Sonic Youth: Classic or Dud/S&D?

Search: Bad Moon Rising, Evol (****), Sister (***** - if I had another star, it would get 6 stars, it is that classic!!!), Goo, and about 15 to 20 minutes of Dirty

Destroy: Daydream Nation, the rest of Dirty and everything else that followed up until about NYC Ghosts & Flowers, which basically scrapes by with a ***

I do actually *love* a great deal of Sonic Youth's eirie, spacey, alien, wonky, warped, blissful music. However, also DESTROY: the *entire* NYC Sonic Youth Cult Of Art and all the pretentious jazzwankers who hang out at the Cooler wishing they could be Lee Renaldo. You're not. Now shave off the chin-rag and go home.

Oh, GAWD, why didn't I think of Sonic Youth back in the "Love the band, hate the image" thread?

No, it's a sentiment I've seen expressed a fair bit, but I'd disagree with it myself.

On Sonic Youth, I'm pretty much a spouter of the conventional indie- rock wisdom. Evol/Sister/Daydream Nation : five star classic. Dirty/Goo : grand poppier stuff but with loss experimental edge. Post- Dirty: good bits very good but the more self-consciously experimental bits don't rock enough to match up to the pop stuff. Pre-Evol: interesting, but don't listen to it that much.

The other album I REALLY like is 'Dirty'. SY diehards may not agree, and it does feel like a step towards the 'mainstream', which is what I really like about it, I guess. Search for "Theresa's Sound World", but it's all great.

I lost interest after Dirty - I always intend to pick up some of the 90's albums cheap, and never do.

Destroy : Bad Moon Rising and the awful Death Valley '69.

"NYC Sonic Youth Cult Of Art": to be fair, this shd be "Cult of the NYC Sonic Youth Cult Of Art", cuz to them — as opposed to their disciples? — it's like "Madonna, George Maciunas, Meat Puppets? it's all rock'n'roll to me"

If anyonae but SY had produced Silver Sessions, they would have been brilliant. As it is, avoid them. DV69 is indeed great, with Lunch at the height of her spotty powers.

They're the worlds most overground underground band, bless 'em. Classic I suppose. Daydream Nation is great precisely because the sprawl dilutes the attitude until wimps like me don't want to slap them any more. For the 'real thing' I'd take Bad Moon Rising just for "Brave Men Run (In My Family)". EVOL and Sister are good, yeah yeah, never actually listen to them though. After DN they almost turn into a singles band for a bit - "Dirty Boots" is mainstream and ace, "Kool Thing" is apalling, "100%" and "Youth Against Fascism" are the brilliant sound of them trying SO HARD to sell out, and then they didn't manage it and I've kind of lost track now.

I like songs like 'Silver Rocket' but the fact is, I don't believe Sonic Youth. Don't they make the kind of music you should be driven to by DESPERATION? And does anyone really believe they are desperate?

Search: "Brave Men Run", Daydream Nation, "Dirty Boots", Dirty, Washing Machine

Destroy: most of EVOL and Goo (to me, both the epitome of generic indie rock of their respective eras), Lydia Lunch, Lee's vox

Anybody seen SY live recently? I last saw them in the mid 90s and they were remarkably good ... Couldn't believe the number of people who walked out on them during the prolonged squalls of white noise & feedback. And does anyone remember the South Bank Show that was split between Daydream Nation era SY, & Spillane era John Zorn - Now *that* was entertainment ... I'm still pissed off at myself for taping over it 14 years ago.

BTW, who was their greatest drummer? Bob Bert or Steve Shelley?

If I'm anything to go by, the indie hordes knew full well that EVOL and Sister were meant to be "the *classic*" albums and avoided them for just that reason. How punky of us.

Or is this a continuation of the fallacy that punke rocke somehow equals the GENUINE WORKING CLASS MOVEMENT OF THE PEOPLE?

The most cutting edge music comes not from desperation, but from boredom. A good deal of Sonic Youth- like the two movements they helped inspire (shoegazing in the UK and grunge in the US) - had far less to do with desperation, than longing for transcendance from boredom.

And oh yes, Ciccone Youth kick ass. Especially the video- which I bet really was recorded in one of those Boardwalk "Star In Your Own Video!" type places so common in the late 80s...

SEARCH: I'm ever-so undiscriminating abt my SY recs - like 'em all, pretty much - but I'd put in a special word for Lee Ranaldo's contributions: the group's leading experimentalist turns out to be their most conventionally romantic/moving songwriter! And I dig his singing more than Thurston or Kim's.

DESTROY: If pushed, the first alb and ' Washing Machine', the latter a sort of compromise between the pseudo-blues of 'Experimental Jet Set' (their most underrated alb) and the post-rock sprawl of 'Thousand Leaves'. And much as I like some of his discs, am puzzled as to why Jim O'Rourke has now become the fifth member of SY, and playing bass of all things. Saying that I'm looking forward to the upcoming SY/JO 'modern classical' gig at the RFH - just to see HOW they go abt it, if nothing else - and I've read somewhere that on the night they're going to be joined by John Zorn and Anthony Braxton - can this be true?

I tend to think that when it came to fried, weird punk/Krautrock/whatever music, Trumans Water's first few albums make for better listening these days than the bulk of SY's material. Feels fresher, somehow.

I never got into Sonic Youth because I hated all the people I knew who liked them, and because I hated what little I heard from them. I've heard a bit more lately, and file them firmly in the category of bands whose appeal I can understand, but that I'm still not very interested in. The guitar "wash" is so lethargic and half-assed, without any real intensity. Maybe I'll appreciate them when I'm thirty. Maybe it's one of those things where "you just had to be there". Maybe not.

But do you really think Sonic Youth even seem bored? Most of their songs sound like they're supposed to be 'intense' and those that reflect a kind of ennui, such as Teenage Riot, seem just as contrived as their contrived intensity. There's no foothold - they always seem to be able to maintain control - in fact, they seem to have to maintain control even when they DON'T want to. Therefore, no possibility of identification with them. Too closed. Agree with Dave M. above.

"have you ever been listening to _washing machine_ and felt you were in the presence of a superior being?"

"when i was 17, man, all the time."

i feel only pity for all those who do not believe and more for those who are too cool to still believe.

When I was 17, playing Sister would result in the feeling of being in the presence of a higher power. So how can something like Washing Machine affect me?

make no mistake, they redefined the guitar. they didn't simply dumb down branca for rock audiences (which someone could argue the velvets did re lamonte young), they added their own signature with new prepared guitar textures and tunings and ecstatic dissonant climaxes. they went from the post-pil jamming on the first ep to the mix of hardcore punk and no wave and dark noise on the first album to the industrial grind/shimmer of bad moon rising to the blissful intimate genderfuck of evol (generic??? want to argue that case?) to the rock-from-another-planet of sister. vocals and lyrics added a twisted but relevant dimension. and that's just the 80s.

ignoring daydream nation, which i've discussed elsewhere (read that thread, kate?), they continued to signify when they went mainstream. despite their numerous obvious errors, they continued to make inspiring work. dirty is not at all a watering down of any of their ideas. the instrumental breaks are constructed entirely differently than in their other work. the noise is used entirely in the service of abrasive, challenging songs. and how it is used! they have continued to display moments of genius in their post- washing machine work. they have unfortunately released a glut of product in recent years, only some of it as exciting as their best work. yet to simply dismiss the band, as it has become fashionable to do in indie circles (cf smiths backlash in uk), is just absurd. the best parts of goodbye 20th century are truly great.

pinefox: if it was anything like their montreal set last summer, it must have been divine. could you explain exactly what you dislike about public enemy, sonic youth, and iron maiden? anything beyond "tunelessness?" i am genuinely curious. i'm not even sure that tunefulness is the primary appeal of "to here knows when" or even "suffer little children."

My Sonic Youth Top Five:

1. Sister
2. Bad Moon Rising
3. "Kool Thing" (only really great if you read the Kim Gordon profile of LL Cool J for Spin, which inspired it)
4. Experimental Jet Set, Trash and No Star
5. Goodbye 20th Century

I'm actually shocked nobody brought up that last one, whether pro or con. I think it's fantastic, really beautiful in parts and really ugly/beautiful in others. Much better than any "regular" album they've put out since Goo.

Oh and Phil, do you know where I can find that LL profile?

Oh wow have never seen a copy of this anywhere other than the radio station I DJed at. It really does have some amazing stuff on it.

lol of course WTJU had one

I treasure my copy for sure

Yep hah hah! I have looked at most record stores I have visited over the years and have never seen a copy in the wild.

I don't think I have either, I bought mine on release

Ah cool.

I remember when I was researching my SY book Paul Smith of Blast First telling me he pressed up the boot to make SY some extra money, because he thought it was immoral that Thurston and Kim had to work at a photocopy shop to make rent and that they should be able to live off their music, and that's why he did the boot. but they heard about it before he could explain that to them, and they thought he was ripping them off, and he reckoned it caused a profound crack in their friendship.

Thurston had hevay flu at the ICA show that some of the tracks come from, and was shivering backstage and was sweating and wearing every item of clothing he owned just to stay warm, and all the London scenesters thought he must have been some dopesick smackhead. He gets on stage and they begin playing and he's burnin' up under the lights and begins removing all his shirts and jumpers, one item at a time, as the show wears on, and everyone tells him afterwards that it was a genius bit of stagecraft on his part.

I remember when I was researching my SY book Paul Smith of Blast First telling me he pressed up the boot to make SY some extra money, because he thought it was immoral that Thurston and Kim had to work at a photocopy shop to make rent and that they should be able to live off their music, and that's why he did the boot. but they heard about it before he could explain that to them, and they thought he was ripping them off, and he reckoned it caused a profound crack in their friendship.

That excuse might have worked had he not pulled the exact same trick on Big Black...

That excuse might have worked had he not pulled the exact same trick on Big Black...

Sound Of Impact? i had always thought that was with the band's consent.

i sold my Walls Have Ears, to my eternal regret so this is good news.

Sound Of Impact? i had always thought that was with the band's consent.

I'd have to dig out my copy of Our Band Could Be Your Life to check, but I believe it was supposed to be a promo-only thing sent to radio stations, and then Albini spotted copies in record stores and confronted Smith about it.

actually, that sounds familiar.

Of course there's an Albini interview about it (from Quietus):

Tell me about Blast First re-issuing records without your permission.

SA: It's kind of complicated, in that my relationship with Paul Smith who runs Blast First kind of broke down over a Big Black bootleg that he had done. He had originally done the bootleg with our blessing, under the precondition that we weren't trying to milk the audience; we just wanted to put out a live record and we wanted to stop the inevitable bootlegging of the band by putting out a very high quality live record. And that was The Sound Of Impact. The record was intended to come out as a limited run, to cover its costs and nothing else. Just put the record out, sell as many copies as necessary to cover the cost of making it, and that's it. Right?

OK.

SA: A second run of that record was done, and started showing up in stores, with some very slight manufacturing differences that allowed me to tell that these copies were not part of the initial run. So I confronted Paul Smith about it, and he told me a story about someone at the pressing plant deciding - because he was a fan of the band - that the world needed more of the record, and pressed up another edition. That story didn't sit well with me, and it seemed completely incredible. Previously to that, there had been a problem with the band Sonic Youth, where he had done a bootleg for Sonic Youth under similar circumstances where it was obvious that they were going to get bootlegged anyway, so he thought, "Let's cut them off at the pass, and do a really nice bootleg, get it out there and you guys can make a little money."

The band kind of went along with it at first, then decided better – decided against it – but Paul went ahead and made this edition and released it, and the band found out about it and the band got mad about it and they almost broke off their relationship with him. This had happened a couple years previous to this thing with the Big Black record, and I knew about it, and he knew that I knew about it. So the story that this second edition was done by somebody at the pressing plant seemed completely incredible. So I asked him to put me in touch with this kid who he claims was a big Big Black fan, and he claims did this edition of the record all on his own. I said "Just let me talk to this guy, and it's all over; if it's somebody else then I have no complaint with you. I'll verify the story then we can move on". And that effort went on for a couple of years, literally a couple of years, during which time Big Black ended, and the posthumous record came out and the Rapeman record came out, and ultimately he was just never able to produce this other person. And it ended our relationship. I said, "I can't deal with someone who's bullshitting me, and this seems like bullshit, so I guess we're done". The problem with just ending the relationship there is that, at the time, the Rapeman record was still un-recouped. Meaning we had been given an advance from Blast First, and the bulk of that money was spent just relocating Rey and Dave from Texas to Chicago, and not spent on the record itself. But regardless, the money was spent, so the Rapeman record hadn't yet recouped at the point where our relationship broke down to the extent that we weren't going to be working together anymore. We haven't spoken about it, but it seems to me like it would be callous of me to reissue the record without clearing the books with Blast First, despite whatever my feelings might be about any duplicity on Blast First's part regarding the Big Black record. I wouldn't want to reissue their record and do a new, worldwide edition of the record. That record hasn't been available in the UK since Blast First ran out of them, I don't think that they've bothered to reprint them, although they would certainly be within their rights to do so. It's been available continuously in the US, and so if we were to reissue it and make it available in the UK it would be through Touch And Go, and I would be self-conscious about doing that without clearing the books with Blast First, and I honestly don't know how much money we owed them. There's potentially a prohibitive debt there, I really don't know.

I have a CD boot of Walls Have Ears which is currently in a box to sell on Discogs (if it's not blocked on there which it might be). I ripped it first obviously

it is blocked, it's this one https://www.discogs.com/release/2748209-Sonic-Youth-The-Sonic-Youth-Sound-Experience-Walls-Have-Ears

Well not directly them but this is one of the best/most unexpected things I've heard in a while -- liv.e doing a cover of "Kissability"

https://www.instagram.com/p/C2fjP3HPLs5/

Listening to Walls Have Ears now and it's really incredible. Would have loved this in high school (1988-90) when I was listening to them the most.

yeah it rules

Hoping this is sitting at home waiting for me when I get there.

Mine arrived this morning, just spinning it now. Great start to kick it off with one of my favourite SY songs (no, not yer man from Slash’s speech).

Liked Walls Have Ears so much I made their first decade the subject of this week's BA newsletter.

Really liked this early years visit. I just finished reading Moore's memoir and have been on quite the SY kick lately. 'Sister' just gives and gives - definitely a fave album. For absorbing the NYC no wave and post punk and glam rock and hardcore scenes around them at their inception, they came up with such a unique sound that would serve them throughout their career. Truly an exciting band.

I appreciate seeing I Love Her All The Time getting some kudos in your piece. One of my SY all time favourites. Loving the Walls Have Ears version of it too.

Nice essay!

i will read later when i have time. somehow i ended up spending too much time reading about phish! that is definitely my SY era.

Anyone going to see Thurston Moore and Lee Ranaldo at the Stone in NYC tonight? I was thinking of going, but now it looks like I won't be able to get out of here in time. (FWIW, tickets are sold at the door so it's first-come, first-serve and cash only.)

Also, bummed I missed this earlier this week:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3T_w_godt8

Alec Mackaye , from old dc band Faith and now in Hammered Hulls , is interviewing Moore next week December 9 at 6th & I Synagogue in DC & you can pay to see it virtual the next day or live . Plus there are combinations either ordering the book. About $15 including fees for next day virtual stream. General admission is $25 to $40 but they’re charging $150 for first row center with priority post event book signing access! $125 plus fees for 2nd row!

https://www.sixthandi.org/event/thurston-moore/

I think some of the prices go up on day of.

That seems pretty strange. Both times I've seen him at post-lockdown appearances, he openly placed himself at the merch table and signed anything people gave him, and while there were plenty of people, it didn't strike me as an overwhelming amount. (In fact, the second appearance was almost two years ago, and most people didn't ask him to sign anything, they just bought the books being offered from his publishing company.)

Ah, I see there's plenty of cheap options (such as "Virtual Ticket (free) + Signed Book: $28")

I dunno, would first or second row seating really have that much demand at a book talk?

dang, anybody that saw em at the Stone please report back!

Fuck me, Steve Shelley was there tonight too, so it wasn't a duo but 3/4 of Sonic Youth performing at the Stone. (Brief glimpses can be seen on Sonic Youth's official IG account's stories.)

GAH, every clip I'm finding looks awesome. I fucking hate today.

That clip above does look nice .

A buddy and I had free tickets to his book tour stop last year, but then he cancelled due to health stuff. Ah well.

So you are not going tomorrow?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95LPoQFzom4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXKoZUEpb4k

Oh so he did multiple nights at the Stone in NY with various people-

. Wednesday features a quartet with saxophonist Zoh Amba, drummer Ryan Sawyer and Jon Leidecker on electronics. Thursday and Friday are for classic guitar duets with, respectively Fred Frith (who has his own mini-residency at Roulette on the weekend), and old SY partner Lee Ranaldo. And Saturday ends in a trio with percussionists William Winant and Tom Surgal

That is from last week’s Dada Strain Substack email listings

xps Correct!

FWIW, the Stone usually invites someone to curate a week of shows, and they in turn usually program something different each of those nights. I think Moore's been involved with the Stone since the beginning, but I never tried to catch him there until now. (Though of course I missed this because I was ILL, but at least I can view it now.)

Wednesday features a quartet with saxophonist Zoh Amba, drummer Ryan Sawyer and Jon Leidecker on electronics.

<3

otm

Selling off more gear from the warehouse if you'd like a Sonic Youth Taylor acoustic

The only thing I want is Lee's Ludwig Phase II Synthesizer, a phaser/fuzz the size of a small combo amp. I assume it will be $3k+.

ayeyayayayayayayaayay

Live video from the 1991 tour with Neil Young & Crazy Horse, filmed from side-stage by Young's guitar & bass tech:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmh-Q8JWPqw

Set list:

noise intro/Tom Violence
Brother James
Eric's Trip
(I Got A) Catholic Block
Dirty Boots
I Love Her All the Time
Kool Thing
Expressway To Yr Skull/noise outro

OK, when I shared the video link on Facebook, it actually provided a date and location — February 24, 1991 at Brendan Byrne Arena in NJ! This is the show I was at!

^ after being confused by some Bruce Springsteen setlists, I found out this Arena still exists, but it changes names every couple of years:

1981–1996: Brendan Byrne Arena
1996–2007: Continental Airlines Arena
2007–2015: Izod Center
2016–Present: Meadowlands Arena

Will always be Brendan Byrne to me. Saw Duran Duran there in 84 on seven and the ragged tiger/reflex tour.

A friend of mine's younger sister went to that tour as a junior high/middle school student and came away not knowing quite what to make of opening act Erasure.