Closet Sluts - C/D/WTF?!?!

That being said Sam is totally OTM.

And I have no doubt that her openness puts me in the "friend zone". That's a given and I really have no problems with that. What I'm questioning is my shock to what she told me. I mean I knew that there are women are there like that but nevertheless being confronted head on with one made me very uncomfortable. So I've have been in a total WTF mood since then.

...Unless she did that on purpose to turn me off. (If that's the case she did a good job.)

If I had to guess, I'd say inexperience has a lot to do with it--both in terms of your lack of exposure to sex, and perhaps to women who discuss sex openly. A guy making equally explicit comments might have made you uncomfortable too, but maybe not as uncomfortable? I also wonder whether you would have made the same moral judgments about him (e.g. "slut," "whore").

I don't think it makes you a bad guy--lots of men find sexual aggressiveness very unnerving and even scary in women, and I imagine doubly so if you have not experienced and sorted that part of life for yourself. At least you're analyzing it and trying to figure it out.

Of course, there is a difference between speaking frankly about sex with a friend and bragging about sexual experiences in extreme detail to appear experienced and sexy, or to make the listener feel inexperienced and prudish. It doesn't sound like you're that close with the girl, so her comments do seem a bit inappropriate--but by the same token at the same time I know plenty of guys who talk way dirtier than that in public on a regular basis.

Would you have had the same reaction were it a guy?

And why is this thread titled "closet slut' - she's obviously very open about this whole "slut" thing she has going.
The fact that you had to use the term "slut" in the title indicates (to me) that there is some sort of misogynistic basis for your reaction.

mega xpost
and could you get her # for me?

she sounds at least as fucked up as you are if its any consolation.

the only similar exp i've had was w/ a self-labelled 'stripper' (but obv a crackhead prostitute [poss both but i kinda doubt it]) who badgered me for money & repeatedly brought up her supposed occupation while called me a 'sweetie' & asking me how i felt abt strippers & had i ever been to a strip club & did i want to go etc etc. but she was clearly in need of serious help. sounds like there could be something _vaguely_ similar going on w/ yr girl or maybe she's just plain mean or maybe she thinks yr gay or maybe she's just insensitive, you'll have to figure it out for yrself.

xpost yeah i don't get the "closet slut" thing either.

xpost hahaha

For instance, you were shocked to hear her talk about her exes' cocks. But if you had dated and slept with a few people, you would probably (1) know what it's like to have comparative thoughts about different people's sex bits, plus (2) be comfortable with the idea that other people have seen your sex bits, and have seen other people's as well, and may have their own thoughts about them all. You wouldn't necessarily make it a topic of bar conversation, because that's just socially weird, but you'd probably be more comfortable dealing with those kinds of things -- because you'd connect them to natural experience, not something hidden and sordid.

From your description of the bar conversation, it doesn't sound like she was hitting on you -- it actually sounds like she's maybe a little insecure/unsteady about sex and is trying to be very big and bold in the face of it. It sounds like bravado. (It probably helped that it made you uncomfortable -- she could feel even braver and bolder about it.)

How on earth did you find out about her 'exes' penis size.

Do tell!

You know, Nabisco, I really appreciate the way you're always so sincere and reassuring in these threads even when most everyone else has jumped straight to mockery.

-- Thermo Thinwall

Can we discuss these two differing points of view? My reaction to this was (and would have been) the same as Thermo Thinwall's, but the reality always ends up being Miss Misery's interpretation. Why is it OK for girls to do this? Doesn't rationality, social norms, etc. say somewhere that sexual talk among single similar-aged strangers = conversational foreplay?

There's probably no real answer to this, but it just annoys me that women have this loophole going.

xpost

I still think she was just trying to be big and impressive and daring. And possibly overcompensating for some sexual insecurity or even a flicker of prudishness that she was working on stamping out.

I think Nabisco's right on this one--not necessarily. If the person is giving off flirtatious signals in additional to the discussion of sex, it's reasonable to interpret it as a come on. If that person is merely speaking matter-of-factly, no. Discussing sex is not innately flirtatious, particularly is there is some established friendship/acquaintance. The problem can lie in the listener becoming so titillated at the mere mention of SEX that they jump to the conclusion that the other person wants them, and don't bother paying attention to far more important non-verbal signals.

Actually it's just occurred to me why that difference might exist!

Most teenage girls are in a position where they can get into sexual situations if they want to -- only those situations involve a lot of judgment and self-protecting and risk. So I think teenage girls learn to talk to their friends about sex, as a way of collecting information and support for their decision-making.

Whereas most teenage guys are in a position where getting sexual-type action is this epic feat, to which a lot of self-value stuff is attached. So apart from "how do we get chicks" conversations, guys don't develop ways to talk about sex, and mostly either make things up and brag or avoid the topic for fear of revealing that they're "behind."

Those are vast generalizations about straight people and every word is used advisedly, but still. It's still weird to me to think that women can have sex with someone and then immediately get in touch with friends to discuss how it went -- I can't even imagine how a guy would begin to bring that up with a guy friend. Or at least not without running into a whole lot of self-consciousness about sounding like a jerk (and a more stupid self-consciousness about sounding like a girl).

There is also some hetero-sex-as-male-performance stuff going on here, which allows women to be like "so I saw this movie ... wasn't very good" whereas guys would be left with two less-appealing options: either "I made a movie and it is AWESOME" or "umm what movie? I don't make movies."

Jerry: Nothin' much. I slept with Elaine last night.

George: Oxygen! I need some oxygen! This is major.

Jerry: I thought you'd like that.

George: Oh, this is huge!

Jerry: I know.

George: All right, okay. Let's go, details.

Jerry: No, I can't do details.

George: You wha?

Jerry: I can't give details.

George: No details?

Jerry: I'm not in the mood.

George: You ask me to have lunch, tell me you slept with Elaine, and then say you're not in the mood for details. Now you listen to me. I want details and I want them right now. I don't have a job, I have no place to go. You're not in the mood? Well you get in the mood!

Without belittling your unease, let me say that a lot of the feelings you're experiencing will not make any sense to you until you become sexually active. And what you'll likely find is that sexual arousal & desire exist in their own world, one that may only be tenuously connected to everyday life. I'm not even necessarily thinking of kink here, more just the idea that (to paraphrase your last post) one could like someone enough to want to get naked with that person.

Moreover, I can empathize with your concerns about misogny, because I used to struggle with the same internal dialogue until a women I was dating explained something I'd missed: heterosexual desire does not immediately equate with misogyny. Or, to quote her: "You can't rape the willing".

and therefore, far from "meaningless"

Anyways, thanks for the help and advice.

What do you mean by this? That she can't be a mom & sexually active?

Lurker: are you capable of getting over your initial aversion to this woman and having some kind of casual friendship with her? Because it seems to me that if she's open enough to tell you about her sex life, then she's likely open enough to listen to you talk about your virginity, and maybe even help you get out of your shell a little. (No, I don't mean you should try to convince her to deflower you! But it seems to me that you've never had a real, live, out-loud conversation with another human being about this, and maybe she would be a good place to start...)

No, because it would harder for her to understand me. If she is going to call another sexual partner a fucktoy, chances are that she's not going to have the patience to deal with a virgin.

"Lurker: are you capable of getting over your initial aversion to this woman and having some kind of casual friendship with her? Because it seems to me that if she's open enough to tell you about her sex life, then she's likely open enough to listen to you talk about your virginity, and maybe even help you get out of your shell a little."

I was actually thinking about that...

Oh yeah did I forget to add that she's the half sister of a modest selling folk artist from the Pacific Northwest?

You never know dood. Maybe she's up for the challenge. Maybe she's up for the conqest. Mabybe she wants to tap your whiny ass with a strap on.

Fucktoy isn't that big a deal...I'm failing to understand what's so shocking about a woman (or anyone) using this term to describe a...fucktoy.

Lurker, please get some, it doesn't matter what kind. It will be good for you.

Um, I don't know if you're an asshole trying to bait me, but for the benifit of no one, I'll explain. When everyone was of learning about sex as teenagers, I spend my time indoors teaching my self how to draw, reading Mad magazine and books by Woody Allen, filing my record collection and watching Tarkovsky films. I spent so much my time growing up inside my own head that all my refrences were too personal and not 'real world' based. This prevented me from relating to others and vice versa. Whenever I tried to reach out to others, they mis understood my actions to be 'creepy', no matter how good my intentions were. Thus, no close friends and no girls (and no sex). It's a uphill battle, although one I feel I can win.

"I'm failing to understand what's so shocking about a woman (or anyone) using this term to describe a...fucktoy."

My problem with this is that the term dehumanizes the person in question, no matter what gender uses it. It's no better IMHO than a guy calling a girl a 'bitch' or 'ho'.

But, hey, thanks for making me feeling more of an outcast.

...or a slut, presumably.

4x xpost

HI DERE, as they say. But look, there's plenty of time to make it up.

When some guy at work is telling me how he nearly broke some poor girl in half or how she couldn't couldn't walk straight for a week, I just want to punch him in the face.

And okay, right, this kind of conversation is often k-lame and shitty, but it's also true that people like your new female friend may be sitting in the bar the next night saying "that was INCREDIBLE, I won't be able to walk straight for a week."

In other words, don't get too caught up in this idea that sex is a fragile uber-emotional experience that requires the utmost respect and sensitivity between parties -- that's all TRUE(ish) and a good thing all round, but there are also those who are comfortable enough in the sexual realm that it doesn't have to be that way for them. And since you're a virgin, it makes total sense and is completely natural for that kind of attitude to seem totally foreign to you -- but don't assume that's it's always strictly some giant act of shittiness on everyone else's part to occasionally be more casual about this.

After being prodded about it, yes. Why should you have assumed any differently about this girl?

I don't know anything about her, she could be a horrible example of a human being and you might've been right to have been bothered by her demeanor--I wasn't there. It just seems a bit...off...to still continue to argue that "fucktoy" is weird and inappropriate when there might have been a "perfectly clear" reason as to why she'd use that term and it'd be wholly fine and ok.

Nicole, my closet is disgusting, you don't want to talk about it. I really need to straighten up.

Unfortunately, I assumed that after this stage my life may feature at least semi-regular (we're talking months and years here) sex. Jesus was ever I wrong :(

My take on this is, maybe you just don't like dirty talk?! Was it the language or the content that offended you most?

what about "libertine"? (doesn't have the pejorative connotation, at least)

I mean, sure, "I totally WRECKED this chick" rhetoric is super lame and usually just makes me imagine that the chick in question was terrifically bored and will not return any subsequent phone calls the guy might make -- but point is there are a whole lot of ways that people who fully respect one another can enjoy sex in a mutually satisfying way that doesn't have to be incredibly burdened with vulnerabilities and risks. Which may be hard to imagine when you're a virgin, since the whole issue of sex is surrounded with vulnerability and risk -- and which may not seem appealing to people who like that aspect of sex and like finding the right person to deal with that aspect -- but isn't the sole option, I'm saying.

Being a virgin in your mid-20s is not the end of the world. Assuming that you attach meaning or emotion to sex, it's far better to sleep with too few people than too many. Man, if I could go back to high school or college and start over, I'd spend a lot less time agonizing over sex and relationships and way more time having fun with my friends and pursuing my interests.

I can understand feeling left out of the club if you haven't had sex, as it is an important (but optional) part of adult life, but it's certainly not the most important part. Lurker has a totally clean slate and no crippling emotional baggage from years of failed relationships, and when he does have his first sexual relationship, he won't have any of that to deal with. Maybe it's not the ideal situation for a lot of guys, but it doesn't sound so awful to me.

And so yeah, the important thing is to kind of shed that "other" baggage and keep in mind that people treat sex in all kinds of different ways, and being a twenty-something virgin is generally fine and not even that strange, and there are lots of different kinds of women out there, some of them with approaches to sex that will be completely compatible with Lurker's.

(This summary of the plot of The 40-Year-Old Virgin brought to you by)

I still don't understand the thread title. Especially the the "closet" bit. I mean, how was this girl in the closet?

WHY: everyone else was doing it?

I personally have no objections to being the right person's 'fucktoy', a good hard shag sometimes being just the thing, but it's not a word I would bandy about will-nilly with someone if I didn't know them well enough to be sure they wouldn't take it entirely seriously. I think it's comendable Lurker worries about his potential for misogyny, but being repulsed by one woman does not equal a hatred of women in general, and there are enough types of men and women out there that everybody should have at least a fighting chance of finding someone roughly compatible even given every individual's foibles and idiosyncracies.

Unlike what movies tell you, you could actually just spill "wow, I'm actually a virgin!" to her with little chance of getting a weird stigma. It'll likely be more shocking to her than anything she's said to you since she probably thinks she's completely within the norm.

"A good hard shag sometimes being just the thing"

I used to have a friend, when I was in high school, who used to get laid by older girls by pretending like he was a virgin.

It's not the case that you just have a "clean slate". However, having perspective on it all and trying not to worry, or make it the be-all and end-of of things in your life helps a bit. It's still not easy though (but hardly crippling unless you let it be, upsetting occasionally? of course) unfortunately... relationships still tend to be the things that help you deal with the idea of relationships better than anything else (words, books, advice).