Why is ILM almost exclusively male?

That and the willy waving over obscure B Sides and silly puns. God I love it.

(x-post)

What? When there's all this housework to be done?

(x-post but open to any reasonable offers)

DON'T LOOK IN THE FRIDGE, DEAR, THERE'S A HEAD IN IT

(x-post)

You girls must try to understand that if some of us guys appear condescending at times, it's probably only because we're extremely pompous and filled with an over-inflated sense of our own importance.

Weirdos

example?

-- Stewart Osborne (stewart.osborn...), June 21st, 2005.

This is especially true where lyrics relate to little fluffy kittens or where music is considered to have a good beat for performing step-areobics to.

"Ooooooooooh. Get her!"

-- Stewart Osborne (stewart.osborn...), June 21st, 2005.

-- Marcello Carlin (marcellocarli...), June 21st, 2005 11:47 AM. (later)

And her, the bitch!

I imagine "United" would be excellent for doing step-aerobics to.... must pop on my leotard and give it a try when I get home.

Well, if you will wear those short skirts and low-cut tops....

Y' gotta wait for your woman
Let her know you're there
I knew I had to go out 'n tell all of the women
That I knew they were there

Why are Captain Beefheart fans almost exclusively male?

They aren't. Not all of them. But most are. I love Beefheart (and hate Zappa).

Aaaaah Dadaismus; that is a question that has vexed some of the self-professed greatest minds of our generation - including Don himself's of course ("I'm playing this music so the young girls will come out and meet the monster tonight").

Curiously none of those minds have actually been women's minds' 'though.... presumably because they all have more important things to think about.

This is interesting 'though.

Women are noticeably scarce in the world of experimental music

my only experience with calling out a gender issue on ILM was on one of the fiery furnaces threads. after however many posts, it devolved into a discussion of how pretty eleanor is. i found it disheartening that after all was said and done we were left with indie rock hot or not?, and posted to that effect (so did matthew p). people went bonkers, accused us of being puritanical and fun-hating, and went on about how their discussion of eleanor's looks was part of a pure aesthetic consideration. the whole thing carried on for some time, and came to no satisfying end. i'm pretty sure that was my last attempt to discuss something seriously, not because i felt intimidated but because it felt beyond pointless. these days i stick to the occasional one-liner about how awesome tom petty is and i feel much better. -- lauren

"I'm playing this music so the young girls will come out and meet the monster tonight"

Lines like that are half the problem with old Don I'd imagine. Why the heck would girls want to meet a monster?

And why is that?

polly harvey to thread.

also, my current desktop wallpaper is a gila monster.

What a snobby answer, which translates as "women's tastes in music are bland and crap". No doubt more women listen to Dido. But then again, more men listen to Oasis.

http://icons.wunderground.com/data/wximagenew/o/oal/35.jpg

and I Agree many men between 20-45 listen to rubbish such as Oasis.

On the contrary, the question in my mind is: why whould any female in her right mind not want to get to grips with Don's Shiny Beast?

"Women are noticeably scarce in the world of experimental music".

I think the article's worth reading a little further than that.

I was entirely sympathetic with this right up until I read the bit about Tom Petty.

Oh, and speaking of Witches, Patti Smith ain't nothing but a sanctimonious, barefoot hippie.

What are the ratio of males to females at Killing Joke gigs and on The Gathering?

My recollection of 'Joke's early '80's following was that it was (like Beefheart's) quite noticeably male-dominated cf: most other punk / post-punk audiences of the time.

I'd say The Gathering is predominantly male, but this is not to say that it is exclusively male. Off the top of my head, I can think of at least six female members. So ha. But The Gathering and ILM are two very different entities with two very different agendas.

Alex in NYC, press the Random button, then count how many of the posts on the thread are by men, how many by women. I think you'll find that the 90 percent men figure is not far off.

Why not take this battle up with your sisters instead of pointing the accusatory finger at we males? I don't think anyone here behaves like it's a "boys only" club (well, I can think of one or two who do, actually, but no one takes them seriously).

Bigger question: who cares?

Paranoia is a disease of the mind.

The Beefheart list has always been very similar.

The Damned's messageboard (and their gigs) otoh, whilst still predominantly male, does seem to attract a far higher proportion of female posters (30% maybe?).

I'm afraid I'm unable to offer any suggestion as to why this situation should occur initially which wouldn't sound (or be open to interpretation as being) either facile or uncomfortably sexist.

Once a situation has evolved where any forum has become dominated by males however, the nature of the discussions do seem to inevitably reflect this fact; and I suspect it consequently become more intimidating for (some?) females to join in the discussions and thus increasingly difficult to redress the inequality in membership and as a result the tendency is for that forum to become ever more male-dominated.

I wonder if the same is also true in reverse - i.e. with female-dominated forums?

http://www.sleater-kinney.net/phpBB2/

Would lions still bother to indulge in roaring contests if there were absolutely no hot lionesses about for them to impress; or would they just get a few cans in, loosen their belts, let their beer-bellies hang out, and talk endlessly about the way Sabu brought down that gazelle right on the line in the 89th minute, just as it was about to go into extra time?

and that irritated me. the end.

However, I do see a problem that ILM is almost exclusively human. We need more input from our animal friends. Forest creaturs to thread!

(x-post)

Aren't even single-celled organisms safe from you, you pervert?

Main Entry: cal·um·ny
Pronunciation: 'ka-l&m-nE also 'kal-y&m-
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -nies
Etymology: Middle French & Latin; Middle French calomnie, from Latin calumnia, from calvi to deceive; perhaps akin to Old English hOlian to slander, Greek kElein to beguile
1 : a misrepresentation intended to blacken another's reputation
2 : the act of uttering false charges or misrepresentations maliciously calculated to damage another's reputation

And you wonder why women choose not to post here. You (or rather, she/I) feels as though you have to battle that preconceived idea.

Alex in NYC, press the Random button, then count how many of the posts on the thread are by men, how many by women. I think you'll find that the 90 percent men figure is not far off.

Why not take this battle up with your sisters instead of pointing the accusatory finger at we males? I don't think anyone here behaves like it's a "boys only" club (well, I can think of one or two who do, actually, but no one takes them seriously).

It's not about conscious sexism but the underlying vibe that sometimes permeates this board.

Interesting, because this goes against the conventional wisdom (pace S. Sherr's blog post) that nu-ILM (more listmaking, less analysis) has driven away all of the women.

Also also: As I said "elsewhere" (if that's what we're now calling the Noise Board), it does make me sad to think that I'm participating in a subculture that lacks gender diversity. I really wish this weren't the case.

I don't feel bad for liking baseball as much as I do, and you shouldn't feel bad for liking ILM. "Excluding women" != "participating in activities that might not be of interest to some (or many) women".

That's just about the dumbest shit I've ever heard. If anything, I've yet to see Dido mentioned (but probably because I'm not looking at all) and if we're noting those that are talking about crap they hear on the radio, it's not women mentioning Limp Bizkit and Good Charlotte, you know. I'm sure there's plenty nu-metal boards too, but strangely you're not exiling them to that.

I'm puzzled by this. Are you saying you wish that the subculture you're participating in featured greater gender diversity, or that you wish you were participating in a different subculture (i.e. one that features greater gender diversity)?

Would you not agree that the level / extent / lack of gender diversity is one of the essential defining factors of any subculture?

:(

I just can't find a reason to post here most of the time. I suppose the few times I did create a topic, no one seemed particularly interested even when I deliberatly created an inflammatory one. Also when I posted to other treads people mostly ignored my comments probably though not knowing who I was (I couldn't be bothered to develop a reputation by posting all the time), so I don't think I have posted anything here for a long long time.

Also, I find the threads that turn into how hot or not a certain female performer is boring.

You see guys? I told you so: we must try harder!

"I think the problem is that guys post too much rather than that women post too little."

Uh.... well.... maybe.... or vice versa perhaps?

I only mention it because I thought I'd heard similar sentiments earlier, from someone else.

I'm puzzled by this. Are you saying you wish that the subculture you're participating in featured greater gender diversity, or that you wish you were participating in a different subculture (i.e. one that features greater gender diversity)?

I just hate thinking of myself as stereotypically male in any way, and I know that ILM has prob. only exacerbated my geekish tendencies w/r/t music. On one hand, yeah, it'd make me feel better if there were more women around -- but I also think, "how did I fall into this music-geek world so readily?"

Yeah, Barry, I liked what you said.

xpost

I think it's probably a mistake to imagine that your "geekish tendencies w/r/t music" actually make you "stereotypically" anything at all.

Those of us who infest "this music-geek world" are in a very small minority: and it's probably far easier and far more accurate (not to mention the fact that it will almost certainly save you from a whole lot more self-doubt and self-loathing in the future) if you can start thinking of all of us as just being weird.

It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than open one's mouth and remove all doubt.

Apparently.

Stick together guys, join hands and form a circle, maintain eye contact with them and what ever you do, don't show them you're scared.

-- L.H.O.O.Q (lhoo...), June 21st, 2005.

I think this part is probably the most important. And when a field is already so overwhelmingly male-dominated, it can be dangerous to make Larry Summers-style pronouncements about the natural tendencies of the genders. I'm not saying it's nature, I'm not saying it's nurture, I'm just saying the statistics make it difficult to determine which it is.

I learned that quote from Lisa Simpson.

It's an interesting quirk of nature, but us guys are physically incapable of making our own you know.

(x-post)

xpost - no sandwiches, but: mud pies all round!

http://www.dailynexus.com/story_images/2004-04-16/Dlewis16apr04-TBTN.jpg

Men: how many times have you posted something that came off as unequivocal--"'Careless Whisper' blows dead bears; all civilized people know this"--when in fact your true opinion was of a greyer shade?

And don't formats like C/D and TS and POO sort of force you into solidified positions?

The Estrich debate (about why there aren't more female opinion writers) covered some of this ground. Zofia Smardz, of the Washington Post opinion section, wrote a very nice piece called "Just Give it a Shot, Girls," that talks about this. It's not that the guys are smarter or more opininated, just that the men don't shut up:

"Think of a man as carrying a quiverful of arrows. When he spies a target, he lets fly with the whole caboodle. Most of his arrows will miss the bulls-eye, but one is likely to hit. And that's the one people will remember -- and applaud. A woman, though, proceeds slowly and considers carefully. Only when she's pretty sure she has a perfect shot does she sent off a single arrow.. And she hits the mark! Amazing! But... too bad. The guy's already walked off with the prize."

I think nine out of every ten of my posts read something like that (although I'd hope to use a more evocative turn of phrase), but such declarations are ususally designed to spark debate and discussion.

The consumption of music may be on a same level for the two genders, but I really doubt if the consumption of music literature, music magazines, etc is. My guess is men do like to read about and analyse music more than women (although I'm not saying it's for any essentialist reason). Look at the gender ratio of music blogs. There really is no reason women can't set up their own music blogs, there's no pressure not to do so, but nonetheless there are far few female music blogs than male ones, and patently not for any reasons of intimidation or being shut out of the process.

All you have to do is listen to the way a man
sometimes talks to his wife at a table of people
and notice how intent he is on making his point
even though her lower lip is beginning to quiver,

and you will know why the women in science
fiction movies who inhabit a planet of their own
are not pictured making a salad or reading a magazine
when the men from earth arrive in their rocket,

why they are always standing in a semicircle
with their arms folded, their bare legs set apart,
their breasts protected by hard metal disks.

Billy Collins

i can't hear you over the mass stampede towards that website now...

NO HOT LIONESSES TO IMPRESS? HELLO!?! Though nerding out is no way to do it boys. (Lie). Really though, the reason more men post is because you are all A BUNCH OF SLACKERS WHO ARE USING THE INTERNET IN WORK TIME! We have cubs to feed. Or, er, money to earn for gin.

xpost to alex in nyc

You're really not paying very close attention, are you.

i don't think it's thin-skinned to read as hostile the "you're a festering pus-filled sore on satan's cloven hoof" type of posts.

I disagree, given the over-the-top nature of the terminogy involved (unless, of course, that person has undergone an acute humorectomy).

Exactly what I mean. And I do it too, of course. The format smiles upon it, and it generally works (in that the posting of a more-extreme opinion than you really have does, in fact, spark interesting discussions).

Smardz argues that women will not do this, or will not do it as much. Not because they don't have opinions, but because they take the act of posting an opinion out in the public eye much more seriously than we do, and are hesitant to do it just to spark debate. Women, she suggests, are much more protective of their opinions, and will not go off (pardon the pun) half-cocked in this fashion.

I'm really interested in this, because I sort of hate unequivocal comments like that and have always wished that people would own up to more honest opinions. It's interesting, Alex, that you say that it often sparks debate, because in my experience, it often has the precisely opposite effect -- that is, it shuts the door on any kind of actual engagement or potential to have one's mind changed.

Why should you need thick skin and a locker-room sense of humour to get by here, though? Why have you singled out dissenting opinions as the foundation of ILM? Your assumptions are already skewed towards a certain idea of dialogue that is adversarial and generally more suited to men than women.

Of course, almost no one ever stops at either "Classic" or "Dud"; most C/Ds have some backup--what one likes about the song, what one doesn't like, etc.

Fair enough, I suppose, but if you're going to give up that easily, than it musn't be a topic you care too much about to begin with.

I've wandered into countless thread prompted exclusivly out of the need to challenge someone else's unequivocal declaration. (the one that springs immediately to mind was a thread wherein someone suggested that "One in a MillIon" by Aaliyah changed the course of popular music. Suffice to say, I begged to differ).

danks fo da tip.

FWIW, I'm siding with Alex & his pus-filled sea serpents on this one.

I wasn't the one who invoked "the locker room," so I can't help you there. In terms of being "thick skinned," I wasn't making a grand generalization, I was merely alluding to a specific poster who made a big noise upthread. That said, I think dissenting opinions are the foundation of ILM. If we all agreed on everything, why in blazes would the afore-mentioned "taking sides" and/or "C/D" threads be so prevalent.

And why do you equate dissenting opinions with hostility? I may vociferously disagree with someone over the merits of a Smashing Pumpkins or Dizzee Rascal album, but that doesn't mean I believe they should be taken out back and slapped around........much.

http://www.philosophyslam.org/images_new/ayn-rand.jpg

Why do you persist in attempting to maintain a stereotype of how woman communicate and that being adversarial is more suited to men than women, a gender flawed idea in itself? Experience tells me that both men and women are equally competetive and violently adversarial. As for dissenting opinions being the foundation of ILM, not by a long shot.

http://www.thegoldenyears.org/peter_lorre.jpg

Of course this high-minded principle lasted about 3 days before "Classic, Duh"; "Dud or REALLY Dud" etc. came along and the whole thing just became one more way of shouting louder.

Similarly the idea of "Taking Sides" - which Dave Q used to understand perfectly - was to look at the ways in which things were similar as well as different.

(Sometimes I feel like one of those poor gimps who founds some kind of reformist model school only to have to confront real actual humans attending it.)

Then what, pray tell, is?

Perhaps I'm being guilty of my own penchant for overstatement. Dissenting opinions are still, to my mind, a huge part of ILM, but it's also a a remarkable resource for finding out about new things and meeting with like-minded individuals.

I've wandered into countless thread prompted exclusivly out of the need to challenge someone else's unequivocal declaration. (the one that springs immediately to mind was a thread wherein someone suggested that "One in a MillIon" by Aaliyah changed the course of popular music. Suffice to say, I begged to differ).

wow you are like the ultra uber mondo male. i guess in general, women don't like to discuss things rather than have a shouting match. if they choose to bow out of the match before it really gets off the ground, then to you they just must not care about it. i think it's more that they don't care about your opinion enough to try to engage with you on your terms.
and women are content to let perceived stupidity stand without challenging it (i have much 1st hand knowledge, believe you me), maybe because they know they'll just get a barbaric "YOU ARE A PEE PEE HEAD" type comment in reply.

Yes, absolutely. Seriously, read the Zofia Smardz piece. It's a good way round this stereotype and its negation.

http://www.teacuerdas.com/images/nostalgia-series-macgyver.jpg

I know several women who would hugely disagree with you. And would probably do so by shouting at you.

And I think it has less to do with a pissing match sensibility that you're clumsily referring to, than with the desire to engage and understand and, if inclined, disagree.

to be fair, the experience i've had with unequivocal comments serving as a barrier for discourse has been much more in the realm of real life rather than on ILM.

i still wish people were more comfortable letting their guard down sometimes, though.

http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:G7ENkBm4afkJ:eqlive.station.sony.com/images/concept_art/troll.jpg

alex you have got to be shitting me re: your trying to "understand".

"Richard Thompson's guitar solo in 'Turning of the Tide' is quite good."

"Yes, it certainly is. I especially like that middle bit with the harmonics."

"Yes, sirree, ol' Richard certainly can play."

"Yep."

Hard to keep that going.

Pile-ons, a la the Dave Matthews thread, can be an exception--but note that that thread dissolved into self-referential wankery; it's not still made up of new people coming in and saying how much Dave and his fans suxxor.

Sod off. xpost
-- Sara Sherr, Blogger and Stereolab Fan (sar...), June 21st, 2005.

Whoever this is (Jon, as someone induced?), it's really fucked up to register as someone else's known alias/name to begin with, but it's even more fucked up to trot his/her real/known e-mail address around the boards, guaranteeing that address will get spammed.

Jon, if this is you, I like you... but, in any case, stealing Sara's identity and posting under it is really fucking lame.

Like you'd give a fuck anyway. But just sayin'

</DIGRESSION>

In defense of Alex (not that he needs it): Oops, he's pretty much everything OTHER than what you've stated him to be. His insults are mostly reserved for artists/bands/etc, and in the short time I've been here I've not seen him engage in direct insults, in jest or in seriousness. A predilection towards having fun with polysyllabic words pertaining to medieval torture/mythical beast does not make one a bad person.

None of this answers the question, since it doesn't explain why men seem to prefer argument and analysis, or why the reasons that women give for leaving ILM don't motivate the men to leave, as well.

Fine, I'm shitting you. Whatever. You're clearly not interested in having me be anything other than a cartoon character to you, so fine. So be it.

Bottom line for me is that I don't think being pig-headed, argumentative and opinionated are exclusively male traits.

xpost first you say "hey relax, i'm clearly being an over-the-top cartoon character" and now it's "why must you think of me as a cartoon?". i cannot remember a single time when you've gone on a thread and said "i don't get X. can someone explain it to me?....oh ok. i still think it's guttersnipe cowshit, but now i understand why someone else might not".

no, those traits aren't, but i think they are more prevalent to males, esp when it comes to music, and online communities in general.

No, I'm saying that this isn't to be taken so seriously. Whatever.

cannot remember a single time when you've gone on a thread and said "i don't get X. can someone explain it to me?....oh ok. i still think it's guttersnipe cowshit, but now i understand why someone else might not".

Then you're not reading enough. I've done that a few times.

I don't think it should become the subject of this thread, unless there's something about that character that is gender-specific (in which case, I probably share that character).

Thank you, nor do I. I actually have to sign off now as my daughter has just woken up and is screaming her little head off in the other room. I'm Mr.Mom today. Quite the macho he-man, aren't I.

Awesome.

[prescient xpost?]

That said, when I think about it, I can imagine how, say, Ultragrrrl might feel differently if she read this board. Maybe I'm just able to overlook problematic aspects from where I am.

(Although I've heard that my online persona used to come off as intimidating so there you go.)

xpost I was trying to make a reference to those threads in a roundabout way. Certainly she personally got it a lot worse than some average woman poster would. I just meant to suggest that I could see how something like the UG thread could turn off potential female posters.

This about sums it up for me. I usually have nothing to say to all the list making and there is tons of that, more than you'd think, because often I'll click on a thread that looks interesting and it veers right off into the same practice of dredging up obscure bits of information but saying nothing interesting.

There's also too much snark. Wayyyy too much, the sort of "haha lame and everybody knows it" kind of snark. If I go on here and say I like something it's cool with me if somebody writes back that the artist should be boiled in their own excrement or whatever. But usually what you get is "haha lame" (aka "what is wrong w/you, everyone knows it's haha lame") or somebody talking about the band's haircuts or some shit that doesn't matter at all. I don't think this place should even be called "I Love Music." I've got no problem with Alex or any of the noize dudes.

I have a big problem, and I was wondering if you could help me. It goes like this. My mum's mum and dad and my grandparents on my great-grandmother's side live next to each other on the beach and everyone except me and my family and the people that don't know them and half the population of my dad's side of the family except the people that are alive think that my best friend's boyfriend's cousin's grandparents are rich but my teacher's half-brother-in-law told me that they're not. I happen to know that my big sister was adopted and I'm not sure whether my grandparents will like it if I ask whether I can borrow the clock in their hallway to give to my little brother as a consolation present because he doesn't want to ask my grandparents because he could get really embarrassed if I told him that my cousin is not really his cousin because my big sister is his cousin and my cousin is his father and he just looks young. My dad is his father too or he might be because mum had a lot of people hanging around at the time he was born, including the plumber and the electrician. What should I do?

Embarrassed and Desperate

(Smash Hits [Australia], November 16, 1988)

(List your answers.)

"No it isn't."
"It is."
"Not at all."
"Now look."
"This thread has been locked by an administrator"
"What?"
"That's it. This thread has been locked by an administrator.
"I was just getting interested."
"Sorry, we've picked five, the POV is up."
"That was never five picks!"
"I'm afraid it was."
"It wasn't."
"I'm sorry, but I'm not allowed to argue anymore."
"What?!"
"If you want me to go on arguing, you'll have to start another thread."
"Yes, but that was never five picks, just now. Oh come on!"

Wow, this is what I feel I don't get here that I do find in most of the rest of the world.

Another data point in support of the theory that men tend to favor intellectual shotgun blasts made in the hope of hitting something.

As I suggested to Jaymc earlier, those of us who infest "this music-geek world" are in a very small minority: and it's probably far easier and far more accurate to think of all of us as just being weird.

Stewart, remember how I said earlier I didn't like thinking of myself as having stereotypical male interests?

I lurk more than post because I'm bad at articulating my feelings about music, not because I'm intimidating by overwhelming maleness--or something. And I think the off-balance gender ratio here can be attributed more to an overriding attitude in The Music World than ILM on its own.

another data point in support of the theory that if my job is full-time caretaker of a child/house-husband for 2 & a half years I will spend too much time on the internet.

who cares?

Scott - that's one thing I haven't worked up to yet, is starting [gasp] my own thread. It's that whole 'what if I threw a party and nobody came' / 'if a tree falls in the forest & nobody cares' thing...

Ugh. My point was that of all the people who post here, some of the most vocal and informed ones happen to be female.

When I met my wife, I had about 750 CDs. She had 1.

I must admit I was confused by your comment about "the gender-blind exclusionary nature of these types of forums" David: in what way is being gender-blind exclusionary? Surely it is (or should be) inclusionary (if such a word exists)?

Surely some bands' haircuts should be boiled in their own excrement.

All those big engines thrusting huge phalluses into the sky....

"the gender-blind, exclusionary nature of these types of forums" - as in, it's exclusionary to folks regardless of gender

This is true, and I agree it's unfortunate; but at the same time, isn't this the same when you first encounter any group of people who've already known each other for a long time?

(Fwiw I've been here nearly 3 years now and I still haven't got a clue wtf "Fremme Neppa Venette"'s all about - I've just accepted that "lady, if you have to ask....")

and obviously I know that's what it's like entering into any group-thing like this; its difficulty level (however you want to interpret that, it's open-ended on purpose) just gets amplified when it's in a public setting the way this is. it'd be a totally different thing if it were, say, a mailing list.

Thank you Matos, I feel I can rest at last!

I think it was just how that backwards bit was transcribed in a typing down of the song's lyrics, which ended up on ILM (and Nate's blog, too, I think.) This was during ILM's (and the world's) "OMG OMG MISSY!" phase, and so soon enough scads of googlers showed upasking what it meant. Later there was also a phase where ppl visited those threads saying that there was some sort of contest, and Missy would award a prize to whoever found out what the mighty fremme neppe venette meant.

Missy Elliot: "Work It"

Regarding the interpretation of Missy's backwards comment on 'Work It': it seems to lack enough syllables. Shouldn't it be:

'It's your fremme neppa venette'

Which might be what my partner at a cocktail bar would say if the waiter put the fremme neppa venette in front of her, when in fact I had ordered it, and she had ordered, say, a regnab yevrah. Oy veh!

Fremme neppa venettes sure have a lot of cream and I'm no great fan of curacao.

xpost to Frank: I love you!

'Dipole' is a funny word.

I wonder why this band merited this mention....

Really, though. When I think about it, I listen to a hell of a lot of music in my everyday life. It's just that much of what I love to listen to is either not that appreciated here on ILX (there's not a huge market for very '80s-sounding synthpop, for example), had already been discussed to death by the time I got to ILX, or isn't exactly something you could really discuss with as much passion as a "newer" or "more up-and-coming" band/artist would be able to elicit. I mean, yeah, I listen to new music as well, but I'm still in a position of REALLY needing assistance with THAT, to gather ideas and opinions and whatnot that might help me in figuring out what's going on in the world of new music that might appeal to me. (I'm really into, surprise surprise, bands such as Franz Ferdinand, Interpol, The Bravery, The Killers, etc. And Fischerspooner, Ladytron, Soviet, Ascii Disko, etc. i.e. Party At Eighties Central.) So most of the time, when I swing on by ILMland, I'm looking for recommendations, stuff people think is good or cool or whatever, and have gotten to the point of being pleasantly surprised when I *can* find a thread I can participate in.

most of the women (not all) i know only listen to music in a passing fashion ... they aren't passionate about it the way men are. i don't know if we've some how been shut out, due to some sexist phenom or what. but my gut feeling is it could just be a natural inclination, maybe women's pleasure zones aren't auditory or whatever.

Actually, considering that at least half of what I listen to today (including my absolute favorites Duran Duran and Japan) I started listening to some 13 1/2 years ago. AND I still like much of what I was raised on -- all the oldies station material, sure -- stuff I first got an earful of some 20 years ago. And I'm SURE the majority of the people here on ILM can tell you ALL about my passionate attitude toward some of my favorites. I mean, look at the first italicized thing here on this thread!

Thought this was a big spot for 80s-sounding synthpop? Is there a place where people think more highly of the Pet Shop Boys?

See, the Pet Shop Boys are all nice and respectable these days. No, I'm talking about being able to openly admit to dancing around to King's "Love and Pride" or really getting into "Hanging On A Heart Attack" by Device or thinking that HoJo's "What Is Love" is one of the most romantic songs around. Maybe their time for becoming all nice and respectable is just around the corner. (What about Kajagoogoo? I mean, not minus Limahl, obv, but right around the time of White Feathers -- that album was killer!)

dee, you should make me a mix. i bet i would really like a lot of it.

:) How obscure would you want it to be? (I promise not to be predictable, BTW.)

Also, I'm baffled that Alex's hyperbolic attacks on artists are used as an example of what's intimidating/offputting about this place - Jess and Ethan's "haha" phase was far nastier in spirit. The noise dudes seem pretty bad too, but they don't get much respect as far as I can tell.

[SLAP!] You're not helping. Chicks like 'music' too. Not just bands.

See ya.

thanks Frank!

i quite liked the point made somewhere above that it might be because women aren't as enthusiastic about pissing contests as men, because sometimes that's what it seems like ilm is about. who knows though. certainly not me! and i'm going back to lurking after this anyway.

I do not post on ILM all that often because I find most threads dull and repetitive, either about something I'm not that interested in or about something where I don't feel I know enough to take part. Opinion/argument threads are worse because by the time you've read 300-plus posts you really can't be arsed to say something that's already been mentioned 200 posts upthread. I don't know if this is because I'm An Girl or because my attention span is fucked.

I don't really notice the gender imbalance all that much, though. Maybe because it just feels par for the course?

xpost

"Men on ILM go to bed early because we have to get up early in order to go to our jobs of work which finance our vainglorious music-consuming habits!"

Well, that and because bed is where we all go to rub our penises together, obv.

I'll start keeping my side of the bargain just as soon as The Government....

And how about posting a picture of yourself while you're at it?

Are you interested in rare '70's Indonesian Thrash-Jazz b-sides at all?

Aaaaaah. Does the "honourable member" refuse to be upstanding?

Don't worry, it's just your age; this happens to most of us occasionally as we get older.

Apparently.

You have to remember that ladies can smell desperation, like perspex fragments on the brow of an inadequately hosed-down dachshund.

Bless 'em.

Gaw blimey, you're a right toff guv'ner an' no mistake. Shine yer shoess for a shiny farthing sir?

Of course you do realise that when the revolution comes the likes of you will be the first up against the wall, don't you?

(Auberon Waugh on the miners' strike, Blitz magazine, late 1984)

(former Tory chancellor Nigel Lawson on the nature and extent of Thatcher's Government's preparation for that strike)

Michael Ignatieff

(Margaret Thatcher. Possibly)

"When I drive out each morning
In one of my new suits
I want to see them fawning
To clean my car and boots."

("Stewing Grass" by Philip Larkin, strangely omitted from his Collected Poems)

Gaw blimey an' law' lav a dack, 'ave you listened to Lord La-di-dah 'ere?

Sahnds like a right wanker, dunnee?

http://bbimages.digitalspy.co.uk/bb6/library/200x300_bb6_derek.jpg
Marcello Carlin

http://www.channel4.com/bigbrother/media/housemates/maxwell_hp.jpg
Stewart Osborne

Now cook my shoes and clean my tea!

What are the lower orders coming to these days?

You must be 'avin' a larf mate. Either that or you gone clean off your chomp. Cookin' shoes and cleanin' tea you say? Why, that's women's work is that, an' no mistakin'!

http://www.channel4.com/bigbrother/media/housemates/mary_hp.jpg
Alex In NYC!

Forever makin' strange incantations and conjurin' foul demons and plagues upon the 'eads of strangers 'ee be; and offerin' sacrifices in some strange demonic ritual that 'ee refer to as "honorin' Ray The Hater"....

http://www.channel4.com/bigbrother/media/housemates/mary_hp.jpg

http://dvdmedia.ign.com/media/reviews/image/monty2_general.jpg

Now, I've noticed a tendency for this messageboard to get rather silly. Now I do my best to keep things moving along, but I'm not having things getting silly. Now, nobody likes a good laugh more than I do... except perhaps Vegemite Grrl and some of her friends... oh yes and Susan Douglas. Come to think of it most people like a good laugh more than I do. But that's beside the point.

I don't know how gender-driven that is.

.... it's merely out cruising the backstreets looking for rent boys.

Nor, Osborne, do I switch off the kettle before it has boiled, Lemsip notwithstanding. Now stand before the form and construe.

Manus: noun meaning hand; 4th declension masculine.
manus, manus, manum, manus, manui, manu,
manus, manus, manus, manuum, manibus, manibus.

Stuprare: verb meaning to defile....

(x-post)

Bam Bas Bat Bamus Batis Bant!

Next time, lad, you will stand before the Head.

You do tell exceedingly large fibby fibs though.

ARSENAL!

xpost. or is it?

Sure, there are many threads with intriguing debates, but in general, the overwhelming tone of the board is snarky, full of in-jokes and liable to descend into personal insults and unrelated vendettas, eg, the Xenomania vs Richard X thing. I have lots of passion for music, and thinking about music, but usually getting involved in the threads leaves me thinking 'well, that achieved....?' so I don't bother.

OTM

i must be a man!

I think people confuse a female tendency to 'go along to get along' with the notion that they lack competitive instincts. Guys will ridicule and blast you to your face, but it's somehow not personal (despite many many many words to the effect that your mom's a diseased cunt)...women tend to dislike confrontation, but heaven knows they WILL get you back if you really piss them off. The heckling on these boards might be enough to bore them away from responding/commenting...and not enough to reduce the heckler to nosepicking, bedwetting panic.

Frankly, I'd rather compete with a man than a woman...because while the man might be favored over me due to some remnant form in institutionalized racism, the woman might sabotage me in order to win.... I have loads of female friends, but we all found each other tentatively..like, "please don't be another 'mean-girl'! Please?!"

I used to be the only female rap DJ at my college radio station. Very irritating that my opinions would be dismissed and ignored ...and then days later, some good would have the same fucking opinion and all the boys would think it genius! I would stomp and shake my fists and scream that I'd said it FIRST dammit! And the boys would exchange wry "what are we going to do about her?" looks over my head and shrug. So I think it's actually easier for women to be taken seriously in face-less venues such as this.

Then again...and I'm going to be drawn and quartered as a mysogynist for saying this...I hate the fact that most female movie reviewers write such lame criticism. I'm positively allergic to the word "heart"..as in, "despite the phenomenal performances by the lead actors, ravishing cinematography, ethereal score and brilliant editing, Finding Nemo lacks heart." What. the. fuck. does that ever mean? HUGE exception is Manohla Dargis. I lurv her.

In short, people are people and it shouldn't be that we get along so awfully.

racism, sexism, feminism, fanatism...so hard. like math.

I see you have problems reading. I'm so sorry. I hear there are courses that one can take that help. Sylvan? Hooked-on-phonics? Please let me know how it works out for you. All the best.

ILM certainly DOES make that dynamic a whole lot easier.

I keed, I keed. I do agree with you, on all counts. I'm really bad at those games in real life. My last boss was a woman who undermined everthing I did so thoroughly, I'd go home in tears, trying desperately to think of way to please her. Until I finally realized that it was
a)useless
b)not about me - she was in over her head, and I was the nearest target for abuse
c)time to quit

If you don't take ILM seriously, it becomes a lot more fun.

Edit for new posts - VegemiteGrrl, I know exactly what you mean. I love the name, btw, though I'm more into Marmite, myself.

I have no good ideas myself why there aren't more women posting on ILM, but very little posted on this thread seems OTM to me. I know women talk about music- I remember some great discussions from the bulletin board from our college radio station, so maybe it's just that more women haven't found ILM. Unless you google something that turns up a thread, it can be difficult to stumble it.

But I digress. :)

i don't read pitchfork!

I missed Lyra's part about being at an all-girl school, which does change the dynamic quite a bit. So take my little sermon on the mount and do with it what you will. Makes a good paper hat.

My school was integrated, and I'd always been under the impression that the single sex experience avoided as much bullying. Your experience throws that a little off balance...but supports my theory that they're kind of an unavoidable section of the population, no matter where you go.

Chaki: wassup

Orbit: nothing. having a nice night, how are you?

Chaki: im ok
im having a relaxing night myself

Chaki: can i ask you a sexual question

Orbit: go ahead

Chaki: how would you rate your ability to give a bj

Orbit: why are you asking me that? so you can cut and paste this somewhere and make fun of me? or are you just being obnoxious?

Chaki: you said i could ask
nevermind

Orbit: you can ask. but I can ask too.
i'd like to know the motive behind it before I decide if i will answer

Chaki: just curious.

Orbit: what made you curious?

Chaki: being male

Orbit: and you want one? I don't give blow jobs to people I don't know and love. When I know and love them, I am fantastic at it.
8:45 PM

Chaki: no i dont want one.
i asked all females and gay males on my list

Orbit: and what do they reply?

Chaki: all different
most people say they are great

Orbit: Well, it's not a difficult skill

Chaki: sure it is
i couldnt do it

Orbit: The evaluation of how good it is should lie with the receiver, not the giver. Ask XXX(Ex-LTR), if you dare and he will tell you what it is like to be on the receiving end of my blow job. That's the only way to know. And why would you want to give a blow job? Are you gay?

Chaki: sheesh talking with you is like talking to a scientologist.

Orbit: how so?

Chaki: you tell me?
see what i did there

Orbit: look i don't know you well enough to be comfortable with you in that kind of conversation. I am protecting myself, asking questions, and being suspicious.

Chaki:ok
s'all good

Orbit: I wouldn't mind getting to know you better, but this prob isn't the best way to go about it.
I have a good general impression of you.

Chaki: calm down
i was just askin

Orbit: untl then

Chaki: OMG You cry at orgasm!!!!!
====================================

etc etc ending up with me being told I was crazy. Now I ask you. Why aren't there more women in ILM?

Yeah, women are so different one-on-one than in packs. I was very much a loner even when girls wanted to befriend me (before puberty), and stayed a loner when I was ostricized (after)... Isn't it weird how girls form cliques around the prettiest girl? I haven't read that Queen Bee book, but it seems more or less self-evident to me. Always felt like maybe I was a genotypic XY cause all that whispering, telepathic girl stuff went right past me. I was totally clueless, and when some kind girl would take me aside (usually in the library where I eating lunch behind the shelves) and explain whatever-it-was to me, I'd still wonder....like "so that's it? that's what the fuss is about? Surely I'm still missing something, right?"

propose new question: "Why are men too intimidated to post on this thread about why ILM is exclusively male?"

But back to topic: I think partly is that most women don't find the sort of snarky, juvenile, pointless humor generally found on ILM to be actually funny. Massive turnoff, I think. I know it generally bores me. Except in my posts, of course.

I'm still here - but I'm having trouble keeping up.

I've been posting on ILM for months and I still haven't figure it out. Replying to something previously posted upthread?

on the contrary, i think we're (collectively) staying out of the way! it's one of the oldest and tiredest memes on ilx that anytime there's a thread about women, someone makes a sarcastic comment about the thread being a "sausage party", men are so lame, pasty losers, blah blah blah. so why not give the lie to that meme by staying out of the way and giving y'all space to discuss?

by the way, orbit, um, you did ask chaki's permission before posting that, didn't you? posting IMs without permission of the other person is not cool, no matter how lame they might have acted in said convo.

Tell us what confuses you, Moley. We won't bite.
-- cicatrix

No, that was just my weak joke about the old 'men-think-more-slowly-than-women' thing.

Obviously. They only snap and hiss at other girls!

I like how we've had the opposite theory (that women only care about one band, and ILM talks about too many) too.

I'm intersted to steer this conversation back to the thread topic, since there are so many women here. Scott raised an interesting point upthread about chicks starting their own threads. I have started one, that turned out to be a duplicate of a slightly older thread, to my embarrassment. I want to know if any of you have started thread, if that experience deterred you in any way, or why you have thus far opted not to.

Oh, man. good one, Susan. That's really what the bitchy girls did right? Make you uncertain about who to trust, what to believe, and insecure in yourself...sometimes jsut to watch you writhe. Or cause they don't like the color of your socks.

XY Chromosomer, I guess you're proving the point that there are both male and female idiot hecklers on this board. Anyone who randomly turns up just hurls a general insult deserves to be greated with deafening silence. Unless the insult is funny, in which case, it's all good.

I gave up my own viewpoints on this issue, viewpoints that, you'll notice, come from a FEMALE. A female's female. A female who STILL to this day has primarily women and gay men for friends. A female who will go to Sandra Bullock movies. What I offered doesn't have to apply to all women everywhere, but I would think it would apply to a certain segment of very womanly women, albeit minus the very me-oriented specifics, e.g. the genres and artists I offered up as my own personal "hey, this is what I love so very, very much".

So I'm a female-y female. I love to chat about all sorts of things. I was primarily drawn to the chatty threads because I felt like there's no pressure on me to measure up to anything, though now it feels like I'm under great pressure to say something funny or else I'm not worth volleying back and forth with conversationally. And, oddly enough, ILM, the place I had previously thought would judge me harshly for not having as wide a base of musical knowledge as the rest of the lot AND for having what I thought the ILM massive would consider crap, uncool musical taste (I mean, let's face it guys -- none of you guys are going to put most of the musical artists I love on any sort of "Top 25" list, so it IS based on reality), has become a haven for the less-pressure stuff I love. And ILM's actually more EGALITARIAN than ILE is most of the time; you can't learn how to be funny or witty enough to be Excelsiored, but you CAN devote yourself to listening to all sorts of differing artists and developing your own opinions about them, which you can then use to great effect here on ILM.

Anyway. Hope you get my gist.

since then i make frequent use of the search function and i've yet to have a question that hadn't already been asked and answered in the past.

well fair enough, though i can't help but be bemused: if you thought it was wrong, why are you doing it now? (unless they honestly changed your mind about the issue.)

also i don't understand at all what that IM conversation with chaki has to do with ILM specifically, if anything it seems much more ILE-ish.

xxpost: random insult? idiot heckler? i'm confused, i wasn't dissing anybody (well, except people who pound away at the "sausage party" motif). did you misunderstand my post?

Orbit, I had missed that IM upthread, I just read it now and I'm sorry that happened to you. Sincerely. In fact I think the reason I didn't notice it was no-one mentioned it, I think out of respect as much as embarrassment. But I have to say, gently, that the IM might really only be representative of Chaki, rather than ILM in general. I can see how you'd opt for the latter out of hand though.

no, no ..you misunderstood me. I was referring to people who made the "sausage party" comments, not you. Sorry for the confusing.

thx vegemite girl :-)

orbit, i do understand your point, but i guess i don't agree. maybe there is a subset of guys who might hit on you (or otherwise annoy you) because of your being on ILM specifically ("she likes music, drool"), but with ILE right next door, i doubt somewhat that people are just singling out ILM women for that kind of rude stuff. (and isn't chaki referring to something you posted on ILE, not ILM? you're "visible" wherever you post, here.)

i'm just disagreeing over the ILM/ILE distinction you're making. there's certainly no doubt that women who post to music boards attract unwanted attention, i just think that here specifically, the communities are so intertwined (one click away, same formatting, lots of crossconnections) that it's hard to say that your presence on ILM is the source of the negative attention, as opposed to ILX as a whole. why would anyone who was looking to pester decide to use the board with fewer women, when there's one right next door with many more women?

sucks that chaki was unpleasant, though. i wonder if he thought your "gay" comment was meant as an insult, it was after that that he turned nasty (as opposed to just rude).

Just asking...

BTW - Chaki's IM was certainly fucked up. However (not to start any fights, I understand the motivation), posting it on the board was probably not the most appropriate reaction...especially since he isn't engaged in the conversation here, and thus can't "defend" his behavior. (Not that I see that as likely, per se.)

to answer your first question, i think its a vibe here. but to me the vibe here is bio-male, but not overly masculine (which i like). not to emasculate anyone though, of course.

john, speaking for myself, I usually don't assume gender until the person identifies him/herself as such. So reading the thread becomes quite handy (hint)

kidding! really...where did the snark go? must I play the fool all alone?

Anyway, as someone with a gender neutral name..I found that people actually assumed I was male and referred to me as such on another thread (I'd only posted on one particular thread at that time)...which probably underscores this topic since even when you're female, there are supposed to be so few here, people assume you're male.

i will say, though, from other experiences, that it can be liberating.

roflrofl - make sure you have "error correction" turned on!

its a feminine word.

btw, whenever i see your name, susan, i think of

http://www.leaveittobeaver.org/images/where_the_girls_ar.jpg

itunes>preferences>importing: check "Use error correction when reading Audio CDs"

I will stop this now, as it cannot be of interest to the community.

i think corin and carrie used to date like AGES ago, but now corin is married to a dude. not sure what carrie's deal is. janet, the drummer, is straight, i believe. (she's with sam coombes from quasi.)

http://s51.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=27A3LMTEG6KUX2LTHQTXR3JLKK

But we are getsing far away from point plan of thread title questions. The fact is that males go on ILM and are dominatring because the males are more socialistic, more left of the wing, therefore they want to tear every things down, destroy them and builds them up again rebuild, so they know detail of punks rocks and it is therefore this is why it is a socialistic punks rocks actitude that they have when they go on the ILM. But females do not, because females are purposed for having children and bear tolerate offspring. So they are more incline to nurture and conserve therefore women tend to vote Conversative when it is the election, so they do not need to engage in atonal, non-melodic argument because their childrens are the futures!

The mongrels adore the gem!

(For the record, I'm a chick and a lurker.)

I think the "o no women can be meeeeean!" was mostly a digression, nothing to do with the women-on-ilm topic. You know, you're talking about how men and women are different, why not talk about those mean girls in high school and how you really don't like girls in general because they undercut you and are bitchy about you all the time and you've never really understood them?

Though I got the sense from cicatrix's original post that she wasn't saying that - that she was more saying "while we're talking about how women don't tend to just say YOU ARE WRONG WRONG WRONG, don't do that immediate competitive-argumentative thing (which is being posited as reason for not enjoying teh ilm), that's not to say that women don't have their own ways of asserting themselves, which however are sneakier."

maybe she was providing a subtle case-in-point about how sometimes women can be unpleasant to each other, eh.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Because there is Dissensus.
-- Comstock Carabinieri

I guess I set myself up for that riposte.

Ok, sorry to have patronized Candicissima...I was trying to be funny more than anything else...and in doing so in a snarky manner trying to underscore my point (which I thought she missed - which is why I asked if she could read) that this notion that ILM men scare off easily-hurt women should really be discounted since girls can be plenty aggressive and fierce.

Obviously, I should have phrased that more clearly since she misunderstood, and so did you. And apparently she's offended now, which in fact, proves me wrong, since I seem to have scared her off despite not even being male (not that it changes anything).

I'm not advocating rudeness, hostility, or anything other than the right for anyone to have an opinion. I apologize if I was mean. I really hoped she'd say something snarky right back. Because do we really want special consideration, as women, because our feelings are more delicate?

On the threads, if a guy's being a jackass, don't other guys just ignore him or call him on it, instead of being hurt? I'm all for being supportive, but without disagreement, where's the discussion?

that didn't mean to sound as aggressive as it did, btw.

Hence the calling him/her on it? Which I have done to the point of irritating several regular posters.

Who were being assholes, IMHO, so I don't really feel that bad about it...

What really sucks, I think, is those moments where you see some unfortunate poster being RAILED UPON, and you are forced to sit back out of respect for their own right to defend and attack. And then you never see them again.

Sort of like watching the bully (intended or not) taking the lunch money, and not doing anything about it.

g'damn..I thought the point was to prove that we're not different from men, so they shouldn't patronize us for being sensitive fragile fearful little things? That we can be as loud, opinionated, as they are assumed to be, or think they are?

-- cicatrix (skedussu...), June 23rd, 2005 4:26 AM. (later)

"I think it's the only way to deal with ILM, people on the subway, everyone at the postoffice, customer 'help' representatives, and family...not take it too seriously, or personally, and tell the totally moronic to fuck off. At least, that's my credo."

-- cicatrix (skedussu...), June 23rd, 2005 5:56 AM. (later)

"I'm not advocating rudeness, hostility, or anything other than the right for anyone to have an opinion. I apologize if I was mean. I really hoped she'd say something snarky right back. Because do we really want special consideration, as women, because our feelings are more delicate?

On the threads, if a guy's being a jackass, don't other guys just ignore him or call him on it, instead of being hurt? I'm all for being supportive, but without disagreement, where's the discussion?"

-- cicatrix (skedussu...), June 23rd, 2005 8:52 AM. (later)

FAL! Cicatrix, have you met Alex in NYC?

Anyway, as someone with a gender neutral name..I found that people actually assumed I was male and referred to me as such on another thread (I'd only posted on one particular thread at that time)...which probably underscores this topic since even when you're female, there are supposed to be so few here, people assume you're male.

-- cicatrix (skedussu...), June 23rd, 2005 6:37 AM. (later)

Actually I automatically assumed you were female because I vaguely recall that ...trix is a feminine suffix (equivalent to to the male ...tor). Maybe that's just me 'though?

I must admit I find something attractive in this theory and I can identify some female friends and acquaintances whose music colections suggest that it's true - although I can think of just as many whose music collections suggest a number of different alternatives.

What do the members of the jury think of this theory?

(x-post far more pressing communique from the esteemed Mr. Carlin)

(I am just so easily led...)

I was trying to imply a certain similarity in approach between yourself and the fire-honouring beast of NYC.

Why would a medical terms for scar tissue be feminine I wonder?

Is this an inference that only women are made of flesh and blood; or could it be a warning that unprotected contact with women can leave one with permanent scarring?

hmm..he might have something there. I remember reading something similiar about why women are actually better in the stockmarket - they're more likely to sell off a tanking stock since it hasn't become an ego thing. They lose less money in the general scheme of market ups and downs since they don't feel like they're judged by the portfolio they choose.

Might be an identity thing? Men seem to think that if you, say, like Grime, then you must own artists X,Yand Z..and if you don't, then, well, you're a bloody poser. What you like becomes who you are. Women seem to clearly delineate between the two.

I have to say I think this is crap. Sure, plenty of women are loud and opinionated. But in general, statistically, are men and women equal in their loudness and opinionatedness? No. I hate the assumption that the only way we can be equal with men is to take on typically male traits. It's not asking to be patronised when you ask someone to respect and respond to the fact that you're not necessarily as loud and opinionated as they are. I think the absolute opposite is true.

could it be a warning that unprotected contact with women can leave one with permanent scarring?
Man...I'm sorry your mom fucked you up so bad.

If you feel the need to say I'm ___ because I'm a girl, then I guess we must agree to disagree. (and yes I do think women are pushed too hard in every direction to compete at work, be great moms, have perfect bodies etc. yes we do need more maternity leave, prenatal care and better day-care. But I didn't think this thread really needed that spelled out, or that such topics belonged here. Because afterall, this is a MESSAGE BOARD, not the real world.

And yes of course I was generalising. What's wrong with generalising? Male and female behaviour can certainly be characterised, but obviously those characterisations and generalisations don't apply to everyone. To say that men tend to be a bit louder and more opinionated than women is not to say that there aren't plenty of loud and opinionated women, nor is it to make any sort of value judgement on loudness and opinionatedness.

Well, except to the extent that Ultragrill thoughtfully pointed out earlier of course....

"...no generalization about women. no generalizations about men. loud girls, quiet boys, shy girls, obnoxious boys...it's a mixed bag of goodness, so why not refuse to be loud because that's who you are instead of because you're a girl?"

Absolutely OTM (that's "On The Money" or maybe "On The Mark")....

Hey Cicatrix, are you interested in rare '70's Indonesian Thrash-Jazz b-sides at all?

So are we unreal then?

Ah yes (since this seems to be the least potentially contentious live topic on this thread at present) you found a pound of meat you say? Do pray tell me more, sirrah!

'Twas Christmas Day in the workhouse...

(Stewart, you might like to enquire whether the meat was mutton)

To varying degrees, yes.

ROFL! and now the thread comes FC (that's "Full Circle" I believe)

I'd say I've long been searching for Thrash-Jazz in the world music bins of record stores buried in the byzantine corners of Alphabet city...but if you've read Hi-Fidelity at all (and of course you must have!) you should know that tatty-scraps are all I have.

(is this going anywhere?)

Yes, High Fidelity with its women who like Simply Red because they are too stupid to like Solomon Burke.

So Mr Hornby, kindly leave the stage.

Hahahaha! Dangerous Brothers!

"Arm in arm togethaaahhhhh..."

"Rolllll out the barrralll-ah! We'll 'ave a barral a' fun....!"

Only crap.

Maybe less women post because some of us have a low tolerance for assholes.

-- Horseshoe (rosalind51...), June 23rd, 2005.

suggested otherwise.

What makes you think no one (male) ever gets hurt by things said here, without necessarily expressing it (which might look like just ignoring it, but still involves being hurt)?

Plus, I was unemployed 3 years ago and I don't have the time to spend my day continuing an argument about Wolf Eyes or if the Fiery Furnaces suck.

Are there any ILxors in Jersey?

(There is little I think I could constructively add to the conversation about gender dynamics. If anything I'm a touch miffed at the anti-ILM-as-such approach taken by Jams/Ally/etc., though this shouldn't be construed as anger at them of course, and I understand where they're coming from quite easily. I view all the boards on the server that I participate in as ones that you bring what you can to, and take what you wish from, rather than trying to treat them as something unified in conception that you wholly accept or wholly reject. There are always excellent threads here at any given time, and there are others I skip over or that don't capture my attention.)

SHHHH

ANYWAY NOTHING LIKE HURT COULD FUEL ANY OF THE RANTING & MISC. ASSHATTERY EXEMPLARY DISCOURSE OF A MALE ILMer

seriously, thank you for saying this.

Maybe less women post here because some of us have a low tolerance for assholes.

otm except plz clarify that the categories "women" and "assholes" can intersect, especially when striving for inclusion in, or angry about exclusion from, numerically male-dominated groups. i certainly have never seen or been involved in it myself, but one hears of such things.

Your dog's got no nose, you say?

How does he smell?

(In retrospect, one of the most amazing things Monty Python ever did was take clips from Triumph of the Will, chop them up and overlay that joke over them as subtitles. The last laugh, indeed.)

Hi Ned!

we're not different from men

and

if you seriously believe that women are not different from men, you're flying in the face of all evidence.

Gender politics is a WHOLE nother thread...

I think this thread moved past it's original question--why is ILM almost exclusively male? and instead moved into "here's the thread where we defend ILM and everyone in it" which seems a little defensive and not the point of the thread.

I would like a girl thread, to explore an alternate universe. Without logged out males pretending to be females etc etc.

HI BETTER THAN YOU!!

two posts later

NOPE STILL BETTER THAN YOU!!"

-T. Millar

Orbit Lolz:
This is the thread where we post about how much we HATE Orbit.
has ilx gotten FUCKING CREEPY lately? (was originally "has ilx become more hostile to women?")
POX: Threads Locked by an Administrator
Why do white people have a problem with fat girls?

i can go on and on and on.

No, she went of her own accord.

Sometimes the hostility is just creepiness--like the make ILXor who saves all his private chats with female ILXors to disk--without notifying them he is doing so. Hostile? Dunno, but when you are going to record a phone conversation you have to tell the person, why is a chat any different?

-- Orbit (cstarrcsta...), August 30th, 2003.

Ok, for the record. The only saved chats I had seens WERE from female ILXors so I had no basis for including the mail. Second, it has ALWAYS been considered bad netiquette to post private emails in a public forum; and a private chat is also private; as I said when someone is having a phone conversation which they are recording they must notify the victim that they are being recorded. A private chat is no different, and I find it offensive to not be notified that my private chats are being saved to disk.

-- Orbit (cstarrcstarr...), August 30th, 2003

such a bullshitter!