You're a bunch of Voice-worshipping music-critic pretenders.

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or so says Andy Wang in this Broken Social Scene review.

He also uses the word "fuck" twice in the same paragraph, so you know he's pretty hard.

Enjoy.
TMFTML

― TMFTML (TMFTML), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 17:27 (twenty-two years ago)

I am jealous of Pitchfork! It's official!

― M Matos (M Matos), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 17:29 (twenty-two years ago)

i wish i hadn't read that, what a wanker.

― Ronan (Ronan), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 17:30 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm just confused. What about those people here who write for Pitchfork? Mr. Wang = poor researcher.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 17:30 (twenty-two years ago)

pitchfork in clear thinking, readable shocker

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 17:33 (twenty-two years ago)

NY Press in hating the Voice at all times, loudly shockah

― M Matos (M Matos), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 17:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Matos you didn't answer my email, did I yak on your sleeve or something

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 17:36 (twenty-two years ago)

"These writers have wasted thousands of words railing against Pitchfork’s fakeness, shallowness, whatever."

has anyone here ever moaned about Pitchfork being 'fake' or 'shallow'? really?

― DG (D_To_The_G), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 17:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Bluto: "Did we quit when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?"
Delta house member, responding to puzzled look: "Don't stop him, he's on a roll"

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 17:40 (twenty-two years ago)

I THINK THIS MEANS WE'VE WON!

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 17:40 (twenty-two years ago)

but at what cost?

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 17:41 (twenty-two years ago)

like....he's called WANG.

what is pitchfork...and when was indie rock highly experimental ?

― gE0rdIEr0b0t (s.r.w.), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 17:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Hilarious. So don't hate on Pitchfork just because it's sophomoric and amateurish just like the music they write about, and because they occasionally get something right?

― Aaron W (Aaron W), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 17:41 (twenty-two years ago)

they bring it on themselves with fans like these, they really do.

I mean isn't the main gripe with Pitchfork, the eternal, never ending one, the fact that it is so blinkered towards indie rock. Yet this guys article is written as though this was the only genre which exists.

Also I have a burning and a bitter hatred for the tendency among indie fans to rationalise other peoples dislike for things. If you're reviewing Broken Social Scene and the best thing you can tack together is a disclaimer about why the band aren't universally critically acclaimed then you might want to consider an alternate career.

It's always a danger in criticism to begin a review with an axe to grind, but to not use your better judgement to leave all of this out is ridiculous, particularly when the band is one which generates about as much controversy as me forgetting to empty the lawnmower.

This whole answer is a waste of time but might as well get the hate out here for fear I'd make an absolute sheeps balls by including it in an article. Heaven forbid.

― Ronan (Ronan), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 17:42 (twenty-two years ago)

But can you think of any time you cared more about music than when you were in college?

― g--ff c-nn-n (gcannon), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 17:42 (twenty-two years ago)

ha ha this article is like a professional troll: "the wrongly named 'i love music' board"...he should have questioned whether or not we have indie guilt too

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 17:42 (twenty-two years ago)

but at what cost?

We got what we wanted, but lost what we had.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 17:43 (twenty-two years ago)

jess I'd totally like your writing better if it wasn't so darn "impenetrable."

Also, I love that "fakeness, shallowness, whatever". Well gee, I dunno "Andy Wang", you tell me?

What a bizarre article - the diatribe is completely gratuitous. He could've used his word count to actually say something about this supposedly interesting band, but chose to go off on this neurotic tangent. Surely most readers won't even know what he's talking about. Does NYPress have editors?

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 17:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Someone needs to start a "Broken Social Scene sucks" thread. Pitchfork likes them, you know.

― TMFTML (TMFTML), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 17:44 (twenty-two years ago)

The leap from talking about BSS to talking about... pitchfork and ILM is so tortured it makes my head hurt. I think my stomach is twitching in sympathy pain for the laws of logic.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 17:44 (twenty-two years ago)

of course, the fact that BSS is one of the most boring bands in the whole fucking world has nothing to do with it.

also, he compains about the voice's "impenetrable prose" and I'm no reader of the voice, so I wouldn't know, but impenetrable is surely preferable to his teenaged-diary scribblings.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 17:45 (twenty-two years ago)

We should have Custos give him a logistical beatdown.

― Ally (mlescaut), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 17:45 (twenty-two years ago)

J0hn--of course I did. Busy busy busy is all.

― M Matos (M Matos), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 17:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Ha, my sister is dating one of the NY press editors. Apparently they hate Andy Wang too, or at least he does.

― NA. (Nick A.), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 17:47 (twenty-two years ago)

ronan you FUCKING FUCK, empty the FUCKING lawnmower NOW!!

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 17:47 (twenty-two years ago)

The really funny thing is when you check out Broken Social Scene...C/D? and see that BSS were rated fairly high.

― Aaron W (Aaron W), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 17:47 (twenty-two years ago)

"empty the lawnmower"??

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 17:48 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah, i think diamond/sterlings point(s) are what stuck out most for me: what editor would have thought that pitchfork/ilm were worth that much column space, let alone in such an irrational/inexplicable way? ha, ironically i can tell you that chuck would have cut it in 10 seconds as "unrelated".

i think he means the fancy "bag" tracer...you know those brits

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 17:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Does NYPress have editors?

Jeff Koyen, its editor-in-chief, writes a terrific column that always begins like this: "So Ilya, the thirty-dollar an hour Uzbekistani whore, is ramming a giant black dildo up my ass."

― TMFTML (TMFTML), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 17:49 (twenty-two years ago)

Andy Wang = Federico

― Nicole (Nicole), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 17:50 (twenty-two years ago)

I mean seriously, those of you pro writers or in publishing (because I'm not) - enlighten me. How can a professional editor - a guy on somebody's payroll to edit; a guy getting up, going to work everyday and receiving a salary to edit - receive this piece and not ask him to rewrite it? How does that process work?

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 17:50 (twenty-two years ago)

dude I just realized who andy wang is!!

Former editor of never-ran webmag ironminds.com, broken scorned and bitter.

http://www.nypress.com/content.cfm?content_id=2953

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 17:52 (twenty-two years ago)

maybe he's bitter that ILx has become something of a Voice farm team and NY Press hasn't. (haha, I've written for both so I'VE PAID MY DUES TWICE OVER MOTHERFUCKERS!)

― M Matos (M Matos), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 17:53 (twenty-two years ago)

I like the fact that indie rock has just now discovered (according to Wang) that the age of the individual auteur is over. Isn't this precisely the grounds upon which indie purists slagged off on dance music back when electronica boomed in the US? (Michiko Kakutani in indie purist shocka!)

― philip sherburne (philip sherburne), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 17:53 (twenty-two years ago)

according to NY Press electronica doesn't exist

― M Matos (M Matos), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 17:55 (twenty-two years ago)

I mean seriously, those of you pro writers or in publishing (because I'm not) - enlighten me. How can a professional editor - a guy on somebody's
payroll to edit; a guy getting up, going to work everyday and receiving a salary to edit - receive this piece and not ask him to rewrite it? How does
that process work?

Well, it's a column, for one thing. Most editors don't give a shit that somebody whom someone else hired is making an ass of themselves.
You should see the stuff that runs in the paper that I write for. Yeesh.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 17:55 (twenty-two years ago)

ronan you fuck you don't even push the fucking thing it's a FUCKING RIDE-ON YOU SELL-OUT!!

also you veered to go over a slug you hata

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 17:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Former editor of never-ran webmag ironminds.com

Oh that's funny. Paul Chaplin of MST3K got in some good pieces for Ironminds but that was about all it was worth.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 17:56 (twenty-two years ago)

I think Wang also had a hand in that Brooklyn weekly that the genuinely horrible Erin Franzman started up a couple years back; not sure if that's still around (I'm guessing not)

― M Matos (M Matos), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 17:59 (twenty-two years ago)

The Broken Social Scene thing really was great to see. I think there was sort of an editorial decision at Pitchfork to really dig through everything that came in and really push for the worthwhile stuff that wasn't getting coverage elsewhere -- hence Ryan's review starting off by talking about how terrible the packaging made it look. But it really is a good and interesting record: it sounded that way to me straight off, and when the review ran the American readers agreed and the Canadian readers said "told you so" and everyone was happy. I dunno, it was sort of a heartwarming example of things going right, you know -- indie site finding good indie record its indie-fan readers are gonna enjoy. It brings a tear to your eye, man.

I don't remember ILM saying anything at all about all of that -- in fact, if I remember right there are plenty of people here who like Broken Social Scene and were happy to see them getting attention. This just might possibly maybe have something to do with the fact that it's an indie record and not Basement Jaxx or Fischerspooner -- and even in the depths of ILM Pitchfork-bashing I don't think anyone's argued that Pitchfork doesn't know how to deal with indie records (except for the people who say "oh they're poor fact-checkers cause that bass player's name is Fischer, not Fisher" and the ones who say "oh all their writers suck" as if they've actually paid attention to which is which).

― nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 18:01 (twenty-two years ago)

I can't figure out where I fit in: I like Broken Social Scene, I'm a member of ILM, I used to write for P'fork and now I write for the Voice. I FEEL CONFLICTED!!!

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 18:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Although Ronan, I have to say that I've never understood why the "Pitchfork is too indie" complaint would make any more sense than "The Source is too hip-hop."

― nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 18:03 (twenty-two years ago)

When You Forgot It in People dropped in Canada last year

This is GEBT! Albums just don't drop in Canada often enough, yo.

― Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 18:04 (twenty-two years ago)

becuz the Source doesn't devote 10% of its space to stating 'our music is REAL music, unlike that crap on the CMJ charts'

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 18:06 (twenty-two years ago)

the ones who say "oh all their writers suck" as if they've actually paid attention to which is which

You mean it's not just one guy using different names?

― TMFTML (TMFTML), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 18:07 (twenty-two years ago)

hell hath no fury like the ILM massive publicly slandered

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 18:07 (twenty-two years ago)

plus the lawn looks like shit also

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 18:09 (twenty-two years ago)

I dunno, Blount, I think that's a cheap caricature: I can't say I get to read everything on Pitchfork, but I think that attitude's something that gets read into the material far more than it's actually there.

I mean, it's an indie review site with some coverage in other "compatible" genres; over the past half-year or so I don't think any of the forays into other genres have wound up like the Basement Jaxx or Fischerspooner reviews did, since writers like Richardson, Beta, Martelli, and Shephard pretty much know what they're doing outside of indie. I'm sure some of my forays into dance music have been painfully ill-informed, but at least they've been, umm, enthusiastic.

Anyway, ILM is gonna like Pitchfork a whole lot better pretty soon, is my guess.

― nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 18:09 (twenty-two years ago)

wait a minute... you guys are all rock critics!

― autovac (autovac), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 18:12 (twenty-two years ago)

what Nabisco said. ilm has its ears hyperattenuated to potential indie-condescension like an evangelical Christian monitoring a gay schoolteacher: "See! See! He's trying to indoctrinate them!" "Cool down, man, all he said was 'I really like you guys.'"

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 18:14 (twenty-two years ago)

Anyway, ILM is gonna like Pitchfork a whole lot better pretty soon, is my guess.

Are you threatening us?

― King Kobra (King Kobra), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 18:14 (twenty-two years ago)

OTM

― stevie (stevie), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 18:15 (twenty-two years ago)

Andy lives up to his last name.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 18:16 (twenty-two years ago)

Threads like these make me happy that I only post nonsensical shit.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 18:19 (twenty-two years ago)

It's true, I don't value Pitchfork as highly as I once did, two or three years ago. And a small part of that, I'm sure, has to do with various comments people have made here on ILM. But did I read that Broken Social Scene review? Yes. And even though I hate the fact that Schreiber feels the need to justify their catchiness ("It's not pandering in any way!"), and the smugness of his non-sequitur dig at Beth Gibbons, was I nonetheless intrigued by his descriptions of the band? Yes. Was the review at least partially responsible for me buying the album? Yes.

Wang makes it sound like there's this whole collective of Pitchfork hatas that are refusing to pay attention to Broken Social Scene out of spite. But if there are things I don't like about Pitchfork, that has to do mostly with editorial attitude, and I can clearly separate that from the bands they cover. I still read the website, after all.

― jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 18:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Anyway, ILM is gonna like Pitchfork a whole lot better pretty soon, is my guess.

Ryan Schreiber is resigning? Cool!

― Nicole (Nicole), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 18:20 (twenty-two years ago)

I thought the article was funny. But what do I know? I've *never* read the Voice!!

― doom-e, Tuesday, 10 June 2003 18:21 (twenty-two years ago)

pitchfork's new slogan: "all t.a.t.u, all the t.i.m.e"

― mitch lastnamewithheld (mitchlnw), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 18:23 (twenty-two years ago)

"impenetrable"

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 18:24 (twenty-two years ago)

The leap from talking about BSS to talking about... pitchfork and ILM is so tortured it makes my head hurt.

has the ny press ever written about anything -- a record, a movie, a political position, a sex act -- without spending several paragraphs explaining what other writers at other publications are saying about it?

the real shockah here is that mr. wang forgot to directly quote either pitchfork or ILM for paragraphs at a time, as the ny press normally requires.

― fact checking cuz, Tuesday, 10 June 2003 18:24 (twenty-two years ago)

Anyway, ILM is gonna like Pitchfork a whole lot better pretty soon, is my guess.

Yeah, I wanna know what this means, too. You know something we don't, Nabisco?

― jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 18:24 (twenty-two years ago)

Based on the "Best Album Released Today" thread, I think what Nabisco means is that the new Steely Dan album is getting a 10.0.

― NA. (Nick A.), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 18:26 (twenty-two years ago)

But still, everyone here does whinge an awful lot (and I'm included - see the BANG thread) about media. But when I stop and think about what sort of magazine that ILM would produce, in print, I have to stop and shudder. Just being honest, y'all. I enjoy alot of the writing on here - but - y'know, some of it *is* impentrable. And I scan it more often than read it. 'Cause I would rather read JD Salinger, Rick Moody, etc.

Question: Most complaints go about: Why is there not moreorless bad reviews of albums? Pitchfork offers up more bad review per rota than any other magazine. What would you want pitchfork to become?

(PS Not trolling - i.e. giving an opinion)

― doom-e, Tuesday, 10 June 2003 18:27 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah, my problem with pitchfork tends to come with some - some - of the awful writing, which to be fair is still better than 95% of alt-weaklies. trife once complained to me they wouldn't let him review Cam'ron (I think) and while I can understand his gripe - 'you're allowed to write about fucking (insert generic awful indie act here) but not Cam'ron!' - but at the same time I think he misunderstands (understatement) the point of pitchfork. I read it, which is about the highest compliment I can pay any print anything, and the NYLPM thing they started has proven especially valuable. still, the 'indie is real music, unlike that crap on the charts' attitude isn't to hard to find there (just read the oft-linked basement jaxx review or search the term 'bling bling'). considering how dominant this outlook is in its audience though (fair estimate: at least 50% of the indie audience listen to indie because of said ideology), it's a miracle it doesn't crop up more often. I've attacked pitchfork before, for specific things (like preferring sting to prince)(and I hate hate hate when people whine about 'rock critics' and then don't provide a specific instance of what they're whining over. how much of a pussy do you have to be to whine about rock critics anyway?), and I've praised/defended it for many things - cheap ad rates, the newswire (which I know people have gripes with but oh well), a handful of the writers I look forward to reading (coincidentally they tend to be the ilxors), they really really reach and influence their target audience (a double edged sword admittedly). the good outweighs the bad. still, how many jokes about jay-z has pitchfork cracked? how many jokes about conor oberst has the source cracked? who would you rather listen to?

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 18:28 (twenty-two years ago)

But can you think of any time you cared more about music than when you were in college?

HAHAHAHAHA!!! (whatbullshit!) My three-year old cousin truly and deeply cares more about her Barney songs than half the collegiate bed-wetters of America care about fucking Wilco or whomeverthefuck is "college music" nowadays. Blee'dat.

― Jeanne Fury (Jeanne Fury), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 18:30 (twenty-two years ago)

I always sort of guessed that Pitchfork got many "leads" on their "news stories" from ilm since many tidbits show up here then pitchfork the next day. Not that it matters.

With regards to Pitchfork: "Say what you will about the tenets of national socialism, Dude, but it least it's an ethos."

― scott m (mcd), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 18:32 (twenty-two years ago)

oh look its lack of "clearly definiable music taste" come back for the second day in a row.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 18:34 (twenty-two years ago)

I yawn at all of this.

― die9o (dhadis), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 18:36 (twenty-two years ago)

But when I stop and think about what sort of magazine that ILM would produce, in print, I have to stop and shudder.

That's the beauty of ILM as message board vs. print/web magazine. The latter, apparantly, always feels the need to justify its existence -- which is my personal biggest gripe with hackneyed journalism: that little running subtext of "I really know what I'm talking about and I have important things to say and LISTEN TO ME!!!!" -- whereas ILM is just a running dialog of peeps talking about whatever they feel like that particular day.

― Aaron W (Aaron W), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 18:37 (twenty-two years ago)

WE'RE FAMOUS! WE'RE FAMOUS!

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 18:50 (twenty-two years ago)

what do you mean 'we' kemosabe?

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 18:53 (twenty-two years ago)

oh man I love autovac's comment. the moment of terror when a casual reader wanders into ILM and slowly realizes exactly who the main body of regular posters are... wait a minute... you guys are all rock critics!

I love this board. Seconding Aaron W's comments, I'd much rather sort through a rambling, 400 message post about a new album than a fucking professional review, even the relaxed pitchfork 'professionalism' they're trailblazing the 'online publication' medium with. On ILM, you get the bilious posts that reviewers wouldn't dare publish in their 'real' reviews. Yet here they all are, published, archived, online.

I apologize for anything mean I've ever said about anyone's work on this board, ever.

― jl, Tuesday, 10 June 2003 18:54 (twenty-two years ago)

including my involuntary crack about 'fucking professional reviews'. I read those too of course, I'm addicted to music discourse, especially seeing as I can't write that well myself.

― jl, Tuesday, 10 June 2003 18:55 (twenty-two years ago)

at first i thought this thread title said we were a bunch of "Vice-worshipping" music crit pretenders, and i was like oh no here we go again!

this is too easy though

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 19:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Clearly this writer has not seen my unfathomably profound treatise on overacademic bullshit.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 19:03 (twenty-two years ago)

man I hope Andy Wang shows up.

― g--ff c-nn-n (gcannon), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 19:06 (twenty-two years ago)

you always say that!

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 19:06 (twenty-two years ago)

he probably saw all the calum threads and thought 'what da? these punks aint talking about music at all'

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 19:07 (twenty-two years ago)

the best thing to come of this is that it'll lure nate patrin outta hiding

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 19:07 (twenty-two years ago)

No, the "will like better" thing was a random brain-fart in-joke, mostly (plus a sense that the usual ILM complaints, most of which I completely understand even when I think they're a bit exaggerated, are rapidly getting swept away and will shortly start sweeping even faster -- probably partly because of ILM's noticeable bitching!).

― nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 19:14 (twenty-two years ago)

every time that i read that the village voice is impenetrable, it makes me wish that i was more impenetrable. i will try harder in the future.

― scott seward, Tuesday, 10 June 2003 19:18 (twenty-two years ago)

sonuvagun, the day we hear about this Pitchfork runs a Oh-Radiohead-You-Are-So-Godly-and-beyond-me-how-I-can-ever-understand-your-glory review and a I-liked-you-when-I-was-young-and-you're-no-worse-now-but-I-hate-you-I-like-radiohead-now-cuz-I'm-deep negative review of the Figgs. The kind of stuff that makes me regret reading more than the news on there.

I don't wanna be impenetrable, I wanna be LOOSE!

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 19:20 (twenty-two years ago)

i'm going to write in nothing but dingbats from now on

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 19:21 (twenty-two years ago)

try these scott:
http://shop.vaultstuff.com/isroot/Vaultstuff/SiteImages/butt_plugs.jpg

― oops (Oops), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 19:21 (twenty-two years ago)

Please stop this phallocentric discourse.

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 19:24 (twenty-two years ago)

sheesh.

― chaki (chaki), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 19:26 (twenty-two years ago)

di390 you're so blase lately.

― hstencil, Tuesday, 10 June 2003 19:28 (twenty-two years ago)

wait they already did that in raygun, didnt they?

damn you richard carson

(ha ha original written "rachel carson")

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 19:31 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm a lapsed NY Press writer and I've gotta say... damn, I'm funnier than that guy. MR STRAUUUUUSBAUGH? Are you listening?

(I think I got sacked for giving Jon Spencer the big thumbs down.)

― Jerry (Jerry), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 19:33 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh, and I've never seen the Voice either...

― Jerry (Jerry), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 19:34 (twenty-two years ago)

Hold up. Maybe it wasn't the Spencer review that tipped it. When did I start posting on ILM? Spooky...

― Jerry (Jerry), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 19:35 (twenty-two years ago)

oh! for a silent spring (summer/autumn...)

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 19:38 (twenty-two years ago)

There hadn't been a decent Pitchfork thread in a while. Nabisco, ixnay on the everything-ay.

― dleone (dleone), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 19:40 (twenty-two years ago)

i don't think i've ever read anything positive about the new york press. i mean about the writing. ever. in all the time that i have known that it existed. the only positive thing i can even think of would be the 2 books that jim knipfel wrote. they got good reviews. but that doesn't even count. i haven't read it in years though. is any of it any good?

― scott seward, Tuesday, 10 June 2003 19:41 (twenty-two years ago)

I like Matt Tabbi's (or however you spell his name) articles, and the occasional Knipfel piece. Other than that, it's a waste of pulp and ink.

― hstencil, Tuesday, 10 June 2003 19:43 (twenty-two years ago)

i like pitchfork for the info.they stay up-to-date which is a big, big plus on the internet. i liked some of brent di somethingorothers reviews. some of them were fookin' funny. he did a sonic youth one that cracked me up. other then him, i don't really know names. and i don't even know how to spell his. my sucky browsers made it impossible to read without my computer crashing though, so i got out of the habit of looking at it. i can't even look at the voice lately. i gotta download something newer. i don't have a problem with pitchfork's worldview, either. they can write whatever the fuck they want to write. i read too many metal magazines to care about democratic outlooks. i just read between the lines.

― scott seward, Tuesday, 10 June 2003 19:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Wingdings, Jess. Wingdings.

― David R. (popshots75`), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 19:53 (twenty-two years ago)

MR STRAUUUUUSBAUGH? Are you listening?

I wouldn't be surprised... he's had some free time on his hands of late.

― TMFTML (TMFTML), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 20:15 (twenty-two years ago)

hey M Matos-- who are you and why am i "genuinely horrible"?

― erin franzman, Tuesday, 10 June 2003 20:22 (twenty-two years ago)

uh-oh

― jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 20:28 (twenty-two years ago)

boy, it's just fite city in here lately.

― g--ff c-nn-n (gcannon), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 20:28 (twenty-two years ago)

I always sort of guessed that Pitchfork got many "leads" on their "news stories" from ilm since many tidbits show up here then pitchfork the next day.

Hmmm... I always thought it was the other way around. (e.g. the Skull Ring thread a couple of clicks north of this one)

― Vek (vek), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 20:29 (twenty-two years ago)

The main thing that no one is discussing here is that the NYPress didn't title their article "U R ALL GAY".

― Ally (mlescaut), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 20:31 (twenty-two years ago)

people in confusing their work with themselves non-shocker

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 20:32 (twenty-two years ago)

haha x-post

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 20:32 (twenty-two years ago)

U R ALL MATELESS!

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 20:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, The Voice does blow, he's right on that. Fucking terrible music writers across the board.

But then again, NY Press kinda blows too (aside from their film critics, the psycho-yet-fun Armond White and the excellent Matt Seitz. Makes Hoberman look like Leonard Maltin...). And where the hell did all THEIR decent music writers go? No more coverage of Holly Golightly, dammit...

But as a paper they have the advantage of actually having some cajones. They don't come across like dinosaurs. And they don't have that Christgau fellow...wot a twat.

― trigger gospel, Tuesday, 10 June 2003 20:39 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah, its a shame the voice can't cover more exciting new music like, uh, holly golightly

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 20:42 (twenty-two years ago)

and use words like "cajones" more often. or better yet "balls out". or better still "balls out rawk".

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 20:45 (twenty-two years ago)

At least he didn't say "crikey" or "guv'nor" though "wot a twat" is probably as bad.

― Nicole (Nicole), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 20:47 (twenty-two years ago)

I like "balls out." Better yet: "balls out and sweaty."

I'm still reeling from the assertion that Bright Eyes, Polyphonic Spree and New Pornographers are important bands who will show us all the way. I weep.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 20:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Ya got yer BALLS to the WAL-LLLL!

http://www.scream.no/magazine/scr38/bilder38/accept.jpg

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 20:48 (twenty-two years ago)

STONES. The Voice doesn't have the STONES to right about Holly Golightly.

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 20:48 (twenty-two years ago)

ha I wrote right instead of write = i am dum

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 20:49 (twenty-two years ago)

I think you all need a dose of this.

― Paul Eater (eater), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 20:51 (twenty-two years ago)

WHO HAS THE EGGS TO EUPHEMISE STONES?

http://www.nationcomics.com/teletub/images/barney.gif

"I do!"

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 20:51 (twenty-two years ago)

(barney in bukkake shockah?!)

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 20:52 (twenty-two years ago)

the terrorists have alre... oh why bother.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 21:03 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm the one who called them "boring hippy crap". it was my fault. they are awful.

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 21:04 (twenty-two years ago)

i swear that Barney gif just moved

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 21:11 (twenty-two years ago)

the only positive thing i can even think of would be the 2 books that jim knipfel wrote. they got good reviews.

Jim Knipfel's two books are really genuinely excellent, and I've enjoyed a lot of the NYPress pieces he's written -- however I think he's best when he's working under a good editor (i.e. not the Press) who can help him hold his self-pity in check.

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 21:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Pitchfork's pretty good with news, I take the reviews with a pinch of salt though. Sometimes the writing is pretty odd and kinda hard to make head nor tail of (eg the bonnie prince billy review earlier this year). Some of the records they give outrageously high reviews to i just dont get, eg wilco, and you will know us.., new pornographers, and often they give 6s and 7s to stuff that i just can't get enough of (eg that bonnie prince record). Sometimes i agree with them though, like with the m. ward record earlier this year, good stuff i thought. The most annoying thing about some pitchfork reviews is that sometimes it feels like there isnt enough love there. the editors need to sit down, and ask "WHERE IS THE LOVE GODDAMMIT!!"

That said i think mark richardson does some really good reviews for pitchfork that ive seen, and i think theres a lot of feeling for the music in his writing, and ive got into some stuff like califone cos of his writing. but i havent seen so many reviews by him recently (having said that, theres one by him up there today i think)

I guess most of these criticisms could be laid on most music magazines or ezines, truth is I prefer reading this ILM place to most of them.

as for wang, well he's probably just angry at having such a lousy name. imagine going thru high school being called wang. heh, ironminds, they used to have derogatis right? i dont like derogatis's writing either.

does derogatis like wang?

― Bob Shaw (Bob Shaw), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 21:28 (twenty-two years ago)

Only in his ass.

Too easy?

Besides, it says right there, it's pronounced WONG. (heh. whatever, dude.)

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 21:30 (twenty-two years ago)

The feeble attempts to rag on Wang's name started out bothersome and are verging on deeply unpleasant.

― nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 21:32 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah, like that's a recent phenom around here

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 21:34 (twenty-two years ago)

"ilx: started bothersome, verging on deeply unpleasant"

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 21:35 (twenty-two years ago)

(When are you going to write some more for PFM, nabisco? Also, are you still in Paris?)

― Cozen (Cozen), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 21:39 (twenty-two years ago)

unpleasantness rocks. barney is the new tonya harding. when is andy wang gonna show up here?

― Bob Shaw (Bob Shaw), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 21:43 (twenty-two years ago)

heh. what's up with the chinese? their names sound like pots and pans! ching chang ping pang! har har.

― jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 21:47 (twenty-two years ago)

jess in sticking up for another person with an easy-to-make-fun-of name shocker!

Did I ever tell you about my brother Mike?

― hstencil, Tuesday, 10 June 2003 21:49 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.mediabistro.com/courses/images/AndyWang.gif

"Jess is a girl's name."

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 21:51 (twenty-two years ago)

did he drum for the breeders and slint?

― gygax! (gygax!), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 21:52 (twenty-two years ago)

I fucked it up.

http://www.mediabistro.com/courses/images/AndyWang.gif

"Jess is a girl's name."

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 21:52 (twenty-two years ago)

gygax! no but he got called to the principal's office a lot.

― hstencil, Tuesday, 10 June 2003 21:53 (twenty-two years ago)

stence its less sticking up for the guy than decrying the level of uh discourse around here lately

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 21:57 (twenty-two years ago)

i feel a bit suspect posting to this thread anyway

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 21:57 (twenty-two years ago)

I know jess I was just teasing you.

― hstencil, Tuesday, 10 June 2003 22:00 (twenty-two years ago)

(Cozen: No, I'm back. Will be back for Pfork, too: reviews of Bergheim 34 and Black Lipstick went up recently, if you're interested.)

― nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 22:03 (twenty-two years ago)

(I never check PFM but I'm on it, thanks nabisco. Did you have a good time? Visit the Palais du Tokyo? I can remember when I went I had this feeling that the director had arrayed the paintings in the form of a series of little jokes, I can't remember my reasons for thinking this though.)

― Cozen (Cozen), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 22:06 (twenty-two years ago)

It’s a record with enough hooks to
knock out Roy Jones, Jr.

if i take his course, will i be able to come up with lines as inspired as this one?

― scott seward, Tuesday, 10 June 2003 22:39 (twenty-two years ago)

Mark, what would you have him do, empty out all the gasoline and set the ground on fire?

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 22:39 (twenty-two years ago)

Frank, why are there som many weenies in the world?

― scott seward, Tuesday, 10 June 2003 22:43 (twenty-two years ago)

so many

― scott seward, Tuesday, 10 June 2003 22:43 (twenty-two years ago)

"genuinely horrible" = EF's writing. I do not know and am not criticizing the person. and yeah, the whole "haha his name's Wang" thing is fucking retarded.

― M Matos (M Matos), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 22:49 (twenty-two years ago)

the name thing, yeah, that goes without saying. especially when there is so much stuff in his article to pick apart and stomp on.

― scott seward, Tuesday, 10 June 2003 22:53 (twenty-two years ago)

heh. what's up with the chinese? their names sound like pots and pans! ching chang ping pang! har har.

It all goes back to Damo Sazuki you poxy fool. Still its weak.

― Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 22:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Did anyone notice that his name is Wang? And that's a slang term for penis? There's comedy gold in there...

― oops (Oops), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 23:07 (twenty-two years ago)

the whole "haha his name's Wang" thing is fucking retarded

Of course it is. But so's "music-critic pretenders, who gather in places like the incorrectly named 'I Love Music' message board."

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 23:17 (twenty-two years ago)

Scott, I don't understand your question.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 23:27 (twenty-two years ago)

oh, frank, yeah, it was just me re-reading that NYP thing and getting hot under the collar. i just wanted to know why there were so many weenies like wang in the world.

― scott seward, Tuesday, 10 June 2003 23:33 (twenty-two years ago)

Of course it is. But so's "music-critic pretenders, who gather in places like the incorrectly named 'I Love Music' message board."

Wang's stupidity doesn't justify *that* kind of stupidity. Yeah, his analysis is way tired-ass and old, but not as old "huh-huh is name is WANG," something he must've heard it all throughout his entire twenty-five (or so) years of existence on this godforesaken orb.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 23:39 (twenty-two years ago)

name-sounds-like jokes are stupid as a rule. always. make fun of the man's argument or don't bother.

― M Matos (M Matos), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 23:42 (twenty-two years ago)

it's pronounced 'oz-whee-pay'

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 23:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Esp. since his argument is so flawed! I find it utterly bizarre that he could link BSS's lack of profile/acclaim to ILM's Pitchfork hatin'.

― Nicole (Nicole), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 23:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Alright, alright. Jeez. I'm not about to defend the position that name jokes are funny. I didn't start this.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 23:46 (twenty-two years ago)

name jokes are immature = can be funny, but /= are always funny

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 23:51 (twenty-two years ago)

i apologize for my use of the word weenie in connection with mr.wang's name. Is "jerk" better? maybe it was subconscious. weenie was the first word that came to mind to describe humourless scolds who write such bizarre things. it's badly written too! which makes it hard to understand why he would want to conjure up the image of a college english class in the middle of it.

― scott seward, Tuesday, 10 June 2003 23:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Sorry for the hateration, KH -- I just know what it's like to be stuck with a funny-sounding name.

Incidentally, as Sherburne pointed out above, there is one interesting point in the article (which really comes from BSS's Kevin Drew), which is the idea that the era of the indivdual genius-auteur may be drawing to a close, and that huge Wu/So Solid/Bonzo Dog-like collectives may be the wave of the future. I don't think that's remotely likely any time soon, but the implications are interesting in a vague sort of way.

I don't believe it for a minute

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 23:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Oops. MD-not-editing-his-posts-very-well-SHOCKAH!

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Tuesday, 10 June 2003 23:57 (twenty-two years ago)

I just know what it's like to be stuck with a funny-sounding name

You are far from alone there, my friend.

― Ned "My Sixth Grade Life was Made Miserable By Idiots Calling Me 'Nerd Faggot'" , Tuesday, 10 June 2003 23:58 (twenty-two years ago)

"James Blount can't get no cunt!"

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 00:02 (twenty-two years ago)

this from my uncle, who's last name is 'Blount' also, wtf?!!!

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 00:03 (twenty-two years ago)

that's why he qualified it with james obv

― mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 00:04 (twenty-two years ago)

for some reason i got stuck with seaweed more often than the much funnier scotty sewer. the origin of all rockcrit revealed!

― Scott Seward, Wednesday, 11 June 2003 00:07 (twenty-two years ago)

try growing up named slutsky!

― s1utsky (slutsky), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 00:07 (twenty-two years ago)

heh

― Grody Deth Hoser (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 00:09 (twenty-two years ago)

James you have the same surname as Le Sun Ra = you are cool!

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 00:11 (twenty-two years ago)

I just want to say that if that guy finds people who write here unpenitrable he's not a very good reader. I'm a horrible reader and I have penitrated every word I've ever read here. I don't always agree with some of the things that are said, but they are often thought provoking. And, if one goes slow enough, always penitrable.

― Applepie Baseball, Wednesday, 11 June 2003 00:17 (twenty-two years ago)

Going slow is key when penetrating.

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 00:18 (twenty-two years ago)

I was Ke-nan the Barbarian. Which is kinda cool, in retrospect. I didn't like it much at the time, tho.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 00:19 (twenty-two years ago)

the idea that the era of the indivdual genius-auteur may be drawing to a close, and that huge Wu/So Solid/Bonzo Dog-like collectives may be the wave of the future.

I think that's kind of a bullshit idea to begin with. Since when is there not room for both?

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 00:26 (twenty-two years ago)

And yes, I understand that he only means that this might be a new trend. But even so, he's going to have to come up with a better example than The Poly-fucking-phonic Spree if he wants to convince me. That's a novelty band.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 00:30 (twenty-two years ago)

it seems truer in the midnineties (Wu-Tang, E6) than it does today

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 00:31 (twenty-two years ago)

DEAR GOD JAMES, I ALWAYS THOUGHT IT WAS PRONOUNCED "BL-OW-NT". The comedy gold I've been missing :'(

― Allison Wonderland (mlescaut), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 00:55 (twenty-two years ago)

maybe we'll all like pitchfork more in a while cause ilx is slowly being taken over by people who like indie
myself,i haven't read it in ages because it crashes my browser but i think its ok,there are some terrible articles but they are usually allright...

― robin (robin), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 01:42 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm not hiding. I just ain't got nothin' to say right now. Also been writing stuff elsewheres.

Uh... have we started mocking JR Taylor yet?

I like indie but I am hating pop less and less. Pitchfork still = pantX0r

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 01:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Kind of off-topic, but the crashing browser thing reminded me that I can never read Stylus -- it always, without fail, kicks out an error message then crashes my browser before I can even read it, and I have no idea why?

Any Stylus writers on here (Kenan, I think?) heard that about the site before? And if so, is there anything I can do (and don't say get rid of that old Mac as I can't afford any major changes or upgrades or whatever)?

― David A. (Davant), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 01:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Besides, wasn't Wu-Tang pretty much Rza and whoever happened to be in the studio that day?

― Mike Taylor (mjt), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 02:02 (twenty-two years ago)

it happens me with a few sites,but its cause i have a really old version of netscape

(my browser crashing,not producing the wu tang)

― robin (robin), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 02:04 (twenty-two years ago)

It's a problem. The page is buggy. Todd is a great guy, and he runs an admirable webzine, but he never claimed to be a web designer.

(Todd: sorry I haven't been more help on this front. I am the essence of slack.)

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 02:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Thanks Kenan. I wasn't bitching -- I really thought it was my ancient Mac clone (tyes, I said clone) that's held together with binder twine and wishful thinking.

I'd love to read Stylus, though :(

― David A. (Davant), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 03:38 (twenty-two years ago)

1. I think it would be a compliment to call me a "music-critic pretender", considering as though even music-critic "pretenders" are actually aspiring to some level of greatness.

2. The Voice, huh? Well, hmm. How can one be a "Voice worshipper" if one's never actually read the Voice?

3. I sense a hint of envy in that article. Bravo to you oldtimers!

― Dee the Lurker (Dee the Lurker), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 04:09 (twenty-two years ago)

heh. what's up with the chinese? their names sound like pots and pans! ching chang ping pang! har har.

Being part china-man, this is very funny.

pitchfork's new slogan: "all t.a.t.u, all the t.i.m.e"

New ILX slogan, surely?

Also, I think Andy Wang is reading this now.

*arms rifle, huddles in corner, alert*

― jm (jtm), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 04:48 (twenty-two years ago)

david, check yr email...

as stated before, wang's transition to pitchfork-love/ilm-hate is a confusing one and while it's a good point that pfork pretty much paved the road for reception in the states for this record it seems a tad extraneous. i also read the link that sterling posted to the article about wang. is the nypress read very widely? i've never heard of it...it seems incredibly poorly written. and if i'm saying that it definitely should mean something.

― todd burns (toddburns), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 05:13 (twenty-two years ago)

Todd Burns wins a cigar!

― M Matos (M Matos), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 06:47 (twenty-two years ago)

See, ILM is a taste tribe, and it's being discussed at the über taste tribe ILE :-)

― Jan Geerinck (jahsonic), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 07:35 (twenty-two years ago)

I used to like NY Press with a sort of sneaking underdog admiration. I mean, I used to read it whenever I was waiting for takeaway food and was careful not to smear too much grease on it. Because they were sort of nice about a lame garage band I was once in, and wrote a rather nice 2-line preview of some show or other we once did...

I wouldn't have read the review had "we" (ILM) not been namechecked in it. As it was, it was just kind of a "whuh?" reaction. He seems to have about the same amount of experience/understanding of what ILM is about as those 15 year old Dave Matthews fans who burst into one thread, decry us as meanies cause we slagged off their heroes and then wander off shaking their fists with adolescent outsider fury.

ANd the end result is that I come away with a horrible distaste in my mouth towards Broken Social Scene based on that review - when actually, if I think about the idea of a collective of wibbling dronerock musicians making pop - well, that was what I was trying to do for the past three years, so honestly, I should like it.

And that's really unfortunate and quite a disservice to the band. :-(

― kate (kate), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 08:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Kate, don't let one writer cause you to miss out on that BSS record. Despite what the haters say, it's great. It's not all wibbling dronerock, it's not all pop, it's just a big happy bittersweet mess that somehow sounds coherent... or maybe it's not coherent and you just don't care because it makes your heart grow three sizes or something.

The Pitchfork review was only one among many to have felt the love.

― David A. (Davant), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 09:16 (twenty-two years ago)

who and where are these "haters" David A speaks of? because I think it got established before that they're not on this board

― M Matos (M Matos), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 09:19 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't want to like it, because it would be too much of an obvious cliche for me to like it.

Don't mind me, I'm just jealous. I was a wibbling dronerocker who went pop FIVE YEARS ahead of the curve, and all those dronerockers laughed at me and wouldn't be my friends. And now they want to be all pop, I'm going to snub them.

― kate (kate), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 09:19 (twenty-two years ago)

'Collectives' are just people gathered around the genius leader to demonstrate said g.l.'s even higher level of superiority over other mortals, in that now ANYBODY can record their own album, but g.l. can manipulate PEOPLE too, the more the superiorer!

― dave q, Wednesday, 11 June 2003 09:28 (twenty-two years ago)

and of course, the more difficult it is for the stupid public to figure out who the genius leader is, the more it proves the awesome power of the latter!

― dave q, Wednesday, 11 June 2003 09:29 (twenty-two years ago)

And what it is about the Canadians that they especially love forming "collectives"? I mean, weren't Do Make Say Think a collective to start with?

― kate (kate), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 09:32 (twenty-two years ago)

what about chas and dave?

― mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 09:34 (twenty-two years ago)

that this thread gets so many replies is weird and disappointing to me. i've never read the voice or pitchfork before today. given the journo-centric nature of ILM i'm not surprised by any criticism but purlease don't honour it with analysis - ILM disappears up it's own arse again.

yr ahl fkd

― gE0rdIEr0b0t (s.r.w.), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 09:35 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't want to give anyone the impression that I think a turn towards collectives is desriable or inevitable. Only that it would "say something interesting" about the music's economic base blah blah blah...

And yeah, what Dave just said. Well, actually, for most rock collectives it IS pretty easy to figure out the leader...

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 09:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Socialism has NO PLACE in music. None at all. Next you'll be saying that democracy has a place in music, which it certainly doesn't. I feel another rant about intraband dynamics coming on, but I'll spare you.

(I'm also jealous that I never managed to attract a "collective" of my own.)

― kate (kate), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 09:38 (twenty-two years ago)

''Next you'll be saying that democracy has a place in music, which it certainly doesn't.''

free improv to thread.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 09:47 (twenty-two years ago)

'what it is about the Canadians that they especially love forming "collectives"?'

cuz everybody lives so far apart maybe? if you've already tried the dictator-model band with everybody in Moose Jaw and it hasn't worked you're kind of fucked, i suppose you have to develop more flexible terms in order to work with anyone at all. Kind of like that thing about people in Wyoming having to stay on good terms with their (miles-away)'neighbours' in case they get trapped in a snowdrift or something. Mind you, I live in the most concentrated buzzing hive-mind of music ppl in the WORLD and I STILL am proving an abject failure at the collaborative-creation thing, so maybe I'm projecting

― dave q, Wednesday, 11 June 2003 09:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Nor does journalism...

*ducking out of the way*

also that piece sucked, but the guy's name isn't the issue... It was just bad, wrong and very poorly written

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 09:53 (twenty-two years ago)

What? Socialism has no place in journalism? Or journalism has no place in music? Fuck off you Welsh bastard, if that's the case. ;-)

― kate (kate), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 09:55 (twenty-two years ago)

TS: The Crass vs M McClaren

― dave q, Wednesday, 11 June 2003 09:56 (twenty-two years ago)

You know what I meant! Gloves are off now btw...

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 10:01 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm lost. What are we fighting about? I'm 30 percent Viking, I will kick yer ass!

― kate (kate), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 10:04 (twenty-two years ago)

Socialism has NO PLACE in music. None at all. Next you'll be saying that democracy has a place in music, which it certainly doesn't.

That's actually not what I'm talking about. It's more like: what would a turn to collectives "say" about the current economic situation? For example: I may be garbling jazz history here, but my understanding is that war-time rationing temporarily made large-scale swing ensembles just not cost-effective, and this in turn made the more hermetic and avant turn of bop all the more attractive to jazzers.

So, why collectives (if it is indeed a trend) and why NOW, especially when the economy is tanking? (Dave Q comes up with one reasonably good explanation re: Canada)

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 10:08 (twenty-two years ago)

The larger the band, the less the profits for anyone. But then again, in a climate where you don't make money at all regardless of how few people you have in your band, you might as well have as many people crammed into it as possible. When a band is making a net profit, you want as few people as possible to maximise the share that each person takes. When a band is making a net loss, you want as many people as possible to minimise the loss that each person has to share.

It does make a kind of economic sense. Eight people can bear the brunt of splitting the cost of a tour van, for example, a lot more easily than say, three.

― kate (kate), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 10:11 (twenty-two years ago)

A democratic collective comprising seven or eight geniuses would be fucking marvellous, obviously, but I'd like to see it happen.

The anti-democratic collective is Primal Scream - a group of shit-hot musicians one of which in particular has an awesome musical pedigree all falling in line behind the utterly clueless leader.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 10:12 (twenty-two years ago)

But that is what makes them so charming...

(However, really, the true musical leader of Primal Scream is Andrew Innes who is a lot less clueless than Bobby G)

― kate (kate), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 10:15 (twenty-two years ago)

maybe not economics at all. maybe 'culture'. to carry on the individual thing you need some form of isolation shielding you from the ugly truth that no matter what your special idea is somebody else somewhere is already doing it, and perhaps such isolation is just not possible anymore. like every time somebody in the world comes up with something parallel to yours you end up hearing about it like 20 minutes before YOU'RE done dammit etc. ssoundingboards/interfaces increase likelihood that some alchemy might happen, even if in the end the desired result is still some romantic notion of an entirely original idea? (not nec. romantic, makes sense in capitalist terms as well ie filling vacuums/niches/being noticed etc., but still, if any cultural explanation is true then that's the first challenge to my extreme hardcorde Marxism in a long while)

― dave q, Wednesday, 11 June 2003 10:17 (twenty-two years ago)

Jess and Matos get a few reviews published, act like authorities shocka.

― Chris Ott (Chris Ott), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 12:12 (twenty-two years ago)

A FEW?!?!?!

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 12:26 (twenty-two years ago)

hey michael daddino! when are you gonna write something for the voice? your pazz&jop essay last year was one of the best things that i've read in a long time.

― scott seward, Wednesday, 11 June 2003 13:21 (twenty-two years ago)

Chris Ott has inferiority-complex attack, acts all stroppy shocka.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 13:27 (twenty-two years ago)

Gulp...when I think of something good to write about. I've been kinda stymied in that direction. The closest thing I can think of are a couple of remix comps. (including the AFX one) which sort of make me despair that the non-ultilitarian remix (ie, the ones that aren't supposed to make you dance) was ever really a great paradigm-shifting idea in the first place.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 13:41 (twenty-two years ago)

umm re orig article. two words stand out. jesus jones. this means the article is not meant to be taken seriously. doesn't it ? its like an 'in-joke' aint it ? i'll get me coat ..

― mark e (mark e), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 13:51 (twenty-two years ago)

And what it is about the Canadians that they especially love forming "collectives"? I mean, weren't Do Make Say Think a collective to start with?

Its a nice way of saying travelling tribute band with no fixed lineup. Do Make Say Think are pretty much a normal band. But they get tied up in other such things like Set Fire To Flame and the Lullabye Arkestra, Gesundheit and Broken Social Scene. Im pretty sure if I think about it long enough i can tie them to the Kosher Rock Records folks like Darkeyes, Creeping Nobodies and Deep Dark United who are all relatively close to High School Champions records folks.
Either way they all show up at Wavelength with regularity, aside from those who live in Montreal.
Now if that list doesn't get some googlers I'll be dissappionted.

― Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 13:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Nick, the site you write for is an inferiority complex, in re: the one I write.

― Chris Ott (Chris Ott), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 14:00 (twenty-two years ago)

You tell yourself that, Chris.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 14:01 (twenty-two years ago)

Chris, do you work for the Pitchfork PR department?

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 14:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Nick in 'Ol' Granny Southall' shocka.

― Chris Ott (Chris Ott), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 14:06 (twenty-two years ago)

aren't do make say think connected to GYBE as well? or do i just get all multi-member canadian indie bands mixed up with one another?

― scott seward, Wednesday, 11 June 2003 14:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Chris which site do you write?

― Tim (Tim), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 14:07 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.bigcworld.com/

according to google he is either a senior editor at pitchfork or he is this guy(see website).

― scott seward, Wednesday, 11 June 2003 14:10 (twenty-two years ago)

Nick in 'Ol' Granny Southall' shocka.
-- Chris Ott (ot...), June 11th, 2003.

Not entirely sure if that's an insult or what.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 14:12 (twenty-two years ago)

We are all inferiority complexes in big c world-world.

― Tim (Tim), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 14:13 (twenty-two years ago)

And it's OK, Chris; I'm a handsome man. I dig that you like me.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 14:13 (twenty-two years ago)

GRR, Dan, GRR...

― Chris Ott (Chris Ott), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 14:14 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't think any member of DMST has been in GYBE, though they share several side projects and the same label. You can tell the two apart by smell, in a group setting DMST are alot better smelling. It wouldn't surprise me to hear of one or to sitting in on the occasional G!Y!B!E! tour but they both started in different cities under different circumstances.

― Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 14:18 (twenty-two years ago)

Pitchfork vs. Voice vs. Stylus FITE!!!

― jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 14:22 (twenty-two years ago)

the voice rulz. you are all fey.

― scott seward, Wednesday, 11 June 2003 14:24 (twenty-two years ago)

Haha! Sorry, I'll shut up now.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 14:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh, lest there be any confusion, that's a typo: should say "the one I write for."

― Chris Ott (Chris Ott), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 14:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh I see it's an indie site fite. As you were then.

― Tim (Tim), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 14:44 (twenty-two years ago)

I object to the use of the word 'indie'. < /head-up-ass >

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 14:54 (twenty-two years ago)

You're on the wrong message boards then, Nick.

― Tim (Tim), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 14:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh, obviously.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 15:00 (twenty-two years ago)

okay just to note that the neumu review sez this: "The rest of 10-piece includes members of Treble Charger, Do Make Say Think, local band Raising the Fawn, Godspeed You! Black Emperor, and various other musicians, actors and record-store employees."

with that sort of pedegree and the indie-tendency to following the lineage of luved musicians thru all their myriad side projects then BSS hardly needed Pitchfork to big them up.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 15:15 (twenty-two years ago)

they have a spread in the new rolling stone

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 15:18 (twenty-two years ago)

Replace Treble Charger with By Divine Right and it may be right. Don't know about G!B!Y!E!! connection (i'll have to check the liner notes of whose creditted) and I have no clue who Raising The Fawn is.

― Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 15:23 (twenty-two years ago)

From David. A's review: "featuring members of, variously, Stars, Do Make Say Think, Treble Charger, A Silver Mt. Zion, Mascott, Godspeed You Black Emperor!, Feist, Royal City, Change of Heart, Bourbon Tabernacle Choir, Raising the Fawn, hHead, Peaches and Metric..."

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 15:28 (twenty-two years ago)

b-b-b-but Chris Ott's cock felt so good in my mouth the other day...

― M Matos (M Matos), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 15:35 (twenty-two years ago)

see, i wasn't crazy. apparently, all members of all multi-member canadian indie bands are connected somehow.

― scott seward, Wednesday, 11 June 2003 15:36 (twenty-two years ago)

The Pitchfork PR department must have a tough job, it's like 3 or 4 Rachel Leigh Cooks with ten thousand nerds they have to give makeovers to before the high school prom. (read as the next Burning Man festival or whatever the fuck)

― Ronan (Ronan), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 15:47 (twenty-two years ago)

oh and I mean nerd in the anal retentive sense, before anyone says "ILM is just like highschool" yadda yadda yadda.

― Ronan (Ronan), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 15:48 (twenty-two years ago)

I wanna know how many Rush members are involved.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 15:49 (twenty-two years ago)

actually it was Freddie Prinze, Jr. giving the makeovers

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 15:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Sexually speaking, I gotta go with Jess over you, Matos. It was a little awkward when you started going off on Eat to the Beat during the rough stuff.

― Chris Ott (Chris Ott), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 15:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Sorry James, at least you knew what I meant.

This thread is further proof that the best and most on point criticisms of ILX come from "within", if such a term can be applied.

― Ronan (Ronan), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 15:55 (twenty-two years ago)

haha like I'd even get into "the rough stuff" with one of the worst music writers in the country

― M Matos (M Matos), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 15:55 (twenty-two years ago)

By-Tor You Black! Snowdog featuring members of Rush, Frank Marino & Mahogany Rush, and The Jon Butcher Axis (wait, they are all canucks, no?)

― scott seward, Wednesday, 11 June 2003 15:58 (twenty-two years ago)

Don't forget April Wine scott.

― Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 16:09 (twenty-two years ago)

ha, the band claims an Andrew Cash connection as well.
I still have no clue who this supposed Treble Charger link is.

Sean, Mr Woods you wanna figure it out?

― Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 16:16 (twenty-two years ago)

I wanna know how many Rush members are involved.

I think Geddy is still smarting from his involvement in the Great White North The Album fiasco. Shame, it was such a beauty eh.

― Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 16:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Can we talk about how brilliant the new line of Visa basketball commercials is? Don Nelson talking Canadian to Steve Nash = classic!

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 16:22 (twenty-two years ago)

I haven't seen that!

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 16:25 (twenty-two years ago)

We need an update on the Schick (Gillette?) ad with Dirk going 'American Girls they likeuh my face?' in full Vlade mode.

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 16:26 (twenty-two years ago)

I also can't figure out for the life of me the Peaches link other then her being pals with some of them. Im going off the AMG listing of group members for BSS here and not the credits on the album.

― Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 16:27 (twenty-two years ago)

Dirk totally stole Like Mike. "Dirk's my sistah!"

The best of the new Visa ads is summer camp with the Chicago Bulls. Tyson Chandler & Jay Williams playing Marco Polo while Bill Cartwright cheers encouragement in his smoker's rasp = funnier than you could possibly imagine.

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 16:27 (twenty-two years ago)

Maybe David A. can splane all the BSS links?

I was asked to interview them next week and said no cuz I figured it'd be dull as shit. But suddenly they're at the epicenter of a megacontroversy! Maybe I'll reconsider!

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 16:29 (twenty-two years ago)

Ask if they will wear all leather pants on stage!?!

― Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 16:32 (twenty-two years ago)

Ask them why their band name is so stupid, and refuse to go on with the interview until they give you a detailed, honest answer.

― NA. (Nick A.), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 16:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Whats so bad about the name?

And nevermind about the leather pants, depending on who you are talking to you'll confuse or anger them.

― Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 16:39 (twenty-two years ago)

can anyone tell me where those cool buldings on the inside of my favorite radical canadian collective The Guess Who's The Best Of The Guess Who are? They say Neptune Trading Company on two of them. Wait, they say SMPD on them. Where is SM? They also say Gay Power and Gay Is Good on them which is why the Guess Who were so radical in 1971. Do the Polyphonic Spree cover Share The Land?

― scott seward, Wednesday, 11 June 2003 16:41 (twenty-two years ago)

I got the perfect list for you to ask assy questions like that on. Its gybe@yahoogroups.com Go there and knock yourself out.

― Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 16:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Can we talk about how brilliant the new line of Visa basketball commercials is?

I love the Baby Bulls one!

― Aaron W (Aaron W), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 16:49 (twenty-two years ago)

i bet that list goes through regular intervals of starting really slowly, then building building building with a flurry of messages, then exploding as they crush the interweb with their electronic missives, then slowly fizzling down again. repeat every two years.

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 16:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Thats about the just of it, with lots of anticapitalistic bullshit repeated from anarchist newsgroups.
They even left Yahoogroups after they bought egroups cause Yahoo was too capitalist for them, but that server broke down and they came back with their tail between their legs.

― Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 16:52 (twenty-two years ago)

hahahaha!

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 16:58 (twenty-two years ago)

The band, ok ok, the 'spokeman' for the band occasionaly slags off the mailing list much like he did to Roman for discussing them in the wrong way. It oddly holds my interest in a love/hate dynamic.

― Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 17:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh, Mickey, you're so fine. You're so fine I...have no idea where I could read one of your Stylus-caliber articles these days. Citypaper? Ouch. Good luck, kid.

― Chris Ott (Chris Ott), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 17:06 (twenty-two years ago)

you are vile.

― jess (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 17:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Dude, Ott, why? This sort of thing only makes you look worse.

― nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 17:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Ott can look worse?

― M Matos (M Matos), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 17:17 (twenty-two years ago)

Nits, please get over your fanboy, lapdog relationship with these ILM geeks. Talk about looking worse. I could give a fuck what these loathsome, self-reinforcing "pantheon" worshippers think of me.

― Chris Ott (Chris Ott), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 17:23 (twenty-two years ago)

wow. wow.

― M Matos (M Matos), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 17:25 (twenty-two years ago)

i see the flowchart 2cds came out, thanks for the tip!

― gareth (gareth), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 17:26 (twenty-two years ago)

chris, you are aware that you write for pitchfork, right? i mean, pitchfork. not, say, the ny times. or spin. or the springfield shopper. did they make you take a blood oath or something?

― jess (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 17:27 (twenty-two years ago)

"Christgau! Christgau! I'm over here!" -- M Meatloaf

― Chris Ott (Chris Ott), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 17:27 (twenty-two years ago)

He's got his eye on a career with ClearChannel.

― Nicole (Nicole), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 17:27 (twenty-two years ago)

i was pretty disappointed that they didnt put it out as one package though all the same, i didnt want to shell out for both discs, what do you think of the rest of the stuff? i didnt actually know most of the stuff other than oskosh/flutterby, so i'm really not sure about whether or not to get it.

matos, you dl the trife cds yet? what do you think?

― gareth (gareth), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 17:28 (twenty-two years ago)

i don't even think we'd hire him!

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 17:29 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.bigcworld.com/

The Big C would never talk like that(see website).

― scott seward, Wednesday, 11 June 2003 17:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, I guess I should write for Blender, Jess, or Magnet. You "go". I'll take a compressed, interested audience over a sprawling, clueless one anyday.

― Chris Ott (Chris Ott), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 17:30 (twenty-two years ago)

"Fuck" off, Ott.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 17:32 (twenty-two years ago)

oh, i dont really think chris is being mean or nasty here, i think its just a little fun at peoples expense i suspect, i think chris comes across as a pretty nice guy, he sent me a flowchart mps, and, i mean, it is nabisco we're talking about, everyone likes nabisco!

heh, chris, you got me with clueless though! that is one i'll hold my hands up to;)

― gareth (gareth), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 17:32 (twenty-two years ago)

Well I wrote that because Ott's subliterate attacks come off like that "Shut up hatas, we play the hits!" letter that one of the ClearChannel flacks wrote to Entertainment Weekly a while back.

― Nicole (Nicole), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 17:33 (twenty-two years ago)

Jess, Matos you go preach to the unwashed masses in the Voice and Rolling Stone. Chris'll be over here in the corner with Thom's jizz dribbling down his chin with the rest of the wallflowers!

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 17:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Gareth, I'm a poor not-able-to-download motherfucker on this old PC. Update should be coming soonish, though.

― M Matos (M Matos), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 17:35 (twenty-two years ago)

i thought this thread might get good, but, alas, i was hoping mr.wang would show up and not some pitchfork dude.

― scott seward, Wednesday, 11 June 2003 17:37 (twenty-two years ago)

The pitchfork dudes have been amoungst us for quite some time Mr Mulder.

― Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 17:41 (twenty-two years ago)

hey chris, i'm not upset, just kinda fascinated. i mean, i didn't really see anyone on ilx attacking pfork on this thread. we were just discussing the work of a writer who had taken ilm and pfork as the (side)subject of one of his columns. i will admit that i find your devotion to your workplace nothing short of remarkable. i mean, a "compressed, interested readership" is all well and good, but people sure do seem to hate on pfork a lot. and i have no trouble picking out when the places i publish print things i don't like or think are subpar...they print things i hate all the time. 's interesting, is all.

― jess (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 17:41 (twenty-two years ago)

but chris is just as much ilm as pitchfork surely?

― gareth (gareth), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 17:43 (twenty-two years ago)

well sure, but so is doom-e. age old argument, innit g?

― jess (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 17:44 (twenty-two years ago)

I make love to this thread.

― scott m (mcd), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 17:44 (twenty-two years ago)

anyway, is there a link online for the baby bulls commercial? i wanna watch it again.

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 17:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Damn, Chris, I really don't want to get into anything here: I was just trying to warn that this sort of thing only reinforces whatever negative ideas about you people were already airing. But yeah, that was wrong of me: I'm sure you know exactly what you're doing and have some sort of reason for it, so forget I said anything.

I'd just ask that you don't turn the spite-nozzle at me. I may not understand why you like doing stuff like this, but I haven't said shit about you or anyone else, so leave me out of it.

― nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 17:47 (twenty-two years ago)

i think at the end of the day it doesnt matter too much because you are judged by your own words and not what others day about you. if i call nabisco a big fucking knobhead, it would say more about me than him, which is why i'm going to do it in an email instead;)

― suddenly realising that like, you know, real actual people read this (gareth), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 17:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Meanwhile, when's Franzman going to defend herself? That one had potential.

― TMFTML (TMFTML), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 17:54 (twenty-two years ago)

I hope it's obvious that Ott is speaking for himself & that the opinions expressed are his only.

Also: I like writing for Pitchfork but it never occured to me that writing about music was a team sport.

― Mark (MarkR), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 17:54 (twenty-two years ago)

there is no "i" in experimental horse

― mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 17:56 (twenty-two years ago)

yes there is, right before "mental"

― jess (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 17:57 (twenty-two years ago)

actually, i'm surprised that the NYP editors left the ILM reference in, as it's pretty obscure and completely tangential. or i would be if i thought that anyone actually edited NYP...

― bucky wunderlick (bucky), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 17:58 (twenty-two years ago)

anyway, is there a link online for the baby bulls commercial? i wanna watch it again.

I couldn't find it anywhere. My favorite part is when they're in the exercise pool playing Marco Polo.

This thread is pretty great. But know what would make it greater?

http://www.fishtaxidermist.com/images/mutton.jpg

― Aaron W (Aaron W), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 17:59 (twenty-two years ago)

It doesn't, really, it's just that I've never been able to go for the rough-and-tumble "let's all just rip into one another, we can take it" thing, especially as I don't like doling out the rips any more than I like taking them. Chris likes it, doesn't mind it, and can be pretty good at it, so whatever: I just get sad when he does it here, because it makes everyone hate Pitchfork.

― nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 18:00 (twenty-two years ago)

but there are TWO "i"s in indie!

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 18:01 (twenty-two years ago)

(Oops, sorry, that was to Gareth.)

― nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 18:02 (twenty-two years ago)

it's cool. he can say whatever he wants. i got no beef with pitchfork. my views are expressed way upthread somewhere. I want mr.wang!

― scott seward, Wednesday, 11 June 2003 18:03 (twenty-two years ago)

does anyone here really hate pitchfork? i don't. i just wish that it didn't always take itself so seriously. it can be very good...

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 18:03 (twenty-two years ago)

come off it sterling, the age of the individual auteur is dead

― jess (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 18:04 (twenty-two years ago)

the many faces of chris ott

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 18:08 (twenty-two years ago)

actually, maybe i'm wrong, i couldnt quite get why people were being angry with each other for no discernable reason, i assumed they were kind of joking or something, it is nothing to do with me anyway

mark, i know individual writers opinions are their own dont worry, you, dleone and nabisco post often enough for me to know you wouldnt go round throwing stuff about!

― embarrassed to be on this thread (gareth), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 18:09 (twenty-two years ago)

there are no "i"s in individual.

(okay, okay, don't hit me, i'll stop)

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 18:09 (twenty-two years ago)

this just in - Peter Gabriel conquers pop, world music.

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 18:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Chris Ott, do people sometimes call you "B3cky Luc4s"?

― M Matos (M Matos), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 18:15 (twenty-two years ago)

if you rub his belly he'll let you call him 'Jim Derogatis'

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 18:17 (twenty-two years ago)

Getting back to the point of this thread, and the thrust of Andy Wang's argument, does anyone actually like the Voice that much here. I mean I've been lurking here for a while, and I've never noticed too much respect being shown its way either. Seems Mr Wang is a bit off with his statemetn. I've read some Village Voice articles, but I've never been that struck by it (I've never bought a print version, what with me living in the UK, but I don't think I would bother even if it was readily available here). I'm not very interested in Christgau either, don't like his writing style, and a lot of the music he's gushed over I've found doesn't work for me. So I guess I'm just asking if theres anyone here who really likes the Voice?

― Bob Shaw (Bob Shaw), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 18:21 (twenty-two years ago)

Aaron W OTM

It takes all kinds. I sure am glad the Voice isn't NY Press isn't Pitchfork because life would be awfully boring. I mean, isn't it great that an NY Press editor let the ilm comment slide? It's so tangential and strange -- and also worth the discussion.

Hi Andy! are you lurking?

― scott m (mcd), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 18:24 (twenty-two years ago)

side note: Please, kindly don't let that evil, evil individual B3cky get back here via google.

― Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 18:26 (twenty-two years ago)

James, now you just made me feel bad for the pitchfork dude. nobody should have to listen to that many peter gabriel albums. or be forced to write that much about them! what do they run over there, a sweatshop!

― scott seward, Wednesday, 11 June 2003 18:27 (twenty-two years ago)

there's alot of voice regulars here (almost as many as there are pitchfork regulars!), but the voice has taken puh-lenty of potshots round these parts.

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 18:39 (twenty-two years ago)

ps. stay away from that thread

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 18:41 (twenty-two years ago)

My Native American name is Stirs The P-Ott. I LOVE YOU ALL GOODNIGHT.

― Chris Ott (Chris Ott), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 18:43 (twenty-two years ago)

your Native American name is Writes Poor Criticism

― M Matos (M Matos), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 18:49 (twenty-two years ago)

“The Charlotte Bobcats team will be as athletic, fierce and hard-working as the bobcat itself,” noted Johnson, who referred to the animal that is being used for the first time asthe name of a professional sports franchise. “No one wants to meet up with a bobcat in the woods, and that’s the feeling we intend to create on the court with our team’s new identity.”

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 18:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Shit Or Get Off The P-Ott

― jess (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 18:51 (twenty-two years ago)

yancey, let me know if you find the clip of that cartwright commercial online.

― todd burns (toddburns), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 18:53 (twenty-two years ago)

(based on that quote i can't decide if the bobcats are my favorite team ever or least favorite team ever. i think it's both.)(there's no "i" in bobcat)

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 18:53 (twenty-two years ago)

that was the thread with the funny pants. those pants were great.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 18:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Wow, they went with Bobcats. I'm surprised. I was partial to the Charlotte Flight. And which marketing company got paid millions by the NBA to come up with "Bobcats"?!?

― scott m (mcd), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 18:56 (twenty-two years ago)

It's an allusion to owner Robert "Bob" Johnson. As The New Republic put it, thank god his first name wasn't Richard.

― TMFTML (TMFTML), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 18:59 (twenty-two years ago)

I hope it's obvious that Ott is speaking for himself & that the opinions expressed are his only.

Well yeah, Mark. I mean, there are a bunch of Pitchforkers who've run through ILM, yourself included. It would be foolish to assume that you all are one gigantic hivemind, particularly after interacting with you.

At this point in the thread I'm just waiting for Chris and Matos to start making out because then I can point and say "HAH I KNEW IT um ew."

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 19:04 (twenty-two years ago)

oh no hivemind irony oh no

― jess (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 19:06 (twenty-two years ago)

I already had his dick in my mouth on this thread! what the fuck do you want?

― M Matos (M Matos), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 19:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Photos!

― TMFTML (TMFTML), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 19:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Okay, not really.

― TMFTML (TMFTML), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 19:13 (twenty-two years ago)

ew ew ew

― jess (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 19:14 (twenty-two years ago)

Matos you fox!

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 19:14 (twenty-two years ago)

she looks like a goat there

― jess (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 19:15 (twenty-two years ago)

a foxy goat

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 19:17 (twenty-two years ago)

a secret shame

― jess (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 19:17 (twenty-two years ago)

goatfucker

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 19:18 (twenty-two years ago)

Calum to thread!

― scott m (mcd), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 19:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Tom Tolbert had the best line re: the Charlotte expansion team... "At least they didn't call them the Johnsons. Imagine what the mascot would be!"

― Aaron W (Aaron W), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 19:20 (twenty-two years ago)

What, Tom Tolbert?

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 19:23 (twenty-two years ago)

Aaron W OTM

What? The goatfish or about what's good about ILM vs. print media? I sure hope it's the goatfish because I don't think enough people noticed it.

― Aaron W (Aaron W), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 19:24 (twenty-two years ago)

What? The goatfish or about what's good about ILM vs. print media?

Definitely in reference to the goatfish. Nice work.

― scott m (mcd), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 19:27 (twenty-two years ago)

oh no hivemind irony oh no

I take my joy where I can find it.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 19:27 (twenty-two years ago)

M Matos: You're right. Instead of "despite what the haters say", I should have said "despite what any haters might say", but I was too lazy.

There was only this:

of course, the fact that BSS is one of the most boring bands in the whole fucking world has nothing to do with it.

which might be hyperbole but sure ain't "hate".

Yanc3y: I can't believe I still have my notes, but here are a few of the sites where you'll be able to trace some of the convoluted geneaology of BSS. Seems the Treble Charger connection was guitarist Bill Priddle, and on their first album (it's not completely clear, but see third link):

Exclaim
Fake Jazz
Eye
Montreal Mirror

And for any confirmation, Jeffrey Remedios (jeffrey@arts-crafts.ca) is very personable and helpful.

(Although this post seems kind of redundant now after all that hissing and slashing upthread.)

*crosses fingers that HTML will work*

― David A. (Davant), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 20:14 (twenty-two years ago)

Hissing & slashing = every thread ever.

― TMFTML (TMFTML), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 20:28 (twenty-two years ago)

I forgot James started the jailbait thread. First ILM thread I ever saw. This thread is almost as hilarious.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Wednesday, 11 June 2003 23:31 (twenty-two years ago)

I stand corrected on the Treble Charger link, Bill's name is in the bloody middle of the see also section at the bottum.

Now would someone connect the one woman band Peaches to this mess?

― Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Thursday, 12 June 2003 00:27 (twenty-two years ago)

I'd like to think that ILX and Pitchfork agree that Peaches is utterly worthless.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 12 June 2003 00:32 (twenty-two years ago)

Electroclash had its fans here. Im not one of them.

― Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Thursday, 12 June 2003 00:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Woah, I didn't say electroclash (which probably has genuinely erotic, genuinely enjoyable music). I said Peaches.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 12 June 2003 00:41 (twenty-two years ago)

You'd like to think wrong then.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 12 June 2003 00:45 (twenty-two years ago)

does electroclash include the Faint? They're good.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 12 June 2003 00:55 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.kuci.org/~brianm/ile/shockey.gif

― donut bitch (donut), Thursday, 12 June 2003 00:58 (twenty-two years ago)

My little story from an early Peaches thread when I was still using my university address.
NYLPM Response: Peaches - "Fuck the Pain Away"
peaches: anyone else confused...
Tell me about Peaches
Articles Response: Peaches and Gossip live reviews
Peaches: Classic or Dud?
Chicks On Speed: S and D?
Could someone please define "electroclash" and make serious recommendations

Thats enough for now.

― Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Thursday, 12 June 2003 01:01 (twenty-two years ago)

well Chicks On Speed at least had a superkickass B-52's cover, so I can't dismiss the genre outright just cause Peaches is a waste.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 12 June 2003 01:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Didn't mean to implying you were Anthony. Those are just the threads I can find off the top of my head were she gets more then a passing mention. There are a few more general electroclash threads I spared.

The question I still have is how is she related to Broken Social Scene?

― Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Thursday, 12 June 2003 01:10 (twenty-two years ago)

wow my second ever thread!

― jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 12 June 2003 04:08 (twenty-two years ago)

you were such a tike!

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 12 June 2003 04:18 (twenty-two years ago)

"crikey I wish I could get the hang of this ilx thing" -

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 12 June 2003 04:21 (twenty-two years ago)

has anyone else realized that kid hasn't seemed to advance in age for like 6 years now?

― s1utsky (slutsky), Thursday, 12 June 2003 04:30 (twenty-two years ago)

this is what happens when yr god

― jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 12 June 2003 04:32 (twenty-two years ago)

I wasn't talking about you

― s1utsky (slutsky), Thursday, 12 June 2003 04:36 (twenty-two years ago)

lipnicki's just a supporting player now, he's piscopo to lil bow wow's eddie

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 12 June 2003 04:38 (twenty-two years ago)

"Eddie Murphy's success went to Joe Piscopo's head"--quote from some book I read

― s1utsky (slutsky), Thursday, 12 June 2003 04:48 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah it was in the tom shales snl book! I'm pretty sure I glimpsed piscopo storming the court at halftime of the nets-spurs game after kc and the sunshine band played.

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 12 June 2003 04:54 (twenty-two years ago)

that was one entertaining book eh? like the longest magazine article ever

― s1utsky (slutsky), Thursday, 12 June 2003 04:55 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm a sucker for oral histories

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 12 June 2003 05:07 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah, I love love love oral histories. what a great form--I've always wanted to do one.

― s1utsky (slutsky), Thursday, 12 June 2003 05:10 (twenty-two years ago)

I imagine they're just an insane amount of work though

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 12 June 2003 05:15 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, you'd have to run back and forth between the participants with a tape recorder while they all talked simultaneously.

― s1utsky (slutsky), Thursday, 12 June 2003 05:19 (twenty-two years ago)

I'd like to think that ILX and Pitchfork agree that Peaches is utterly worthless.
-- Anthony Miccio (@yahoo.com), June 12th, 2003.

I do ILM and I think Peaches is great.

― mei (mei), Thursday, 12 June 2003 05:56 (twenty-two years ago)

there is no "i" in experimental horse
-- mark s, June 11th, 2003.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

yes there is, right before "mental"
-- jess, June 11th, 2003.

Thanks, guys! I now have a new .sig!

― kate (kate), Thursday, 12 June 2003 07:41 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.nba.com/media/bobcats/bobcat_logo_250w.gif
RAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWRRRRR! GRRRRRRRRR!!!

― Aaron W (Aaron W), Thursday, 12 June 2003 11:49 (twenty-two years ago)

I do ILM and I think Peaches is great.

I don't think she's unilaterally "great," but damnit if she doesn't have her moments. "Lovertits" is super. Really Vanity 6 quality.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Thursday, 12 June 2003 13:14 (twenty-two years ago)

With a logo that awful, the Bobcats deserve Tim Floyd.

― David R. (popshots75`), Thursday, 12 June 2003 15:33 (twenty-two years ago)

the Hornets signed Tim Floyd

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 12 June 2003 16:40 (twenty-two years ago)

TS: Very good black coach VS Awful white coach

(owners prefer the latter)(ray rhodes, art shell, dennis green to thread)

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Thursday, 12 June 2003 16:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Sidney Lowe is still available!

― Aaron W (Aaron W), Thursday, 12 June 2003 20:30 (twenty-two years ago)

also, could someone explain to me why Cito Gaston's name NEVER comes up?

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 12 June 2003 22:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Yay! I found the ads! http://netscape.nba.com/news/amex_030331.html

― Aaron W (Aaron W), Monday, 16 June 2003 01:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Like I said, with a logo that heinous, the Bobcats deserve M.L. Carr.

― David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 16 June 2003 05:17 (twenty-two years ago)

And when the hell is Chris Chamblis going to get his chance to lose @ the major league level?

Re: Yancey's TS - see also Jeff Torborg, Phil Garner, Jack McKeon, any & all Ranger managers outside of Johnny Oates.

Re: Cito Gaston - you give Ted Turner the early-to-mid 90s Blue Jays, and he'll win 90 games every single year. (BTW, should I be so nostalgic about the McGriff / Fernandez // Alomar / Carter Padres / Jays trade to think it's the best trade of the modern era in terms of "ooooh, cool" factor?)

― David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 16 June 2003 05:23 (twenty-two years ago)

You're a bunch of basketball-worshipping music-critic pretenders!

:-)

― mei (mei), Monday, 16 June 2003 05:54 (twenty-two years ago)

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