I HATE CLUBBING

2. Get yourself frisked by the bouncers who will invariably insult your appearance and intelligence. These cockfarming monkeymen will ID you even though they let all the pretty 15-year old girls without so much as a disparaging look, probably with a bonus wink thrown in for extra creepiness.

3. Gawp and exclaim "HOW MUCH?!!!" to the woman at the counter who is trying to convince you that £15 to get into the fiery depths of plebian bullshit is actually a bargain deal on a student night. Gawp once more at the overpriced yet obligatory cloakroom tariff. You are also guaranteed to have lost your coat ticket by the end of the night as they are designed to disintegrate on contact with your wallet.

4. After much cajoling and more frisking, you are in there! Scratch head trying to work out why everyone's getting so excited about the music they've been listening to on the radio at work all day, but since you're there you may as well try and have fun.

5. Spend thirty seconds "dancing" awkwardly to the latest pop drivel, then realise coming here was the worst idea of your life. A stiff drink is in order - preferably a cool glass of beer, or if not a stiff shot of spirits - after all, it's going to be a loooonngg night.

6. Cue at bar for twenty minutes with all the other twats. I would like a pint of beer please. What's that you say? No no, I thought you just said £3.50. What? It is £3.50?! This isn't even a glass, it's a fucking plastic cup! I can't even put it in my mouth without the rim going all squashy and spilling it all over...

7. ..."OI! Watch it you CUNT!" So sorry mate, it's this plastic mug thing they've just given me. "You fucking prat! You owe me a drink!" No mate, I'm sorry- *spy 7ft stature, prison tatoos and coke-habitted eyes* - would you like a cigarette? "Look mate, I'm gonna give you ten seconds to get me a drink or I'm gonna fucking break your face". Walk towards bar - then pelt like hell through the crowd, ducking and diving Indiana Jones-style. Spend rest of night looking over shoulder.

8. I think he's gone now. *Phew!* But where is everyone? Spend an hour looking for someone you know. Find them. Try to engage in conversation, but the effort is wasted due to the ear-achingly loud rubbish vomiting itself out of the speakers. Eventually give up and go seperate ways, looking for someone else to shout at.

9. This sucks. Now I need the toilet. Spend next thirty minutes queuing whilst being thrown around by bouncers and abused by townies.

10. Resign oneself into checking out what the ladies are like here, after all this place is supposed to be a proper meat market - you're bound to pull. Take one look at the dancefloor. Go back to bar. It's going to take more than one overpriced drink to trick my brain into chatting up this bunch of asshats.

11. Learn from past experience and get some kind of coloured bottle containing what appears to be liquid sugar with added tartrazine. It tastes like the foulest thing you've ever had in your mouth, but all the girlies lap it up so there must be something to it.

12. Die of a combination of heart failure, self-loathing, pure and utter despair, and a hefty blow to the back of the head. "WHERE'S MY FUCKING PINT YOU CUNT?!!!!" you hear as your head hits the floor. Then get unceremoniously dragged out of the club by your lips and kicked to shit by the bouncers for "starting a fight".

13. Walk home in rain, bloodied and sans coat.

I hate clubbing. It has to be THE shittest past-time since sucking the farts out of bus-seats.

It's true, it's true.

Sod raves.

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/3892/doglatinenjoyingtheclub.jpg

*dies happy*

as i say - stream of consciousness. then i went back and checked it all. then i accidentally posted the draft. DAH!

Dog Latin's Whistlestop Tour of the World

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Dog Latin's Time-Travel Adventures

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I really never go to clubs unless there's a band I want to see playing - I don't really know what to *do* otherwise. Now thanks to this post, I know!

http://www.symphony-homes.com/boy%20thumbs%20up.jpg

Clubbing on weeknights or small places, (i.e. no Bridge and Tunnel type crowds) where you're a regular, and having a good time dancing and jumping about to music you love with people you like is pretty classic.

Clubbing as in the sense of superclubs, door queues, dress codes, all that freaking velvet rope nonsense... Jesus Christ! What the fuck could possibly be behind that door that actually justifies the fuss? In my experience, the VERY few times I've done it, absolutely nothing. I'm glad that those superclub cattlesheds full of white high heels and boys in shiny shirts exist, though, because it keeps them out of the sort of places that I would want to go.

Feh.

Enrique, luckily I let the Carwash et al slip me by - as you know I never really had a whole lot of friends I could go out with in Cambridge. But I did see a few bands in that place.

What does "Bridge and Tunnel" mean, Kate?

a month or so ago my friends girlfriend KEPT asking me to go there and was being sort of sweet about it in her efforts to persuade me or see why I didn't want to go. But it was actually quite a rigorous interrogation in the end, I think I muttered something about liking to go to clubs where the clientele didn't make smart-ass comments about your hair or clothes and then I appeared all sensitive and offended as opposed to just picky.

YOU CAN'T WIN, I guess is the moral of this rambling story. Actually also I just hate going to a club where twats you don't even know will be all "I heard about you" the next week if you so much as talk to a girl, small town crap, grrr.

It's more the disrespect and total disregard for anyone else, residents or not, that makes B&T so awful. Don't behave in someone else's neighbourhood in a way that you would not behave in your own.

What do you think the chances are that I would be arrested? Quite high. SO WHY DO PEOPLE BEHAVE LIKE THAT IN MY NEIGHBOURHOOD AND THINK THEY CAN GET AWAY WITH IT?!?!?

Mark, FUCK YOU AND THE HIGH HORSE YOU RODE IN ON.

Not to the people that live in those central areas of cities, it's not. They're for living in.

Well, no, central London is not for the people who live there. At all! It's a fucking financial and cultural (and, once, industrial) capital -- people come to it from all over the world. Were you born within the sound of Bow Bells? No?

Kate you ignorant moron. Exactly the same behaviour happens in Wimbledon every night at 11pm. Come down here and check it out and for once in your life have a fucking clue about something you're whining on about on ILX.

Jesus. Has one person ever been so full of sanctimonious shit???

But a little considerationb for the thousands of people who do live there would be nice.

(Oh and in answer to your question; yes, but wrong Bow)

I am not saying that the centre of a city should be for residents only. But I *AM* saying that if you visit a place, ANY place, you should show the same respect and consideration as if it were your own home and neighbourhood.

LETS GET IT ON!!!!!!

Can't argue with that -- alas some people are fucking nightmares in their own street, it isn't the journey downtown that brings it out.

totally OTM. I just couldn't understand why 99% of the student population at my uni found getting pissed on alcopops and dancing to the worst music ever made to be the highlight of their week, but it also made me feel like an unsociable recluse for not wanting to go. Really I only went there to meet other students and do the whole social thing. I wasted a lot of time in my efforts.

Enrique - hah, I want to excelsior that but I don't know if anyone else would know what you're talking about.

http://users.ox.ac.uk/~wadh1786/peace.jpg

NB: I am barred from the Earl of Derby. Recognize.

I would be there, indeedy. But we must be *very* careful about which pub we choose.

Kate - I'd much rather my dad were still here (albeit not suffering) than have the money he left me. Hope that eases your breakup.

Although I guess the term "bridge and tunnel" is quite offensive in this context, people were a little quick to jump at Kate's throat just for explaining the term. It really does assume that everyone who comes from out of town is a trouble-maker, when in fact I'm sure there's just as much trouble caused by people in their own towns. People are generally wankers by default. Also, it's also quite offensive that city folk will act so snooty in a "oh, please don't spoil our lovely town with your non-ironic haircuts and your shocking lacks of knowledge about microhouse" kind of way, but that's another story.
Trendier London clubs are nothing like my initial post. The rant was indeed about small-town clubbing where they have to appeal to the lowest common denominator - students, office workers, townies, breezer birds etc. I walk past the queue for the Corn Exchange in Hitchin town centre and am amazed that these people would actually want to go in when there's plenty of other places they could go. Oh well, I guess it's a good thing because it keeps this kind of demographic out of the decent pubs.

You know, it's just as offensive to make sweeping generalisations about city folk as it is to make sweeping generalisations about suburban folk.

but only if they are asymmetric too

what is wrong with ironic haircuts?

there is a strange classism being exhibited by many people, which seems to suggest that 'ordinary people' (you mean, working class people right?) don't/shouldn't do these things. i don't understand.

some of the attitudes and opinions expressed seem very similar to those i came to london to escape.

this isnt the premise of dlatins post, apologies dl

xpost: gareth, not sure if i understand the analogy between fakeness/ponceyness and classism as regards this thread...

ironic haircuts i can take or leave

its difficult to articulate, and is only hinted at in this thread really

i think its the anti ironic-hair thing, a dislike of 'ponceyness', see the many comments about 'hipster cunts' that pepper the board. yes, of course, i am aware that that is a convenient straw man for people but...

FWIW I am a slightly bemulleted lower middle class suburbanite so please take the above comment with heaps of salt.

The behaviour in question is *not* "living in the suburbs" which is the mistaken connotation due to the derivation of the term. The behaviour in question is common or gardern wankerhood which all of you would recognise as wankerhood.

Enrique - maybe the 'suburbs' will end up connoting working class when there is *no more* affordable housing in central London. There's something heartwarming that the areas my parents grew up in are now considered desirable; less heart-warming that they almost definitely couldn't afford to live in them anymore (but so is life).

i think this is the implication i'm referring to. that being poncey is seen as a bad thing? why is it?

this reminds me of being back in yorkshire

Bollocks -- anyway, how do you make out that inner-city residents are better-behaved than the B&T lot? I don't see it.

My last post was a bit confused, but basically I was refuting the idea that by calling out the idea of the B&T as snobbish I was not being inversely-snobbish towards all you excitingly-coiffed Zone 1 and 2ers.

Is using the term "Tory" to describe Conservatives offensive to the Irish because it originated in Ireland?

"Bridge and Tunnel" was once an origin, it is now a behaviour.

(The funny thing is, in my experience, actual born and bred city dwellers do tend to be a lot more respectful of each other on a certain level because they understand that's what it's necessary to do to live packed in so closely. But this is my personal experience, not a generalisation.)

I understand what Gareth is trying to say, maybe because it's the same people always making the same arguments, and dragging class in during every single argument.

2 xposts

Kate, I kinda see what you mean, but 'B&T' suggests disapproval of the object it relates to on snobbish grounds: like 'prole', in certain contexts I don't like it.

I would like to see some more photoshoppery, though.

Can you fix it for me to be photoshopped into a picture waving my thumbs at Gareth and Kate for blowing up the Luton Arndale centre?

Chzthxbye!

I mean, goddamit. Is the sensation of snobbery really so irresistible to you? Are you not aware that your tedious posts on classism, etc, read like someone vomiting after having a copy of the Daily Mail shoved down their throats? Are you really so addicted to empty, blustering rhetoric??
-- stevie (looselippedstevi...), June 11th, 2004. (stevie) (later)

Hunt him down and tar him and feather him like the scurvy peasant he is, I'll have his head hanging on a pole above my moat as a lesson to the rest of ye!

Trucker Hats C/D?

How ironic is your hair? Very/Kinda/Not at all

What is the most unacceptable thing to come out of your anus? Horrible poo/Pins/28ft Yacht

The enneagram can then slot people into different Ilxor categories including Arndale Arsonist, Bridge & Tunneler, Asshat etc.

Ironic haircuts deserve a "search and destroy" thread. It's no fun just mentioning them like this, they need to be attacked with extreme prejudice.

OTM -- I usually end up seeming anti-hipsterish and midtown, but not because of any active hatred but because teh hipsterz quite often bring out their own anti-B&T material first -- and I react against that. You can't map class on to *this* discussion since the B&T are just as middle-class as the ironic-haircuts brigade. Shit, they may even *have* ironic hair. Both breeds are slightly chimerical, as I think we all realize.

Any bloke who hasn't done this and enjoyed it at least once is either lying, or a goth.

OTFM!!!! Very much so. I tried to get 'edgy' dance website burnitblue to let me write about this when I reviewed for em back in the day, but no dice. Now they've gone right down the shitter. QED.

MattDC -- I've only gone proper clubbing about three times. All the rest played 'Come On Eileen' -- and I've never met Tom Ewing.

This did happen. Except they asked me if it was "up North". I'm serious. This was in Highgate.

I had no idea! I mean, I figured it was a home county but I think it overlapped in my brain with hereford somehow, I wasn't really sure.

The photo gallery in particular is being fearsome.

An ex-SOAS Student was killed oytside the Venue. I went to see Levitation there once when it was a proper Indie venue.

do you mean there are fewer of them, or that they are posher?

uh, it was just an analogy. nasty kebabs & clubbing - I wasn't referring to the urban/provincial war.

enrique i would expect cows in Oxford, but...Zone 3?

Jesus Christ! Not to criticise anyone "ordinary" if such a person exists, for a second, but what is the point of anyone being hip if they're meant to hide it so Mark or whoever doesn't feel it's ostentatious. If that isn't knee jerk conservatism, DRESS LIKE ME, I don't know what is

Mmm, the Venue. It was a real treat to see a band there - after ULU it was just about the most perfect venue of the lot.

xpost - feeling touchy, Ronan?

Photoshoppers: sheep with Hoxton fins please!

Once it's no longer fitting whatever salt of the earth nonsensical theory you've brewed up?

DL: we've not me have we?

I recall it being the "S&M crowd" - Scarborough & Mississauga, natch. (Sadly, I am from Scarborough), but in recent years I found the area code slur much more common, i.e. - "Richmond Street is full of annoyoing 905ers"

Ha, this is how the Accra rumour mill works. My sex life doesn't exist, therefore it has been invented for me.

And this thread is insania. Can't we get back to swapping shitty clubbing experiences instead of dragging a bloody hipsterism/class/snobbery rehash into it? It's harshing my buzz.

And even if you'll claim you don't, well, I do. Do you hate me?

i didn't like the idea of Hoxditch for years because i assumed it was full of people taking the idea of being 'hip' to unattractive (to me) extremes - see my definition of hip on the Define Hip thread - class didn't come into this. but i didn't feel at all comfortable whenever i hung out there (not often) even just a few years back (99-01) for a number of reasons. i thought the are was ugly, dangerous and just lacked 'soul' - but my perception v distorted because i knew the east side of town so poorly and was naturally biased. conversely (and perversely) i was envious because it was constantly hyped and still popular after saturation point and i would have liked to have been able to latch onto that earlier (no point anyway by the time i started going to clubs round that way). the western equivalent - Ladbroke Grove - didn't seem to have the same sort of buzz or attention paid to it, tho i felt v alien round that way too at first.

Given your inability to muster any kind of empathy for anyone other than yourself, that would make perfect sense.

it really is.

don't want to clog up this thread any further, or even engage this issue much longer. it continues here: The Stevie vs Kate class thread

I've worn a few shiny shirts in my day. but it's not a good look for me.

xpost hahahahaha!

why is there antipathy for expression through fashion?

why is there such antipathy here for the concept of display?

what is wrong with style over content?

1) Clubs stay open awfully late, I like to be in bed by 12.
2) Too loud
3) Too many people
4) No comfortable chairs
5) Too many flashing lights
6) They don't serve tea and cakes

Though, I guess everyone knew that I'd say this sorta thing already, I'm just being consistent. If you like clubs, that's cool, have fun.

nothing as such, it's just that there may be an attitude going with it, snootiness maybe - 'i am better than you, the clothes say so' - or just that people not dressing according to your own perception of what looks good is 'wrong' - most people think like that and make judgements as a result (often without realising even?)

why is there antipathy for expression through fashion?

because perhaps it's reinforcing an idea that to many is 'wrong' - clothes maketh the man, a sense of superficiality, a disguise, a distraction hiding the truth (that being that they are no better or worse than you). otoh it can be a lot of simple fun.

why is there such antipathy here for the concept of display?

i don't think it's really about that, it's about an attitude that tends to go with that approach.

what is wrong with style over content?

it suggests that the style is more important/more meaningful but a lot of people are perhaps conditioned to feel the opposite, and instinctively this feels correct MOST OF THE TIME - not that i don't appreciate what i consider to be good style - of course i do. just don't let it go to your head?

and whats wrong with superficiality or disguise? and whats this 'truth'? all peoples clothes tell us about them, even if they think they're clothes don't tell us things, they do

whats this attitude that goes along with overt display? and why is it a problem?

i think appearance is denigrated on this board, far too much, why is it less valued than other 'worthier' things?

Indeed, it's far better to get to know people in rather more amenable contexts than clubs.

I must admit I don't get the sense of a groundswell that's intent upon clubbing at my University, even upon finals, which may be to do with Cambridge having virtually nothing in the way of clubs, and also as people I find, yes, my word, they can accept just having a night in a student bar or pub, and actually have a good drink well priced, and good conversation.
I mean this may mean I don't move in mainstream circles - heck, I've spent one night in a club in the last University year (though it has been my last admittedly and hard work) - but I can accept that. I have been clubbing far more regularly when at home, with many long time friends, and while there was an early period where I really enjoyed it, recent times have been slightly more strained. Our particular Sunderland club had used to have rather a student-y mix on Thursdays yet recently it's gone the other way, and just does seem less friendly and that bit more like DL's crisp description, or the club in "The Office", say... I'd really like to find somewhere that had consistently good music, too.

stevem otm, again. steve, really, people will start to talk. [smooch]

I would like to disassociate myself from the sort of (intended or otherwise) class judgements and similar comments that have gone on. Perhaps if some people thought things through a little more before posting things may be better, and also if people didn't so easily descend into mud-slinging. Don't try it, folks. ;) From all I gather, this seems to be the ILX 'thing' at the moment; one finds it difficult to tell when people are being serious here, though considering the generally thoughtful crowd we have here, it's hardly going to be BNP-style aggro is it? ;)

I have had good impressions of a club crowd in Sunderland, which is as northern and working-class a city as you'll find (bloody BNP targetting it recently and thankfully failing). I have also had plenty of bad impressions, but I think I can fairly say I've never had an experience as bad as DL with his initial post; most of my worse nights would be more dependent on internal than external stuff... awful night in Newcastle once on this big club on some sort of boat, which apparently Gazza frequented in his time. Partly as it had was absurdly lacking in air conditioning of any sort, partly as the night had been miserable hitherto, what with two friends having a bit of a falling out. And partly as I hadn't planned on going there; was a not-too-close friend's birthday night-out.

what is right with superficial? shall we call the whole thing off? people like stuff to mean something most of the time, it's re-assuring, people like order tho they may profess otherwise. that superficial moment is only really important if it leads to something else, no? the moment alone, once past, does not seem important if nothing comes of it. is it even worth remembering otherwise?

i think gareth you should ditch the brown (jumper) btw. put your money where your mouth is and rock the fancy 'drobe yung.

At a young age I realized that as a defense mechanism for people making snap judgements about me based on my skin color, I made snap judgements about people who chose to mainstream themselves into a society that I felt would reject me if it thought it could get away with it with its PR intact. This led me to completely fuck with my style; clothes were clothes and didn't really mean anything, so there was absolutely no difference between showing up at school wearing a red plid button-down shirt with a sweater vest and khakis one day, followed by ripped jeans, combat boots and a concert t-shirt the next day, followed by khakis and combat boots with a dress shirt and a tuxedo jacket the day after that. I also willfully sought out friends from almost every demographic in the school; jocks, nerds, theater kids, band kids, choir kids, the church crowd, popular kids, skaters, goths, stoners, etc. I was determined to confound whatever expectations people had of me; I wanted to dress really shabbily, walk into a room, and ostentatiously show off the fact that I memorize stuff easily and can sustain a reasonable discussion. I wanted to look like a punk but sound like a moderate.

I wanted people to judge my book by my cover and I wanted to manipulate their judgement to be "first impressions don't actually mean shit; you have to get to know someone before you can draw a conclusion about him/her". I wanted to convert all of the small-minded people whom I perceived to think themselves above everyone around them into disciples of me, where my society is strictly egalitarian and perfect.

The irony that I thought I was the greatest person in the world and was essentially looking down on everyone around me didn't cross my mind until much, much later; it wasn't until I met someone who had embraced "the normal" who also turned out to be extraordinarily similar to me AND interesting AND interested in me that I realized exactly how much of a sneering shit I'd been since about the age of 14. (Of course I eventually married this person.)

The point to this mildly rambling story is that just as substance should not be subservient to style, style should not be subservient to substance. They are deeply intertwined and reflect upon each other MUCH MORE than people seem to be willing to admit. I have PLENTY of friends who disdain those who are fashionistas or who follow popular culture or read pulpy books because "they just aren't SAYING anything!" As I become older, I fail to see the distinction between their shallow pose of only enjoying oblique-prose literature or non-fiction, listening exclusively to NPR and clucking their tongues at those who aren't glued to CSPAN and the shallow pose of the people who are putting on ludicrously tight clothes to go out dancing, tuning in to the E! pre-awards show for Joan Rivers' outfit critiques, working out daily at the gym and weeping at the season finale of "Friends".

dan perry, still very much OTM.

First off, about the fucking class red herring, some English people who have never lived in America are projecting British class attitudes onto an American phrase based on American class attitudes. That's a bad idea. However, last night I fell asleep reading Toby Young's "How To Lose Friends And Alienate People" and found the most (only?) interesting chapter of the book was his desperate attempt to make sense of the NYC class structure. He comes off like an unrelenting twat, but at least he gave it a try. (Quotes from Tocqueville, Fussel, the Preppy Handbook and the sainted Veblen helped.)

Now on to tackle Gareth's questions about superficiality and fashion...

Secondly, Display as creativity. I accept that couture, style, clothing, presentation, is as much an art form as any other kind of design, involving aesthetic concepts of abstract beauty and personal expression and creativity. Some people, I see them and I think "Her outfit is a work of art, the same as a painting or a song, or a well designed lamp," and I admire her dress sense the same way I admire a clever turn of phrase or a catchy melody.

HOWEVER, I object to Display as an expression of conspicuous consumption. Fashion too quickly becomes a Status competition of "Look how many expensive handbags, three hundred pound shoes, Saville Row suits I have!" This doesn't just happen with expensive designer clothes. "Look how many cool thrift store dresses I have" can just as easily be a Veblenian Display of "Look how much leisure time I have to spend trawling through second hand shops."

That becomes Display as Competition, and I find status competition faintly nauseating.

Then there is Display as Reaffirming Conformity. Sure, clothing has been used as a way of announcing your affiliation since Roman times. This is the "lt's all be different together" aspect that I object to. There is clothing as code, clothing as signifier; a row of kids in denim and leather are as easily indentifiable as "metalheads/rockers" as a row of men in suits and ties are identifiable as "businessmen". I had an overwhelming need to be part of a subculture and to identify myself as such when I was about 15. But clothing as Code has an unfortunate tendency to become as conformist as the Mainstream Society I was trying to escape.

And doorcodes on clubs rigourously enforce these negative aspects of Display. "You're not dressed smart enough to come in here" = "you don't have status" and "You're not dressed indie/goth/raver/whatever to come in here" reinforces the conformity of the subculture.

How are you supposed to escape the mainstream society from which you are trying to remove yourself, without reinforcing the exact negative aspects of the mainstream which you are trying to escape?

I don't know. My reaction was to become a misanthrope and not be bothered.

like, when someone linked to profiles on makeoutclub (or was it lipstick and cigarettes), i forget, and, you know, these self-aware and attractive people were paraded around and laughed at. and the whole subtext was "they have nothing to say, they are worth less, its all a show, they don't really like xyz". i thought this was very unedifying. i also thought it was self-righteous and paternalistic

i think there has been a real problem on ilx, an inability to get visual people, or people where image has been perceived to have taken precedence above 'content', whatever that is. or people, who might not be 'straight up'.

this is something i've disliked for a long long time here, and i guess its only really on this thread (where it is only tangentially related), that its prompted me to comment

With beautiful people, other people treat them differently, give them respect, are nice to them, sometimes give them physical things, simply because they are beautiful. They often have unrealistic emotional expectations because they've never really had to work for the affections that they've learned to take for granted. Even if they are self aware, even if they know this is happening, still, there's a certain ... something that I find shallow about them. (The ones that I've met or dated or whatever, I do not speak for every beautiful person everywhere.) Maybe they have more self confidence, and they expect people to love them, and therefore they do.

Maybe this is some kind of inverse snobbery, and some beautiful people (especially women) claim that they have to work to get people to take them seriously, intellectually or otherwise. But my immediate prejudice is that this is a person who has never had to do anything to gain love except be beautiful.

As to style over content, I would have thought that would be self evident. Style is important, aesthetics are important. But they are not the only thing. What do ideally want in a friend, partner, whatever? Do you want someone to look at, or someone to talk to? Ideally, what you'd want is both. But in my experience, I would rather have someone that I can talk to who is not so fantastic to look at, than have someone who is beautiful and stylish, but with whom I can't hold a conversation.

Style and Content are both important. But I will accept Content without Style, while I will not accept Style without Content. Your values and expectations may vary.

The class division probably doesn't (an probably has never) rigidly applied. But the divided between the aspirational and the comfortable is more prominent than ever and dare I say it but ILX is the preserveof the comfortable and fearful of the aspirational.

what i find strange is that this is then tied up with a misapplied romanticization of working class culture as somehow a corrective to the above, when in fact the above IS working class culture.

it isn't a fear necessarily of the ridiculuous, the contrived and the pretentious, i think there is an acceptance of that in art/music, but, there is a deep suspicion of it in daily life, or in people we might meet, or in doing it ourselves. the idea that someone might be superficial/sleazy/ridiculuous/contrived/fake as, like, an actual person, or, that they might present themselves that way, is something that ilx, as a board, has never been particularly receptive to.

and, what i find interesting is the way that this antipathy to the visual is played through a distorted class mirror, that carries an implication that, you know, good old geezers, have 'more' to them than mere appearance, that this is the preserve of some nebuluous 'faux-rebellious' middle class.

yet, the majority of this board (in london anyway, which is what we are talking about here, right?) is very middle class, and there seems to me to be some kind of one step removed imagineering of working class culture, going on at the same time. as though, you know, a working class person, that grew up in some northern or black country town, or wherever, would have more about them, than this 'playing', you know, more 'depth' or something.

or, why are people suspicious of 'image'?

I don't think this is quite true, I think it should be highly possible to just take things, or people, as you see them. In fact if anything it may be more feasible that someone is fascinated by image or style from an insecure point of view.

Also another point, I think the suggestion that there is something superficial about whatever we are calling "hipsterism" here is quite off and wrong. I think most people I know who dress in a manner Mark might have called "ostentatious" do so because they have a genuine love for and interest in clothes and fashion. The fact that this deviates from a percieved norm DOES NOT make them ostentatious. Even if they're fully aware they're deviating from the norm, the suggestion that to do so is to "show off" is conservative rubbish.

Furthermore, as regards style over substance, I mean surely we all can accept how ridiculous even attempting to define either is. It's all entirely subject to opinion, I will say this, I've had enough dreary substance to do me a lifetime. In art or fashion or anything else.

what exactly is so wrong about showing off?

certainly I would add that the idea that there might not be more beyond someone's image or style is ridiculous in itself, image is our way of marketing ourselves, and it's the greatest and most frequently revolving chance we have to escape the "self" we're given by birth, friends, society, or whatever other factors at whatever time.

x-post, I don't think there's anything wrong with showing off. I think in this case the ostentatiousness is in the eye of the beholder.

It is an in built necessity of all styles or fashiones to be at least a little ridiculous, contrived and pretentious. This comes from living in a time and place where the merely functional is not the norm and could even be seen as yet another style. We live in an era where almost everyone is a peacock in some way or another, peacockery is availible to everyone. Some do it by the size of their record collections or the range of bullshit they spout some do it with a ten pound outfit from primark and a night out at pulse and vogue. We live in an escaist age and deludoing ourselves that one escapism is better tha another is daft but very human. Why should an escapism into rablings on the internet be any more valid than a preening hoxditch fantasy.

The only reason i supose is the inate trivbalism of humanity, class tribes , money tribes, appearance tribes. There's nothing a human likes more than to form a gang and go and rumble with the other gangs, even if its in secret and on the internet.

i'll say one thing tho. i can't stand showing off. i have disliked ever since i was a kid at primary school. part of this comes from natural envy, seeing they have something that i'd want, or at least like think i could have if i wanted to (a control issue). perhaps it was something drummed into me so much by what i saw at that age - morals and lessons played out on TV and in books (rather than parental instruction). this continued right thru my life - when it started becoming apparent that i had certain talents and i was displaying them willingly then that was interesting because i'd set the onus on myself to not brag about it, but i remember many occasions of showing off in a certain way as a kid that i remember feeling was an act of vengeance - directed at nobody in particular, i just wanted to show 'the world' i was good at something. this desire for that sort of attention and success continued to battle with my own cultivated appreciation of modesty, subtlet, dignity, integrity etc. - perhaps to the point where i became afraid to really apply my full potential, afraid of it causing problems with other people who didn't have that same talent and wanted it. to this day i am still always eager to demonstrate that i am good at certain things and eager to attain recognition and respect for that, but at the same time worried that it will make people think i am a egotistical show-off, go figure.

Many of the anti-hipster attitudes I come across (read here or in media or whatever) are a 'defensive' march on the offensive - you know, get in the insult at a group you reckon is sneering at you first, regardless of the truth of the matter. Many people who are attracted to subcultures have felt rejected by mainstream culture/'normals' first and then see the social patterns in a particular scene mirror those they see as conformist already, then decide to reject the group forcefully rather than be shunned twice. It's kind of like the difference between being the dumper and the dumpee.

yes but as you rightly pointed out image is very important (whether it should be or not) wrt to people making snap judgements, fundamental in fact - so if their taste doesn't seem to match yours at first glance then you may entertain the possibility that you and this person might not be able to relate that well. of course Mark and other people's vitiriol seems way OTT when it's put that way...

Suzy otm regarding a fear that it's the anti-hipster being sneered at first, or that it's a pre-emptive strike based on insecurity about their own inadequacies which may be focussed on when confronting people who are different (perfectly understandable)

what are you talking about, some of us also have to play guitar

http://img14.photobucket.com/albums/v41/hitchhiketorhome/crosseyed_john.jpg

also, why do people move to inner city areas if they get upset by people coming to give their patronage to the entertainment areas? not like they weren't there before they moved in....

I love New Yorkers. They spice up the place. They talk loudly on cell phones about humorous uptight problems. They lack self-consciousness. They dress better than most of the people here. They look out of place.

This whole thread is about snobbery, fitting in or not. To club at a snobbish club, you gotta dress to fit in. If you're snobbish about the snobs, you're gonna have a lousy time and wonder why you're there. Turning your nose up at the velvet rope - ironic, really.

I reckon it's worth patrolling the line between dandyism and hipsterism, 'cos Gareth's arguments seem kinda closer to a celebration of the former, more and more, and I think dandyism is actually precisely the same drive as hating from the other direction. Y'know, making yourself an outsider and posing it as a quest for some pure self or something. I reckon Mark and Kate could sit with Dickon and pour venom on 'vacous hipster cokeheads' all day...

Warning, this question may be outrageously stupid. but, is it possible to read the new answers to a thread without actually loading the entire thread?

We're Night-Clubbing.

Bah x-post.

I think you've got that quite wrong. At least, that hasn't been my experience. It's not fear of being "dumped" or shunned, it's the awful sickening realisation that your newfound friends within the subculture are as conformist, cliqueish and narrow-minded as the oxo-culture you rejected in the first place. It's not fear of being shunned, it's "Holy, shit, we really don't have the same values at all, just the same haircuts."

it's that anybody can look good, attractive, sharp, in the "right" clothes and haircut;

Now that's just not true. It's a bit Rikki Lake of you to assume that anyone can look good with a makeover. But it just doesn't work that way.

or, why are people suspicious of 'image'?

I wrote several long paragraphs on that back there, and I can only assume that you didn't read them from the fact that you didn't comment on anything I said.

Hipsterism is about setting or being close to the crest of a trend. Dandyism is a flagrant and willful denial that trends even exist.

x-post...

My friends are a subset of Set B. Some used to be A. Some are B on Tuesday.

This is completely, totally, absolutely OTM and goes back to my point about "Fuck the cover; read what's actually in the book."

Somebody please photoshop dog latin's face into this picture.

So in the hipster-hating world view, if you try to anticipate the crest of a trend, you're suspicious. But if you give it up and just go "oxo-culture", you're narrow-minded. But if you go Dandy, you're flamboyant (read: gay) - so what choices are left?

When I was younger, my friends and I dressed the same and I chose friends based more or less on whether they looked cool to me. I'm glad I grew up. This gets too confining. There are such great conversationalists with poor fashion sense. You miss out on too much if you're concerned about whether you and your friends look "right".

Some days I dress like a hipster, some days I don't. I suppose if a hipster-hater saw me one day, they'd make assumptions about who I am that they wouldn't make if they saw me the next day. Really it just has to do with which of my clothes are in the laundry.

(Thanks for calling me Greg btw! I am hoping that people will magically catch on to this without me having to aid the process in any way).

Of course a Dandy can be a woman, don't be so narrow minded and sexist! Words mean what we say they mean, not what the Victorians who dreamed them up thought they meant!

Different people dress provocatively or flamboyantly or as Display for many different reasons. I'm interested in the reasons, not in what they wear.

The problem with a truly egalitarian world view is that everyone you want to insult is perfectly justified in insulting you back. I may have to become a fascist; then I can verbally crush people underneath my bootheels without being a hypocrite. (Yes, I'm rambling now.)

But this makes no sense! It's just some theoretical situation whereby one hipster hangs out with only those similar to himself/herself, or something. Like hipsterism begats empty hipsterism or something.

Also this "Fuck the cover; read what's actually in the book." stuff just is further cliché in this sort of argument. What if one is interested in the cover? Where does the human cover end and the person begin? There is no exact science.

I just hate this sense of GROUNDING about the "fuck the cover" attitude. The sense of attempting to pull some people back to a certain level.

I was just asking! Trying to catch up on your lingo. I've not heard it used this way until now.

This is IT. I didn't think I liked dancing or dance music at all until I went to a rave. Obviously drugs had a help in that, but I feel that going to raves in the UK is a much nicer experience than going to a club. This is basically down to the fact there's a lot less surface and a lot more feeling. People wear their shitest gear to go raving and yet their best clobber to go clubbing. I feel uncomfortable in clubs because I'm constantly worried about the image I'm giving off. I get that thing where you think everyone's looking at you and judging you by your clothes and the way you walk and how much gel is in your hair. You certainly don't get this at a rave because no-one gives a flying fuckslash what you're wearing. Just so long as you're a decent, friendly person. I tried to explain this to a girlfriend who had never been raving before and was pretty much anti drugs. The only argument she came up with was "but the music's shit and it's full of hippies". That's about the time I realised we weren't meant to be.

Yeah, you're totally spot-on. It's like the drugs power these scenes of acceptance that would be totally amazing even if you weren't on drugs. Universal impotence = no cockwaving, maybe? (The squatter scene is my favourite version of this, actually, 'cos it's got this brilliant dynamic between people who squat because their father is a Tory MP and doesn't understand them, maaan, and people who squat because they don't have houses). I love how you can tell what subcultures people were into before rave from the dancing style they bring to it, all these 120bpm versions of metal, indie, pop, jarvis-cocker-does-cruel-imitation-of-rachel-stevens-pastiche (may just be me).

Hahahahahah! YEh, all my metal friends do weird punching-circle dances when they go to raves, like a friendly but more ballistic style of moshing.

What's happening in Brighton? I'd really like to go but I'm not very rich and I want to lay off getting rat-arsed again until Glastonbury. Tell me next time something's on and I'll definitely turn up.

Brighton is this big outdoor party, it sounds awesome, I'm pretty excited about it. I only know one person who's going, so I'll get the details off them tomorrow or something...

Heeeeeeeere's DOGGY!

xpost: HAHAHAHAHA

Come To Doggy

greg: you lucky bastard. my friend told me about Glade and I think he wants to go. Well, so do I but I really have to save money before my bank manager puts me in thumbtacks and makes me be the Queen's personal rickshaw monkey for not paying back my overdraft. I'm quite pissed off about not going to either of those.

Couldn't you sell your time-travelling memoirs, D?

um, I meant Brighton and the Glade, not thumbtacks and rickshaws.

Anyway, onwards and upwards.

Couldn't you sell your time-travelling memoirs, D?

No, because Goebbels brainwashed me in 1940 so I'd forget everything.

BOOM-TS-TS-BOOM-TS-BOOM-TS-etc.-rpt.-ad-naseum-til-passout-ono-rnadom-couch

this is also true of people. and perhaps the hipster critics are commenting based on their past experiences - finding the book covers to be a front for a crap book all too often.

Clubbing! It's something you grow out of!

as regards Bridge and Tunnel, I suppose I am the archetypal Bridge and Tunneler. started when I was 16, travelling thorguh bridges and tunels on the train to london from my beloved CommuterTown home in search of the bright lights of Gilles Peterson et al. carried on doing so until this day, except i have moved to london recently, so i guess i can't keep on calling myself that.

But really, central london is full of people travelling in to go out cos there isnt so much good nightlife further out of zone 1. if you are presented with the nightlife opportunities of say, Hemel Hempstead (viz. Visage and Ethos at leisureworld), then a trip to london seems pretty attractive.

to be honest, if you move to eg. clerkenwell, which has fabric, turnmills, fluid, lifthouse etc. then you have to think before you move there: "hmmmm loads of bars/nightclubs here, maybe better move somewhere quieter".
Is it not like moving to Gillespie Road and complaining that every Saturday loads of Arsenal fans come down, piss in gardens, leave litter everywhere, make loads of noise etc etc?

In other words, just like the Hippies, Mods, etc. I don't think young people *today* will be remembered for clubbing -- maybe the late '80s lot. But not us. i mean, people still listen to psychedelic music, punk music -- but that won't define the early naughties either.

Well, the purpose of the music comes out of the context, and the of the subculture we're talking about was retrogressive-escapist. Although the music doesn't *have* to be used for that (oh no rules oh no) these are interesting times to be completely ignoring.

Enrique OTM. This "it's all about the music, fuck the politics" attitude is half the reason i'm against it. Not that I'm saying we should stop having fun and start listening to Billy Bragg and RATM, of course, but it would be nice to think that my generation had a bit more "umph" to it, especially in this political climate. Maybe clubbing is a backlash against the whole "Generation X" thing. Even recently abandoned style/social movements like Grunge were non-conformist to an extent. Club culture is the antipathy of this - it's about spending money on fashion, spending money on door and coat tariffs, spending money on drink and cocaine. The most rebellious/dangerous thing about clubbing is the obligatory after hours brawl that ensues whether you like it or not.

Essentially the above reads to me like "the kids nowadays drink too much and it's all just grab grab grab, and then fights too!".

I was shocked and surprised as a freshman to see how rife the "blahblahblah I'm not listening" attitude amongst my peers. I don't think I ever had one decent deep-n-meaningful* with anyone within the three years I was there. Students either got angry, questioned why I was trying to get "all clever" on them or just acted plain bored if ever anything came up. This attitude seemed to be exponential with the popularity of club culture, and ironic cheesy discos. It wasn't cool to be interested, or to rebel, or to be non-conformist anymore.

*not as in "oh dear, my boy/girlfriend's dumped me, what do I do?" deep-n-meaningful. The other kind.

Yes, to an extent.

This is a few years ago -- now I think about subcultures and while I do prefer acid house/house etc to punk/mod *music*, I also think it's a dismal reflection of the aspirations of people my age. I know how much that's likely to get pissed on by standard-issue ILX science [narrow definition of politics' -- I KNOW, I'm not STUPID, but sometimes, the day after a major right-wing success, for example, one needs a little focus), but fuck it, that's how it seems to me.

MDC -- do expand.

But surely clubbing is the most conservative (small 'c') ideal. Clubbers want it to stay this way forever. Dressing differently or listening to alternative music are frowned upon. It's all about what Posh Spice is up to or what happened on Big Brother last night - the most moronic shit imaginable designed for a nation of dozers who find watching another bunch of dozers really fun. I don't understand the point in listening to cheesy music just because it's ironic - I'd rather listen to something good. But as a student, it was the cheese nights that won out, not the alternative nights or the proper dance nights. Right I've forgotten what I was saying now... this is confusing, I'm sorry...

It's been two and a half years since I graduated and maybe the student climate has changed, but there are plenty of students and early-20s folk in my area, most of whom couldn't give a shit about their current climate.

http://www.mk002b5731.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/images/albums_westendgirls_mixes.jpg

You can't blame acid house for that!

Mind you I think your Big Brother dissing is a bit clichéd, it never ceases to baffle me how people suggest that watching actual people in realtime is somehow more moronic in principle than watching made up stories played out by actors?

Of course neither are moronic but if we're in the business of breaking things down to the brass tacks and gawping "it's just PEOPLE. IN A HOUSE" then I'm unsure Big Brother appears the silliest thing on TV, or the most idiotic.

On the contrary Big Brother strikes me as something of natural interest to anyone! I'm amazed it's become such a scapegoat for "something or other", from the same vaguely anti-capitalist people.

sympathize a lot with dl (keeping it CB evidently)
I like ironic music more than I did at uni -- back then I was disheartened that no-one gave a shit about music the way I did. Now I care less, really. The discussions on ILM are no doubt proof that good shit is out there, but the fact is it isn't popular -- I'm not harking back to golden ages, just saying that I feel isolated from it in a way I didn't when 16-17 -- and I'm not old and passed it.

Something's wrong. And the ILX line in which any talk of this kind is narrow and nostalgic isn't selling me any more -- the people I meet are not music obsessives, or writers, and I find their total lack of interest in being up on music fascinating, completely at odds with what I expected of life as a teenager. It isn't the lack of explicit political content that bothers me, it's the general lack of engagement in... stuff.

Ronan otm abt pre-acid clubs, but-but-but things have definitely regressed. Radio 1 was much more edge in the mid-late nineties for example. Now it's all RHCPs and Franz Ferdinand.

Enrique do you mean just that in general people aren't INTO music as much anymore? I'm not sure I follow your third paragraph.

West End Girls, if it is "socially conscious", is socially conscious minus those scare quotes, ie astute as opposed to vaguely lamenting.

As Ronan says, you're making rules and attempting to bolt them onto a style of music which ill befits them. No one levels the apolitical/apathetic slur at The Strokes/Oasis/The Happy Mondays (going back generations here), why do they get a free pass?

Also, it carries the sneering inference that the sort of people who went clubbing in their thousands in the late 90s were utterly ignorant of, or indeed contemptuous of politics, and just wanted to get out of their head. Shock news, previously there existing a drug called 'beer' and a music called 'rock' which enabled people to do exactly the same thing, and was not overtly political, aside from an overly romantacised and possibly exaggerated moment in time in the late 60s, and another one in the late 70s/early 80s.

Also, as Gareth mentions, there's a very narrow definition of politics at work here. If clubbing is/was a capitalists wet dream, then going dancing every weekend is a political act, regardless of whether it dovetails with the kind of politics you would like. What you appear to be mentioning is a politics of dissent.

In what way is this an apathetic generation? Millions out on the street protesting against the war in Iraq. A lot of these people are the same people out there going to house nights, drum and bass nights, garage nights, whatever. In any case, dance music and dance culture was inherently political up to 1995 or therabouts.

There's also the utterly fallacious notion that the sort of people who in 2000 were watching Big Brother and listening to trance would 20 years ago have been discussing the miner's strike and Marxism and reading Dostoevsky. Its harking back to some socio-political-intellectual golden age that never existed.

I remember proper illegal parties and small clubs alike were equally political at inception due to the libertarian and egalitarian approach of those running them and became extremely politicised when the Criminal Justice Bill came along. Very few actual TUNES manage to be anything more than signifiers for that time through lyrical content but there's a reason so many fucking sirens were there from '90.

over the weekend i felt that inanity was a big issue that hadn't been brought up on this thread enough. the inanity of certain fads that people indulge in, the trivialism, the banality. but i guess that's often what makes fun fun e.g. cheesy student nights or whatever

Actually, maybe it's this I'm getting cross with. It's not just clubbing, although this often ties in with it. I'm not rating myself above anyone, I'm no smarter than the average bear - I'm not a writer or a thinker or an artist - I'm not prizing myself any higher than anyone else when I say this. When I speak to a lot of people my age, I can tell that they possess the intelligence and skill to be able to hold an intelligent conversation about "stuff" as you say, or to have a hobby, or telling me about something they enjoy doing. Instead I get the impression that they dumb themselves down and this makes me dumb my conversation down, until all the conversation is about is "blahblahblah 'avin it blahblahblah big brother blahblahblah". It's as though people are afraid of challenging each other's minds, or scared of belittling each other...

Again I don't know where I'm going here and realise I'm coming off as an arsehole. I can't even begin to explain my disppointment with a lot of people I always rated higher. I'm gonna chill back and see how this thread goes now.

I think, to try to chrystallize it, it's the absense of music *culture* that bothers me. The mag-foldages are one facet of this.

No one levels the apolitical/apathetic slur at The Strokes/Oasis/The Happy Mondays (going back generations here), why do they get a free pass?

Well, I do and they don't! Also, as Gareth mentions, there's a very narrow definition of politics at work here. If clubbing is/was a capitalists wet dream, then going dancing every weekend is a political act, regardless of whether it dovetails with the kind of politics you would like. What you appear to be mentioning is a politics of dissent. I've tried to deal with this, but this is so boilerplate ILX stuff, and it just doesn't chime at all with my experience. We can try to theorize our way out of the fact of political disengagement, but only for so long.

I'm in no way advocating earnestness and I am one of the more frequent posters on the BB thread. I'm dragging this out a bit, but frankly today is *not* a day for saying an interest in actual IRL politics (as opposed to the politics of dancing which I don't deny but... postpone, shall we say) is narrow.

No-one made that suggestion did they? But again, if anyone on ILX mentions the past they are immediately accused of 'harking back' to 'imaginary golden ages'. It's a bit weird!

x-post Enrique don't you think that trying to see the problems with IRL politics or the way those who have a real interest in it treat it is just as apt today as any other approach? I mean isn't as much of the problem to do with how the political engage with the apolitical or the disillusioned?

also it's the absense of music *culture* that bothers me

I think, and I know this is such a cliché, if you were out really indulging in some type of music or going to see DJs or something alot, or even frequenting record shops you'd find a culture there.

Er, that sentence is the first time those scare quotes went on. Are you saying that the stuff people your age are listening to was "socially conscious" rather than socially conscious?

I do think it's a shame there's a type of music they don't make much of anymore, and I am suprised at how gleeful I am that the on-paper dull and "worthy" Faithless single is in fact ace.

Of course it's not like "good" music has better odds than any other sort at being good music, it may just be that they made more of it back then. "Small town boy" AND "Don't leave me this way".

For me the thing in the 90s (which was the start of this Generation Y apathy, the rule that No Logo was the exception to) was going "Hooray, we've won! Oh fuck, that's not us!".

http://www.heavenly100.com/img/artists_pics/socialism.jpg

I guess reacting agin this was important -- but because it wasn't laid on me (I had '88 mythology to content with -- from Shoom *and* from Chuck D) it hasn't been a great burden.

Oh I guess I dugged the MFTJG sleeve at 13. Erm, but then I liked the Manics...

Which is what I was railing against and regardless of whether Doglatin was playing devil's advocate or not this attitude is annoyingly prevalent even among educated people who should know better. Its also only really a small step away from the Daily Mail "Television is corrupting our youth, I remember when I was a child we all gleefully read books" line.

Damn, Tim has made me feel mildly silly but I'm going to post this anyway.

(xpost HAHAHA PHEAR MY MIGHTY PHALLUS oh sorry wrong thread)

Enrique if you look back on the MFTJG sleeve and cringe, that strikes me as more disappointing than the idea that it was JUST a naive statement to be discounted now

The thing is, the sense of "we've won" is never going to be anything but a false dawn because there is never a victory in life as regards anything, it's an ongoing series of problems/solutions.

How's he doing the Jamaica rap?
He's from just south of the Watford Gap
He gives us stick about the north/south divide
'cause they got the jobs
Yeah, but we got the side

That's some heavy shit there, people.

most unfortunate considering they were thrown at him on one occasion. actually maybe THIS was why all along...'racialist? why no your honour i'm just a little hard of hearing!'

I cringe in the same way I cringe at 'Gold Agin the Soul', on aesthetic grounds which are also political. Liam 'n' co are not very axiomatic of what's happened to rave culture BUT they aren't quite the idealists any more, or if they are it's in an entirely different way.

I think the fact that the anti-Bush coalition is all over the place is overshadowing the fact that the pro-Bush coalition is equally all over the place. If the War on Terror ended tomorrow, there'd be a lot of "hang on, why are we supporting this guy again?". But the WoT is designed to be without end... (puts on tin-foil hat)

sorry, this is the one i was looking for. i dont like the attitudes expressed in this thread, and i think its a shadow that hangs over this one, and others, also

Not as good as the "bag of chips" comment though. I love it when people remind me of things I should never have forgotten.

To be honest, in Oxford you can pretty much avoid the problems described initially on this thread by DL by avoiding *one particular* club.

Matt otm re chips.

!

Actually I tell a lie, there's a place in Hitchin that used to be famous for all the teenie boppers and townies to go to. It cost about £8 to get in and then about £3 for a drink and it was SO SHIT! It closed down for about a year and then a big fanfare was made that it had been taken over with loads of money being poured into it and it was definitely NOT going to be like before, with talk of decent proper dance nights and even maybe gigs and things.
So we went to the grand opening because we'd heard it was free entrance. It cost £10 to get in, £4 for a drink and the music was atrocious, I mean really really bad - it was like some kind of Now Dance compilation from 1997 - the newest track they played was that Tori Amos Armand Van Helden remix. We left after 25 minutes of hurriedly necking 330ml bottles of Grolsch and looking sorrowfully at a quarter-empty dnacefloor.

The bar / pool hall I was in last night had a dancefloor. The DJ appeared to be operating out of a time portal from 2001.

ROCKIST!!!!! OMG!!!!111

-- Ronan (ronan.fitzgerald6NOSPA...), July 16th, 2005. (later)

Me!

putin looks like he is going out on the town in a couple of hours, prob destiny in watford

Except for Up Middle Finger.

Reviving this old post to say I went to London mega-club Drumsheds this weekend and it was.. kind of dismal?

The whole thing is situated in a big disused IKEA with all the resplendent warmth and personality that might have to offer. Three gigantic echoey rooms with high ceilings joined by an extremely noise-filled link of overpriced bar areas.

Overzealous security (I got whisked away to a mobile cabin and interrogated on suspicion of carrying drugs (which I wasn't). And when they couldn't find anything on me, they tried to confiscate my (empty) personal water bottle for some reason. When I explained I had brought it for my 3 hours journey from Bristol and that it was going in the locker I'd hired at extra expense, they arse-ily conceded.

The toilets are in a single block complex on the lower floor, which meant that any time you wanted to go to the loo, you would need to leave where you were, negotiate crowds, cross the link, go down three flights of stairs, queue up, then come back.

Drinks were something stupid like £7 for a 330ml can of 4% lager. Unfortunately, as it was a several-hour day party I got into the mindset of "maybe if I have another drink I'll start having fun". Now I daren't check my bank balance.

Also, despite a fantastic lineup with Four Tet, Yung Singh, Blawan, The Bug, Kode9 and many others, the music sounded pretty awful. Maybe a gigantic reverberating metal room isn't the best place to hear dance music. Every beat and sound was smeared with so much room echo it hardly registered as music. The Bug's set was practically unlistenable.

And looking around at the punters, I didn't really get the impression that people were having an awful lot of FUN. There was something grim and "getting-along with it" about the general atmosphere.

NOTE: Unlike twenty years ago I don't hate clubbing. Once I'd discovered the power of intimate spaces for dancing, my opinion flipped away from my experiences at mucky mershy provincial nights. As a DJ I spend a lot of time in clubs, and being on a dancefloor or behind the decks makes me very happy.

With the closure of something like ten London venues a week, we need MORE clubs. We need small and medium-sized spaces that can nurture and showcase new talent. A ginormous mega-venue in the middle of a commercial area represents a Wetherspoonsification of clubbing in my view: You know, when all the family-run pubs in town have to shut and you're just left with one giant Tim Martin-owned building, soulless and selling the same beer as all the rest.

That sounds nightmarish.

I think I've developed an allergy to big concerts and clubs (and I was never a festival person). I just want to see jazz in small rooms and occasionally dance in small clubs or parties w/good sound.

Never been to the UK but on the No Tags podcast they talk a lot about these mega clubs (and the money behind them) and the overall club ecosystem.

I’ve never been tempted by Drumsheds v2. I went to the previous incarnation for one of the Hydra parties with Jeff Mills etc - it was this cavernous great building with a ceiling maybe 7 or 8 stories high and equally huge doors to the outside always open. This was in the directly post Covid era so it was as close to being outdoor as you could be, while being sheltered in a rave in winter.

I got similar vibes about the ‘enduring it’ vibe from a decent amount of punters but you never quite know nowadays whether it’s just that everyone’s stuffed to the gills with coke. Or holding out as long as they can before ordering another £11 ‘hard seltzer’.

The idea of going back to an enclosed and even more expensive version doesn’t really appeal although I’ve never really warmed to London clubbing compared to Bristol.

xp I've been enjoying the No Tags podcast as well Jordan. It is very London-centric of course. Luckily Bristol still has a fair few middle-sized spaces still going. But no, this is the last time I attend a big club like this. Funnily, I generally like dance music in big festival tents - feels more vibey

Willl, yeah I hear you. Other than this, and a similar thing at Printworks earlier in the year, I haven't been clubbing in London for a long time, and I can't rmemeber the last time I danced in a medium-sized London club. From what I recall of going out to gigs and club nights in London before I moved over here, people were generally a bit more reticent about dancing - a bit more reserved - but I'm sure there are exceptions to all that