P&J 2003: Tokenism-a-go-go (WARNING: Outkast content)

The single is more rock than hip-hop, and Kenna's only connection to hip-hop is Chad Hugo's production.

I'm as whitebread as they come, I s'pose.

That was the token cool tokenist.

You really should be proud of yourself, nate.

YOU'RE NOT MY FATHER! *slams door*

I'm not dumping on Nate Sonny - I think i) it is interesting, ii) tokenism is a perfectly defensible position anyway (as O Nate hints).

Lists by committee are never a true representation of what was good in any certain year. Everyone's guilty of stuffing the ballot box with certain albums they want to see ranked, regardless of how much they actually *like* those albums.

Yeah, because they all finished in #1 albums and singles and were constantly reviewed using the terms "unlike their less-creative mainstream counterparts"

*I realize this might be a slight overdramatization.

context is everything.

For example, they tried, maybe once or twice back in the eighties, to sift out results according the voter's declared race (and I think sex, too, not sure) and there were pretty notable differences between the resultant lists, in spite of the fact that some people strenuously objected to the idea and refused to participate, and not without reason.

Doesn't the term "tokenism" get used in reference to colorblind genre affiliation on ILM on a constant basis?

I think an aggregate poll or just numbers would have been classier than a list of names but this way is more honest and we do get to unpick what the cliched Outkast-only straw man is actually LIKE (as you are doing in your posts!)

(x-post)

It does, and that doesn't make it right in that context either. Nor does it make it right that you're calling people out by name.

http://microsites.nme.com/thisweek/

So wait...I'm being a jerk for making a "perfunctory effort or symbolic gesture towards" post-grunge?

holy shit, Jody just made clear why I like "Hey Ya" so much!

TED: Welcome, wilkomen, bienvenue. It's a great honour and privilage for me to present this celebration of the wide diversity of cultures that exists today on Craggy Island, namely Chinese people and people from Craggy Island. I have prepared a short slide show presentation which reflects this multicultural mix. So without furtherado lets start the show.

SLIDE ONE - TED WITH HIS ARM AROUND A BLACK MAN
TED: This man visited the island a few years ago. I forget his name now but I got on very well with him so I just thought I'd throw that in at the start.

MAN IN AUDIENCE: Will there be any free drink at this?

TED: Yes. There will be a limited supply of free drink afterwards

SLIDE TWO
TED: The Great wall of China; a miracle of Chinese engineering, so big you can see it from anywhere in the world.

SLIDE THREE
TED: Chairman Mao. Secretary of the Communist Party of China. One of the biggest communist parties in the world and in my view the best!

SLIDE FOUR
TED: Mr. Miaggi from the Karate Kid, one of my favourite films. NOT because of the karate kid himself but because of Mr. Miaggi. Not a day goes by when I don't remember one of his many words of wisdom.

SLIDE FIVE
TED: Kato. Where would he spring from next?

SLIDE SIX
TED: The Mauri. I'm sorry, I don't know how that got in there. Ahem, of course there are no Mauris on Craggy Island.

MAN WEARING MAURI FACEPAINTS IN AUDIENCE LOOKS UP

SLIDE SEVEN
TED: Ming the Merciless.

SLIDE EIGHT - FOUR CHINESE PEOPLE
TED: But best of all the Chinese people themselves. Look at them there, aren't they great.

SLIDE NINE - A CROWD OF PEOPLE
TED: The Chinese; a great bunch of lads.

TED ENDS OFF THE SLIDE SHOW, WHILE THE SLIDE MACHINE PROJECTS A PICTURE OF FATHER TED FOLLOWED BY THE WORDS, "NOT A RACIST", REPEATEDLY.

Strangely enough, I didn't write that with anyone in mind...

Dan, that's why I omitted the ballots that voted for "Crazy In Love" -- because it was a hip-hop record.

Watch as everyone does the "what constitutes a rap record" flipout and I ponder suicide.

FLIP OUT! FLIP FLIP FLIP OUT! FLIP OUT! FLIPOUT LIKE AN ILX THREAD!

xp Gear: lookit Nathan Rabin's

can you do Phillipino voters who voted for Black Dice?

Do you seriously not see that the trigger word "honkey" kind of completely outstrips the trigger word "token" in your ill-conceived example?

-some of these critics don't really have any real stance on what "real" hip-hop is or what constitutes "black" music or "white" music or "underground" or "mainstream" and don't. really. care. They like one hip-hop record and maybe a few R&B or indie rock or dance records and they don't worry about it and don't give anyone else who knows them or their writing any reason to worry.

-some of these critics don't like mainstream hip-hop at all (oh no sexism and materialism!), yet somehow also don't like underground hip-hop (oh no bleakness and obtuse lyrix/flows!) and found that Outkast was the only group that managed to hit all their pre-Wu Native Tongues-vibe buttons

-some of these critics don't like rap in the least but do like Prince and Funkadelic and voted for Outkast because the album "transcends rap" or whatever

-some of these critics are corny indie fuxxx

-I have no real idea which critic is what, save DeRogatis (he's that last one)

-I might've expressed some consternation earlier over the type of crit who would vote for Outkast and like nine indie rock albums (and no singles), but it's fascinating and weird how disparate some of these ballots actually are, and throws the whole 'tokenism' idea into a different strata altogether

-how serious could I be if I appended '-a-go-go' to the fucking header?

-I'd do other potential token-pick albums if they uh y'know swept every year-end poll there was

-quit whinin'

The NME's poll was won by "Crazy In Love". Because Pop is Cool.

I have nein idea.

Dan - okay take out honky then, I'd still be kinda pissed off if somebody called me "the token anything."

haha but you let "you fucking asshole" slide!!

My friend went to college with the kid from that commercial. Apparently, he did smoke a lot of weed.

(ie, maybe part of the "importance" of "Hey Ya" is that it made people vote for it who might never have otherwise cared about hip-hop)

"Fucking Leonard Bernstein! Where was he in '64 - or '66 come to that? All that will happen after is loads of shit 'concept rock' trying to appeal to the establishment! Fuck Sgt Peppers!"

- they would have had a fairly large point. Nik Cohn did say pretty much that, come to think of it.

Yes, my mom likes that Outkast song, and no, she knows no other hip hop out there. But massive, immediate concensus takes a long time to erode. Even if it does spawn a bunch of Outkast soundalike releases (how could it not?), do you really think people are going to be saying nasty things about Hey Ya in 20 years? I don't.

dleone: *rockist statement*
jblount: But dude, that's so rockist!
me: Um, was there a point to that?

Being critical darlings of a few is all well, but you can't eat out for long on it.

i mean i got enough civic pride to be happy happy for outkast even if i still think the album's a mess (i'm very very curious what the next single is). the possibility exists now that the grammy's are going to be more otm than the p&j in the future though. whoda thunk that?

daddino otm, although the fat that these critics aren't exactly 'moving on' to the 'next thing' but just retreating to rock (which held the belt for fifty years prior) isn't a good sign, i still think.

(xpost great googly moogly I'm typing slowly)

i read this as criticalo darlington

Are there 10 new, original 2003 records worth listing, though?

Define "original".

I thought so, but then as Dan points out, I'm a rockist.

Cheers, Blount;> (sniffle) You know you're a true part of the mob when other members cheerfully try to kill you with kittens.

My point, exactly. How about "10 albums that don't lift lyrics/guitar riffs/song samples from anyone else"? (I DID think this question out, which is scary)

Beyonce - "Crazy In Love"
Outkast - "Hey Ya"
Outkast - "The Way You Move"
Evanesence - "My Immortal"
Joe Budden - um, whatever his big single where he jumps out of the TV in the video was
Sean Paul - "Get Busy"
Justin T. - "Senorita"
Kelis - "Milkshake"
Xtina - "Beautiful"
"Get Low"

Frankly, I couldn't possibly care less if a song samples/quotes another song as long as I like the end result; in today's soundscape, it's akin to saying that every impressionist painter who came after [insert first impressionist painter here] is an unoriginal no-talent hack.

I don't think these critics "should" do anything; I was mostly just curious as to where Outkast fit into their listening patterns and whatnot, and what that means not so much for the critics but for Outkast themselves. I don't think some dude that voted for the Postal Service and Jet and Kings of Leon and six other garage/indie/rock bands and Outkast has some required impetus to dive headfirst into the David Banner ouevre, I just wanna know how Outkast fits into the scheme of things in that writer's context.

(xpost Nate, I was originally going to write "YOU LIE LIKE DOG" but decided I'd rather leave work)

Hurrah intertwined Daned hivemind personality switch!

I'd have thought that goes without saying, Daddino. Else, why buy more from the genre?

To answer Tico's side question: Great Adventures of Slick Rick.

Someone with more time than I and a seething desire to fuck things up argumentally should do the same thing for the 2000 ballots re: Stankonia

dude seriously reads uncut cover to cover every month

xpost yeah that kind of thing Mike!

is hstencil still around? because if he is, bringing up colin ferguson could be a no-no

Funny that now, way after the fact, you say Fred's ballot is "great" one. You could've done that earlier, y'know.

where "acknowledgement of insufficient depth of knowledge or taste" is of course not at all pejorative. Mmmkay.

Love,
one of your sex offenders who isn't interested in justifying his selections

Xgau in '76:

Two artists dominated the poll this year, and two others deserve special mention. Songs in the Key of Life is flawed and excessive, hence controversial among critics, but the consensus is that Stevie Wonder has overwhelmed his own capacity for foolishness. His vote this year transcends tokenism; as Tom Smucker commented: "I never liked any of his other albums. I voted for this because it reminded me of Pet Sounds."

Yay pleasure principle!

On the other hand...who's more annoying: People who are sure OutKast is the only hip-hop worth a shit, or people who get all outraged about a good, fun, funny, inventive album by a great band being voted record of the year because *gasp* even people who are confused by Lil Jon actually like it?

sorry x-post

sorry Ned! and Pete too I guess!

I didn't write the Stevie quote, I just googled it!

Well, there's "Superwoman," for starters.

Choosing Stevie/OutKast because you want a soul/hip-hop record to balance out your list = tokenism

Choosing Stevie/OutKast because they remind you of a rock record you like =/ tokenism

If you can find the Xgau piece that starts "Stevie Wonder is a fool" it's worth your time.

the former are more annoying.

But whats so well rounded about liking one hip-hop album? I'd like to know what some voter's used as criteria for voting. I mean, how many of these critics mentioned listened through both Outkast discs more than once or twice?

I think the original point was a good one and Outkast was far from the best hip-hop album I heard.

c) aggregated lists are candy compared to actually listening to some of these albums, b) oh, yeah, liking either Stevie Wonder or OutKast is tantamount to "existing in a cultural vacuum" as someone put it on another thread, and a) I so want to be a member of this club!

Just thought I'd re-post that, in case anyone decides to actually think about what conclusion to draw.

hstencil, your point about "tokenism" being racially loaded is correct; and also, quite obviously, "tokenism" is derogatory even when not in a racially loaded context. It doesn't follow that by posting the list Nate is calling out anyone as racist. Throughout the thread he seems to be fairly genial in the face of your provocation and is actually leaving the question open in his mind as to whether tokenism is the appropriate conclusion to draw. You, meanwhile, are taking offense way beyond any that was actually given, and you're using that as your excuse to hit back hard, interminably. In other words, you come across as someone looking for a fight. And in the meantime you're not, in fact, discussing what I see as the more interesting issue: What is going on with so many people voting for OutKast as their only hip-hop vote? And I'd pose a further question: What is going on when whole swaths of the "field" (pop, semipop) - e.g., country, adult contemporary - rarely if ever place on such polls as this, or when a swath - e.g., hip-hop - seems to place far below its desserts?

(Also, the time spent responding to hstencil could have been better spent answering these two questions. I hope that what I've just written disposes of the argument [fat chance - ed.], and that we can go on to other things, whether or not hstencil chooses to.)

By the way, I vote for music that speaks to me; I don't try to represent the year in music. Also, I have nothing in principle against the idea that one genre might be far better than another (e.g., I don't think that rock as such is very good anymore, though I like a lot of country that sounds rock, and a lot of hip-hop that does too, for that matter); but I don't necessarily believe that a genre that doesn't speak to me isn't a good genre; nor do I believe that I might not learn to hear it. But I don't feel obligated to, either. But the question that people like Christgau quite rightly raise is: What's going on when a profession or a social group as a whole fails to hear a type of music? (And Joshua Clover raises it in relation to country, and Sterling Clover raised it here, last year, in relation to Gotti.)

I haven't yet followed the ballot links that Nate generously provided, but I doubt that tokenism plays a role in a particular decision to vote for OutKast. Where tokenism, or just plain blindness, might actually appear is in a newspaper's or magazine's decision to "cover hip-hop, because we provide information to people," but then only hiring people with a liking for the sort of hip-hop that crosses over to white nonwiggers. (But what if these people are right? I mean, they're not right - crunk is better than OutKast - but I don't assume that they couldn't be right, sometime, about something.)

Well, it's just a lot less intimidating to a Rock audience than most other Hip-Hop albums released last year, isn't it? I mean, "The Love Below" is just a classic 70's Soul album, basically, and "Speakerboxxx" has enough horns and singing fer ppl who only like old Soul to get some kicks from it. And liking old Soul is much more commonplace in rockcrit land than being into contemporary mainstream Hip-Hop. The image helps too, of course, because rock fans are more likely to give Hip-Hop artists a try if they're so vocal about liking stuff they like (André bigging up old Punk and going all British Invasion in the video, Big Boi's love of Kate Bush.)

What separates this from "The Miseducation Of Lauryn Hill" tho, is that "Speakerboxxx" (if not "The Love Below") does still operate in the Hip-Hop universe. Critics who voted for Lauryn could just go "yeah, she's great, but really she's more Soul than Hip-Hop and current Hip-Hop is crap yadda yadda yadda"; but voting for "Speakerboxxx" means that you're willing to give props to something with JAY-Z and LUDACRIS in it. So I do think that S/TLB might prove an entrance point to Hip-Hop for a lot of ppl, or at least it'll make them confront themselves with the genre more. Also haha I just remembered - it has LI´L JOHN on it, too! And really, the jump from "Last Call" to "Get Low" isn't that far.

I guess it boils down to how many ppl actually enjoyed "Speakerboxxx" and how many were really just voting for "The Love Below".

What is going on when whole swaths of the "field" (pop, semipop) - e.g., country, adult contemporary - rarely if ever place on such polls as this, or when a swath - e.g., hip-hop - seems to place far below its desserts?

This one I find harder to answer cuz it's been like that ever since I've started reading the music press. I can't ever imagine it being anything unlike this, but that's what the interweb is for.

Please tell me he actually said 'used to,' implying that therefore now they don't.

thank god norah, amy, beyonce and hilary are holding it down for REAL women everywhere!

xpost

The point is not that they are more "REAL" but that they are women artists that are less likely to appeal to male rock fans.

Hey, who are you calling PC?

hrm -- 'you can't talk about it if you haven't been there empiricist mentalism' ahoy!

That's how I reacted to yr ballot, so we're even!

I'm white. I like crunk.

Would y'all's be spazzing out right now if I chose my words better? Everyone's hung up on "tokenism" and sort of ignoring any of the wider points I'm trying to stir up here (which Gear! finally made when he mentioned the general pop-culture ubiquity of Outkast -- though that still doesn't explain a lack of 50, or a surplus of the Shins).

is this like the ILM equivalent of the sex offenders register or something?

-- the surface noise (electricsoun...), February 10th, 2004.

I wouldn't be that harsh. I can't think of another way of putting it, though.

-- nate detritus (n***p*****550...), February 10th, 2004.

Whoops. You know, that didn't even occur to me at all.

Depends on whether you continued to ascribe motives to people without any fucking clue as to whether they're there or not.

Maura earlier and o. nate way back when on point re: sexism. Anybody thought of starting a new thread?

Did something hit too close to home?

Also there's something rather ironic about this post.

Jesus, OutKast was so obviously the "Album of the Year" that even I fucking thought that the first time I heard it: "Oh yes, that's quite nice, obviously the Album of the Year." And as Albums of the Year go, it's way fucking better than fucking Wilco. "Ooo, it's not Basement Jaxx" (whose album was weaker than "Rooty," whether you want to admit it or not), "Ooo, it's not Dizzee Rascal" (except if it was you'd be fucking bitching about how Dizzee fucked over Wiley and only Dave Matthews fans still listen to Dizzee, never mind that his album has only been officially available in the U.S. for three fucking weeks), "Ooo it's not Michael Mayer" (except if it was you'd be noting how Michael Mayer is really just Moby the Hun)...

OutKast is a great American band. God fucking forbid that people who get paid to write about music could just fucking appreciate having a great American band around. It's not like they make a fucking new one every day.

Jesus.

ONE OF THE VOTERS IS CALLED FRANK BRUNO! DON'T YOU SEE THE HUMOUR?

"Nate (and Keith since I found yr ILX post through his link):

1) I think the criticism of your naming names is totally misplaced. The individual top 10s are right there for everyone to see. It's the implicit point that bothers me."

That it's kind of strange and worth looking into that Outkast and apparently appealed to so many people who almost primarily liked non-hip-hop music? What's implied, that "Outkast is hip-hop for indie rock nerds" (which is what I sort of thought going in), or that "Outkast's album, sloppy as it is, does reach out admirably to a wide range of listeners with varied interests" (which is what I thought after poring over all the ballots; yes there were plenty of ballots that were 50%+ hip-hop and included Outkast).

"2) Speaking of hipster policing (per your blog): Am I somehow not allowed to love a hip-hop record, even the one that 'people like me' somewhat predictably love, because it's not my specialty? Is that your point? Fuck that point. Where's the list of people who voted for no hip-hop? That would be more honest, I gather. (See my shitty ex-editor Bill Holdship, for instance.)"

Jeff Chang put it best (even if disavowed the post as 'stupid' later) (and yes by "put it best" I just mean this one segment here): "In a good mood, those of us on this side of the line--the hip-hop gen side--get to marvel at how they did it; that Outkast can get underdog love and remain non-corny is our victory, too. In a bad mood, we go, why the fuck do we need them to validate us?" I've felt both ways about it and to be honest I the only thing that nags at me currently is the feeling that some of these Outkast-only people -- not all of them, but some -- consider the rest of hip-hop to be some sort of wasteland of bling and violence. Which I used to think a couple years ago; there could be the embarrassment of self-recognition working here.

"3) I don't vote for singles because it would be morally wrong of me to do so; I don't listen that way, I don't review them, and I don't see why I should skew meaningful results with my bullshit."

So no radio, no MTV, no MP3s? OK, but you don't know what you're missing. (They played Stereolab once on Viva La Bam!)

"4) I don't know which way you were using 'tokenism' -- but I would think that part of the reason one would care about tokenism re hip-hop would be for racial reasons. If so, I direct you to #3, a '70s funk reissue that only one other person voted for. Bi-racial band as it happens; best song is a black power anthem sung by a white vibraphonist from Nebraska. Spring-Heel Jack disc (two other votes, I think) is also bi: William Parker and Matthew Shipp. I don't know what color Patti Wicks' (no other votes) bassist and drummer are -- let me listen harder."

Well hey that's great. Congratulations on letting hstencil distract you and absolving yourself of the racism I didn't accuse anyone of. It's not an issue of "only black artist". It's "only hip-hop artist". This is more an issue of genre and populism and rockism than anything.

"5) 3rd favorite song (after "Spread"/"Hey Ya" tie) is either "Roses," "She's Alive" or "Rooster" (oh-ho, Big Boi track, thought you'd catch him, but no, he's slippery). Can't go deeper with authority this sec 'cos I loaned my copy to another white person (who actually knows a lot more about hip-hop than I do, but is really cheap; unfortunately for criticism, he's an art history professor). "

Third-favorite Outkast song, or third-favorite song, period? Either way, I'm not going "ew" or anything. "The Rooster" is fucking fantastic.

"6) I really only like "Hey Ya" because of the extra 2/4 measure -- I thought for a while it would make a good mashup with The Go-Betweens' "Cattle & Cane," but the tempos are too different and I don't have the software."

I really only like "Hey Ya" because it's catchy and has a great chorus (or five) and as mentioned elsewhere sounds like Shuggie Otis collaborating with the Buzzcocks.

"All of this said, with appropriate bile and sarcasm, I think that Xgau's essay comment that most voters who attend to indie-rock do not do the same for undie-rap (his term, I don't like it) is astute and well-taken, and I don't know what to do about it other than work harder. But I couldn't get through the Anticon sampler I tried to listen to yesterday."

I don't like that term either, FWIW. Shit, nobody voted for Bazooka Tooth; what a ripoff. Would've made my top 20.

"I'm not involved with ILX; if either of you want to post this there, that's fine, but only in full. If the thread's dead, that's ok too."

Is "in full chopped up with retorts" OK?

"p.s. -- I think Sleater-Kinney actually have a wah-wah, and Meg White isn't rudimentary, she's in-the-wrong-band crappy."

Yawn

"I'm 35, and sonic purity hasn't been in it since at least Cupid & Psyche '85. Racial, never."

I'm 26, and maybe I'll be too old for crunk in ten years. Maybe I won't. I probably won't go around calling people anti-semitic for being into the Beastie Boys as much as they are into Yo La Tengo.

Frank Bruno is a member of the M0unt@in G0@ts.

Does that include Xgau himself?

Of course it was. The only album I actually said Spbxxx/Love was better than was Wilco's. I just find the implicit derogation of OutKast here and elsewhere in music-geek circles kinda cloying, because it seems to have more to do with the kind and number of people who like (or profess to like) them than with OutKast themselves. (New word: DeRogatisize -- "To put something down because Jim DeRogatis likes it")

I like most of Nate's response to the guy up above, but it seems a little disingenuous to start this thread and then say it was only by way of appreciating OutKast's "admirably wide range of listeners."

x-post: The roots of OutKast's crossover success certainly bear inquiry and discussion. I'm just not sure that's exactly what this thread was set up to do...

Don't you actually mean the Extra Glenns?

Love,
jack

to sterling -- back in the 90's there was a huge glut of 7 inches which took the wind out of the sails made distributors much more conservative in how much and what they carried, curtailing it significantly.

Your love of Kish Kash is well documented and well articulated and was part of what prompted me to buy it the day it came out. And I like it plenty. It just didn't blow me away the way Rooty did. No accounting for taste, I suppose. (On the other hand, not like anyone cares, I do love Fabric13, also purchased because of extensive ILM hyping -- thanx, ILM!)

(nb my fav single in my collection is a signed Tiffany "I Think We're Alone Now")

(one of my favorite singles, Love Child Plays Moondog)

FWIW, I think I got left off the above list, since I ranked S/TLB on my albums list, but no other hip hop albums. (I still call Dizzee grime/garage, not hip hop per se.) And I have no hip hop singles on my singles list (again, exclusing Dizzee & Sharkie Major). And I vacillated, I did, over whether even to list OutKast in my albums chart, but in the end the sheer sweeping scope of the album caught me up and I couldn't *not* put it in. Plus, I listened to it, like incessantly. Then again, so did I with Fitty Cent, but by the end of the year it just didn't feel like such a special album to me. And, yeah, I didn't listen to much hip hop this year; I'm listening to less hip hop right now than almost ever in my life right now. Nothing wrong with exploring why that is and why OutKast becomes my exception. (I don't think of it as a "token" listing for me, or actually I do, but it's my token pop listing, not hip hop.)

Maybe I'm just being overly optimistic and giving people the benefit of the doubt, but it's a more sensible position than villifying the people who voted for Outkast and no other hip hop records.

the constant denial of race as an element of this reads to me like the constant conservative insistence that they're just out to preserve marriage, and none of it really has nothing at all to do with homosexuality, and in fact all of your gay friends and children are probably very nice indeed.

In a thread crammed with dumb, this is the dipshittiest thing I've read so far. Gimme a "sewing yellow stars onto peoples' jackets" reference so we can be done with it already. (Christ, and people talk about me prejudging critics...)

(Oh, by the way -- I hereby plug the Joe Henry rec I had at #2 that got almost no votes, even from the hated old people you'd expect to like it. Great songs, at least by my weird standards, crazy mixing ideas -- though in an analog-era way -- and Don Byron is all over it, and not like 'wheel out the jazz player when he can't screw anything up.' End plug.)

I can't figure out why Jeff even tortures himself about validation by P&J, and to the extent that this plays in here, I feel the same way. Why would someone expect the bulk of the self-appointed not to be sheep, whether concerning hiphop or anything else? Xgau's as much as said that the list would look very different if limited to people he judges are at least doing their job.

Random clarifications since the points came up. It's Franklin, not Frank. Frank's my dad -- it's a weird coincidence that he shares a name with the boxer. (Once Teenage Fanclub sd Frank Bruno was one of their heroes in NME, and a ton of people were really impressed with me that week.) Also -- Extra Glenns is me and John Darnielle; it's a collaboration where I arrange his songs. Me guesting on a Mountain Goats record is just that -- he has veto power on what I do there. Yes, I know only 4 of you care, 2 of whom I already know.

As long as I can keep out of any club DeRogatis is in, I don't have to shoot myself

Wise, wise words. At least you didn't mention R****t H*****n.

*obviously I am using "hated old people" jocularly, as you had; nevertheless the non-singles-voting bloc in aggregate votes/d a LOT differently than the majority of the electorate.

On the flip side, maybe the people who had zero albums would have had a solid hip-hop 11-20.

robert heinlein?

2nd clarification on singles: Yes, I listen to radio and mp3s, but not in a systematic enough way to feel like I should put in my 2 cents. I try to make my ballot reflect actually listening patterns, rather than meer esteem or 'shoulds.' You really want a list that's half Oranges Band and Lucksmith album tracks? No, you don't. The conventional interpretation of not voting for singles = hates pop. Not here, just not where I'm focused.

Slate; meta-meta-meta...I'm scared.

But Ira Kaplan is Jewish, too!

I knew from the moment it was announced that Sp/TLB would top the P&J b/c that's how it works. And, yep, a score of critics will pander to what they think their colleagues endorse b/c nobody 'cept Cameron Crowe wants to be uncool. Whatever Boi & Dre's aesthetic intentions ultimately were, there's always a kernel of knowing what will appeal to "whitefolks". Face facts: black America and 3/4ths of a Dark Continent audience could not keep OutKast rolling in ducats. Their success is reliant on exogamous approval and dollars. That's how one makes it in America. As far as I see it, Andre' came kinda late to the P-Funk/Shuggie/Arthurly/Jimi party but the critical clamor for "Stankonia" sho'nuff made him wise to which way the wind blows. "Hey Ya" was certain to appeal to the Beatlemania uber alles of this country's largest demo: Boomers...THAT's why yo' mama and yo' grandmama too know 'em. All those who keep asking why no more singles are forthcoming: there ARE NO MORE to be spun off...

...b/c the record is excessive, a mess & TLB particularly too solipsistic to appeal to the same teenyboppers & soccer momz who want to "shake it like a polaroid pitcha". On record: I liked their early, ATL-bound work, disliked Aquemini, LOVE Stankonia (but then I am one of the Funkadelic heads of old & inordinately fond of loud gtrs and, erm, "B.O.B" is far more "incendiary" than "Hey Ya"), loathe Sp/TLB. Did not read the Xgau stuff but I heard Songs In The Key of Life in real time and A) it's genius, B) it bares no resemblance whatsoever to "Pet Sounds". Why does Wonderlove need the imprimatur of Wilsoniana to get over, pray tell?!?

SITKOL is also far less uneven and scattershot than Sp/TLB

Was it just me or did 3000 seem very nonplussed at the grammys? Not only his one-note acceptance speech but his general demeanor throughout the telecast suggested he was very disenchanted with both his art and his place as a cog in the machine. The only time he seemed remotely animated/sincere was in thanking L.A. I mean, why should I care --- tack on months of copious speculation about OutKast splitting, Dre's professed desire to get out of the game and move to BK and attend music school and cloister himself further etc etc --- if HE does not?

Andre' bedazzling the Masses is no big surprise either. America (& the West at large) has always loved their Negroes freaky-deke, from Estevanico The Black to (the real) Doctor John to Little Richard to Dre'. And it's the Boomer imperative, post-Jimi, to at least be seen paying lip service to Andre's brand of genius. Because even though they now qualify for AARP, these same Boomers could not countenance the loss of Cool.

The American Public's taste for minstrelsy has not abated in the wake of the Civil Rights Act...probably just increased. I generally like OutKast and respect their mission to rise above the okey-doke....but they best watch their step from now on.

Of course, I HATE hip-hop...and the albums in bin that I liked in '03 were L'il Jon & EB, Nappy Roots & Bubba Sparxxx.

Why does Wonderlove need the imprimatur of Wilsoniana to get over, pray tell?!?

This is a very good point! One of many.

outkast are an obvious choice for older white critics cuz they are reminded of that crazy negro music they listened to in college.

Even assuming that analysis is correct, it amounts to the following amazing revelation: 'They' voted for it because they responded to it and enjoyed it? You may think the boomer assumptions that make their pleasure possible are fucked, but that doesn't make it a nutty -- or for that matter racist -- starting point for critical response.

Hey 'old' people (who are probably going to live for another 40 years), roll over and die (unless you're really cool). In fact, roll over and die unless you're really cool, period.

Right on about Wonder/Wilson, though.

yeah, that was me. i made it twice. hey, it's a long thread.

Hold on, what IS the median age of those who voted?

20% - 40 yr old glossy/large alt-weakly editors who like it cuz it reminds them of prince

20% - 30 yr old small alt-weakly editors/established freelancers who like it cuz it reminds them of beck

20% - 20 yr old bloggers who are very thankful for the material

20% - voted for dizzee rascal (ages vary)(writing styles don't)

A lot of truth there Philip, but the corny indie fuxx vote for corny indie hip-hop (this year, non-prophets, victor vaughn/king geedorah, stuff on Lex or Def Jux, etc.) not Outkast and nine rock rock records. I'd guess instead that for the most part those on Nate's list are older critics who are coming round to h-h via Outakst (for all the reasons already stated here) rather than younger ppl rejecting all h-h except Outkast. Looking at the PFM votes for example, only *one* staffer pegged the Outkast as the best h-h record of the year (and even he had another h-h record in his top 10) and the person who placed Outkast highest on his/her individual ballot was the site's "h-h reviewer" not a corny indie kid. It's a small survey to be sure, but on this evidence the mostly 20-something corny indie fuxx more often voted for multiple h-h LPs and singles and didn't plump for Outkast above all others.

I'd say most people who consider themselves hip hop fans like BOTh mainstream AND undergounrd.

* favorite guitar band is prolly the clientele, but I'm not sure they "rock"

I'd make a joke about Big Daddy Kane but only Dom and I would understand it

How many of these Friendster profiles are simply people for whom shit like Run-DMC and Sir Mix-a-Lot was part of their diet of uncritical listening to Top 40/MTV in elementary school/junior high, and "old school hip-hop" is thus something they love for nostalgia's sake? There are lots of mid-twentysomethings like myself who stopped listening to the radio right around the time that gangsta went pop (The Chronic?) -- and so even if they espouse negative attitudes toward contemporary commercial hip-hop (as a result of getting into indie rock), they can still say that the stuff they listened to as a kid was pretty cool.

BTW, the rest of you may be interested to know: w/o having seen this thread or prompting from me or even giving a damn about such discussions, a relative just told me they thought the Grammys was "coons a-go go", largely because of OutKast's assorted appearances...minstrelsy which did not impress them. They've seen it all before and think OutKast's "quirky brilliance" is exagerrated.

So perhaps them (white) token voters above are to be "thanked" for giving the duo a better name than their own?

i still preferred "Play No Games" by L'il Jon to anything I heard on Sp/TLB

Not to mention all the people thanked in the liner notes, sheesh!

I could see this being true of Jurassic 5 or say the Roots, but El-P, Can Ox, MF Doom, Non-Prophets? I don't see that at all. I mean, I love the mainstream too, but I don't see how you give that laundry list regarding indie hip hop and not have it apply to the exact same degree in indie rock.

I can see your criticism of maybe Aesop Rock, because frankly he's sorta unlistenable. But the Non-Prophets specifically call out a lot of the garbage with indie hip-hop that turns people off from them. I can't stand 75% of the indie stuff I hear, and I love the mainstream... but the NPs found a really viable form of indie that stands on its own two legs without sounding elitist or wishy-washy.

I can't see any logical reason to leave "Damage" or "The Cure" off of a 2003 GO! CD (besides personal preference, of course). You could drop that awful "Sly Beyonce" song and slot it right in there, ha!

Well, to each their own.

(Also, related to nothing, but the Non-Prophets are corny and Fannypack are ok?!)

Slumberlord, I snuck in "That Ain't Right" as a last-minute addition to my '03 CDR-go thing. I also took out the Postal Service; I mean urgh, that dude's voice

This is a moronic comment. You and Ned should reread the Xgau quote.

Well, I'm feeling unusually hostile tonight (or maybe finally displaying the hostility I repress) but lines like "the critical clamor for 'Stankonia' sho'nuff made him wise to which way the wind blows" come from the pukebrain. Simpleminded snottyass shallowness. I do assume you have a mind, if you ever grow up and use it.

(1) "Frank Kogan wrote, 'I like the first Kool Moe Dee album because it reminds me of "96 Tears."'"

(2) "Why does Kool Moe Dee love need the imprimatur of garage rock to get over, pray tell?!?"

(3) "oh please. one really obscure quote from one person /= 'the imprimatur of garage rock to get over.' I mean, really--has anyone else in the history of humanity ever fucking mentioned '96 Tears' in accordance with Kool Moe Dee?"

(4) "although my above post was deliberately misinterpreted, i NEVER said the whole wide world unfavorably compared Kool Moe Dee to '96 Tears'..."

And the next response in this hypothetical conversation would be, "And no one claimed that you HAD said that the whole wide world unfavorably compared Kool Moe Dee to '96 Tears.' And people on these threads never deliberately misinterpret each other, except for comic effect."

So, let's take this slowly, all the way through: In 1987 [in our alternate universe], Christgau says that the Pazz & Jop triumph of Kool Moe Dee transcends tokenism, and he cites as an example Frank Kogan's liking it for reminding him of "96 Tears." Now, Christgau is so used to writing in short form that even when he goes long he still doesn't spell out his ideas, which frustrates me massively because often I have to guess and also because this is how he sometimes gets away without thinking those ideas through. But nonetheless, I understand that Christgau's point here is that the votes for Kool Moe Dee didn't tend to come from a felt need to include a black person on one's ballot, and weren't necessarily for the blackness of his content. And (I say with slightly less certainty) that Christgau cites my "96 Tears" comparison as an example of a voter choosing Kool Moe Dee for personal aesthetic associations that don't particularly signify as "blackness." (Actually I didn't vote for Kool Moe Dee, but when I reviewed him I explicitly identified him with the hateful creep music of my early adolescence, e.g. "Under My Thumb," "96 Tears." "I transport myself into rage a lot. I don't know if it's stimulation or catharsis or fun or just time taken from my life. Anyway, rage is a home I go to and rage is a kind of music. And rage is accompanied by music. When I was a teenager I'd put the Rolling Stones on the record machine and pace or run around and dream of destroying my enemies. Still do it...") "Imprimatur" is not a relevant concept, that I can see. Kool Moe Dee doesn't come bearing Question Mark's approval or sanction, and even if he had, it's not the approval that gets him over with me. Now, you could say that by citing my comparison, Xgau is using it to push Kool Moe Dee over with his readers (a comparison to Question Mark somehow registering as a seal of approval), except that that has nothing to do with his point, which was about nontokenism and - probably - about Kool Moe Dee's reach. In any event, sentence (3) above makes sense to me not as a refutation of a nonexistent claim that the whole wide world unfavorably (?) compares Kool Moe Dee to garage rock, but as questioning how one can leap from a single person's very idiosyncratic comparison (that seems to have been cited for its very idiosyncrasy) to a general conclusion about people's need for imprimatur. (And back to real-life, Kandia isn't addressing Smucker's sentence for its idiosyncrasy but because it's exemplary of a need for imprimatur. Otherwise, why bring it up in the way she did? But anyway, no one's deliberately misinterpreting her, and by imagining that they are, she nicely avoids explaining what in the hell point she was trying to make in her imprimatur comment.)

But what set me off, Kandia, wasn't your misreading of other people - that's a common and human failing, and I may well be misreading you - but that the ideas you were reading into them ("them" incl. OutKast) were the ideas that made them vulnerable to your sneer.

And you all can fire "glass house" comments back at me, now that I've made myself an easy target.

I hope you didn't think for even six seconds that what you wrote in any way deserved to be called pukebrain, jerking off, or any of the other nasty things I said. Just think of me as some psycho on the street who started beating on you for reasons having to do with the voices in his head, not with you.

(And I'd get in touch with Kandia to say this, rather than just posting it here, except that I'm hoping that she didn't see the end of this thread; and if she hasn't, I don't want her to see it and therefore be subjected to it. If any of you are friends with her and know that she has, tell me.)

The only hip-hop albums I heard last year that would or might make, say, my top 20 are S/TLB, the Lyrics Born album, and the Dizzee Rascal album. "Hip-hop's corny now," sez Jay-Z, and I concur. Contemporary rap, like contemporary country music, is not an artistically robust genre, and won't be until a significant, smart and/or innovative, marginal, marginally popular, identifiably alt-rap-kinda subgenre emerges. (The Bay Area scene shows some promise on this front, but it's slim pickins at best.)

In 1982 that was more true than false. In 1989 it would've been laughably false. In 2004 the problem may be not that rap is nothing, but that it's exhausted, the province of dumbasses (the first 7,998,000 of the octuple-platinum fandom) and pomo-damaged scenesters and jock-sniffers (the last "critical" couple thousand).

My post was in response to your now-infamous list. I have not read this entire thread nor do I intend to.

i'd like to give lester the benefit of the doubt that had he lived he would have seen how wrong he was. even in 1982. heck, especially in 1982.

That might - actually, no, it clearly DOES frustrate you and you state as much in this thread as well as in your blog. But look at the dichotomies you raise in order to say, "it's not about race or black vs. white, it's about pop and indie, rockist and egalitarian, the-way-things-should-be vs. the-way-things-are." How are these binaries NOT about race in some underlying way? Yes, of course, they also represent arguments over aesthetics and values that are not WHOLLY BOUND to race but to utterly try to de-racialize the convo doesn't seem right to me either.

I mean, if boomers aren't feeling hip-hop - how is their rhetoric not racially coded in some fashion? This is from 1997, but Josh Kun's column on "The Racial Pasts of Music's Future" seems entirely relevant to our current conversation here, and in some fashion, predicts the ways in which our current discussion about Outkast, P&J, indie vs. pop, hip-hop vs. rock, et. al. has racial discourse coursing through its veins whether people want it to or not. That's the world that pop music exists in and while race does NOT have to over-determine everything (including this conversation), to try to remove it wholesale is just as bad as claiming that this thread is ONLY about race.

I agree with you Nate - it is about more than race, but that doesn't mean it's not about race too. If you want to target me for a groin-kick for saying that - bring it on ;)

I misplaced my groin-kickin' boots so there'll be none of that.

As a total aside, I actually did vote for Andre 3000 sans Big Boi for P&J. Not b/c I was hating on Big Boi (and I don't think anyone could rationally argue that I tokenize hip-hop) but frankly, I could never stop listening to "The Love Below" and thus, never got to "Speakerboxxx."

Oliver, you're right of course. But what do you think about the fundamental question that Nate is raising and that most others are evading (because they'd rather fight than think) ("they" incl. yours truly, apparently):

What is going on with so many people voting for OutKast as their only hip-hop vote?

And the further question I posed: What is going on when whole swaths of the "field" (pop, semipop) - e.g., country, adult contemporary - rarely if ever place on such polls as this, or when a swath - e.g., hip-hop - seems to place far below its desserts?

And by posting names and links, Nate makes sure that we don't come to simplistic conclusions.

This discussion hasn't really started yet.*

*Generic Frank Kogan comment. Now watch him disappear for a couple of weeks, as usual.

(Btw, I can imagine Harry Allen in 1987 believing that I was praising Kool Moe Dee, Spoonie Gee, et al. for being like punk rock, where actually I believed that Kool Moe Dee and Spoonie Gee were doing what punk no longer knew how to do. So my message was aimed at "punks": Spoonie's doing it, and you're not. Though there was a message for Harry and Greg et al. too: You've got to contend with just what it is that Spoonie et al. are actually doing, if Kogan here is upping them on account of their being punks. Maybe your own liking for them is based on a misunderstanding.)

Most importantly I think race has hardly disappeared from hip-hop's internal discourse, and is as present than ever, if not moreso -- no rapper denies how inescapable it is. Also was happy to see o. wang link to KCH's piece on native-american-drag & outkast.

But why so many ppl. are picking outkast as their only hip-hop vote should be pretty obvious -- coz the Dre disc doesn't work on hip-hop terrain, but a sort of syncretic afro-futurist humanist soulboy thing. Why Dre's leaving hip-hop terrain is pretty obvious too -- he feels the tropes therein (and even the compulsion of hip-hop sonic signifiers TOWARDS those tropes) don't talk about what HE wants to.

Is everyone who hears Outkast hearing what's driving Dre? No -- they're hearing what he's PRODUCING. Which gets to chuck's point from the P&J be improved thread:

I wish the Pazz and Jop poll told me more about hard rock,
teen pop, Nashville country, lots of things. I wish it told me less about white indie pop bands with boring singers and no rhythm
sections. But I've felt that way forever, basically. The problem is undoubtedly the composition of the electorate, though, not the voting
methods; or really, the problem is with the kind of people who decide to write about music when they grow up, which seems to be
somewhat limited. I am not sure how to change this.

By which I mean I suspect most of the ppl. voting outkast alone are probably pretty totally blind to the racial implications of how this plays out themselves, or might have some fucked-up views. Which is why I care less about how we like Outkast and more about how we hear and write about them, and how we understand what Dre is doing and WHY, which is the same thing as asking "Why hip-hop"?

An example of an interesting take on Outkast would be, for example, how does Dre concieve of time? (Listening to TLB now to help me think as I write this and Valentine's Day, say like hey ya digs further back than Stankonia did, though arguably not as far back as Rosa Parks) Like what distinguishes the sonic signifiers of the eras he uses, how does he see them?

I think Dre hears a sort of "perfect pop" bubble of oceanic emotion totally *absent* chronology, or rather drawing from moments across the spectrum of sonic history, and by nature of its ahistoricism managing to be more obviously absent racial discourse than any Outkast prior (Stankonia being arguable where this discourse was the most PRESENT, and also interrogated which is why I dug it).

So arguable Outkast are doing more to "whiten" (read: deracialize) certain elements of hip-hop than Eminem or Stagger Lee, where this stuff is ever-present.

Anyway how close is Roses to "I'm Only Human" from fear of a black hat? Not to mention which, between pimp juice and the credit card stunt in tip drill, how close is Nelly coming to that "booty juice" gag? That movie was fucking prescient.

Contrast maybe what Boi's doing almost as an answer record - equally a-historical, but rooted in difft. sounds and traditions at each step, more "soul" in the voices, more "swing" in the horns, more jump in the beats. Another bubble-world, but one composed not of escape but reaction. I gotta admit that I love "Last Call" -- the chorus reminds me of Drama's "Big Ball" which in turn is like "Leader of the Pack" which is in turn harder than anything on Dre's disc.

But Boi is as cartoonish as Dre on his own, coz roughly and broadly speaking you can map a historicism out of the interplay and arguments on a solid track together like much of Stankonia -- and a historicism which maps roughly onto the two sides of the escape narrative (struggle/postponed dream of freedom) which (again roughly) maps avant-black cultural thought in the 20th century and plays off of the DISTINCT pop/avant dynamic -- the point being Dre can make an album which doesn't barely carry anything which leaves it hip-hop but it means something difft. for him as a black man to do so than it would/did for say Pink and he CAN'T escape that. (nb: the construction and contestation of the "escape" narrative would have been a great project for me had grad schools not decided as far as i can tell that i'm too real for them -- no bitterness here) (nb2: The whole failure of SB/TLB can make a perfect case for the failure/limits of the escape narrative).

But I'm not saying most of the critics who only voted Outkast heard ANY of that. Nor maybe did plenty who voted hip-hop w/o Outkast, or even hip-hop WITH Outkast.

Which is the real problem.