)

-- youn (younno...), January 11th, 2005.

Nice! With my book, I think you get some nice happy-faced quanta in there and joke it up a bit... kid's love it.

ha, well yeah to both. Any self-organizing system is a potential complex model, but it's the complexity that makes the difference. ILX isn't omplex or dense enough to demonstrate the more interesting properties of complex systems. Its connections too few and too predictable. You need the combination of density and unpredictable connections. There's one branch of complexity theorists who see the whole entire Internet as sort of a great complex system in the making -- a nascent hive mind -- but plenty of skeptics who think the Internet will obviously have real and unforeseen effects but who shy away from Matrix-like brain analogies. What's most interesting to me about complexity theory is the idea of a sort of universal self-organizing principle, the flipside of entropy -- a tendency for things to organize that exists in concert with the tendency for things to fall apart. And I like the observation that the most successful systems are organized from the ground up, and are necessarily flexible and adaptable to changing conditions. And more than the fact that I like the ideas, it's how commonsensical it all is -- you can see complex adaptive systems all around, from the micro to the macro. I like thinking about the universe that way, as a (possibly endless) series of overlapping systems interacting with each other.

For instance, in my model, this "tendency to organize" and "tendency to fall apart" is something that I illustrated using basic awareness of spatial relationships between 2 or more various points in space. This relationship naturally evolves until it reaches the quantum level.

The matter-1 quantum is a true elementary particle. It has no internal structure. It gives rise to, but is not subject to, the known forces of physics. It therefore satisfies the criteria of the quark, the much sought-after cornerstone of the physical universe.

Under special circumstances, collisions may occur between symmetrical pairs of wave packet-particles which force them both to revert to their original state as matter-1 quanta. This gives rise to the observed phenomenon of particle-antiparticle annihilation.

excellent troll. ok not really. but in other news about science they've gone and built a 32 MEGAJOULE RAILGUN for the US NAVY which is pretty awesome until you figure that 32 megajoules is what we normally get out of a liter of gasoline these days

and yes everybody reads slashdot and boing boing I know etc

How long before we can routinely deploy Gauss cannons?

http://www.charrette.parroom.net/Atelier%20Iimages/minisamples/marauder.jpg

Zentradi officer pod models always had the best Gauss cannon-lookng thing in Battletech.

Unfortunately, my half-painted and untouched-for-12-years Marauder did not survive the continental trip out west.

over-prepared troll. jeez. all he had to say was, "jeez guys, science ain't perfect either. qed."

I think my favorite rule in the entire world is "the burden of proof is on the claimant." It is beautiful in its sensible fairness.