RPGs are better in 2D. Discuss!

Fallout, Ultima, Arcanum, Baldur's Gate 2, etc.

I dunno. I think Bloodlines would have been a great 3D RPG, had they actually fixed the whole "3D" bit. Anachronox was great, if having shitty character models. KOTOR 1 & 2 were excellent.

Never did play Morrowind past the first 20 minutes, or Jade Empire.

Are you talking about technical implementation or the writing?

Final Fantasy Tactics Advance looks 300% better than Final Fantasy Tactics did.

yeah, it's going to be interesting to see when/if they ever get past the technical gimmickry of 3D to actually realize that you can get a perfectly fine game with 2D sprites.

I honestly think if you absolutely HAVE to do polygonal models then you might as well do prerendered sprites, for a vast amount of games where perspective tends to be static or only vary between maybe 4 positions. There's just so many cases where I can think of an environment which could have looked perfectly nice in 2D and gets rendered as this ugly, chunky, flat, sharp-edged landscape of crap.

Baldur's Gate 2 on the PS2 did look pretty nice, as a matter of fact.

I'm mostly talking about consoles. I don't know why people would want to play games on a computer unless it was the last resort.

Baldur's Gate 2 on the PS2 did look pretty nice, as a matter of fact.

weren't these the Dark Alliance games, which were more of an actiony spin-off of a license?

I don't know why people would want to play games on a computer unless it was the last resort.

Hold on, you don't see how anyone could prefer using a keyboard & a mouse when playing a FPS to a gamepad & two analog sticks?

at any rate, everybody has their reasons. mine are game selection, graphics, access, controls, expansion abilities, patching(mixed blessing, admittedly), mods, etc.

but this part is discussion better held for another thread.

2D RPGs are very much better: all the Nippon Ichi games use 2D sprites as does Atelier Iris. And I enjoyed those far more than Final Fantasy 8,9,10/Xenosaga/Legend of Dragoon/Star Ocean/etc.

Anyway though back on topic, there have been NO 3D rpgs as good as Chrono Trigger, for example. Explain yourselves, modern consoles.

Both of the KOTOR games rank up there among the best RPGs I've ever played, as well as Neverwinter Nights and World of Warcraft. I also am deeply, deeply fond of the BG/Icewind Dale series so it's not like I think 3D rules over all (actually it's a toss-up between BG2 and Planescape: Torment as to which I think is the greatest RPG of all time) but if you're really going to break things down, it's a matter of PC vs console, not 2D vs 3D.

a) As I think tombot said, prerendered 2d just looks *loads* nicer than 3d unless you're using 3d for a reason, Age of Mythology is the best example I can think of where this rule got ignored at needless disasterous peril.

b) Stuff like Morrowind says "hey hey wait I AM using 3d for a reason because look we have a fightin' engine checkitout checkitout", but this kinda messes up the POINT of RPGs which is numbers going up bcz now you can kill hard things just by being good (this was kinda a fatal problem with daggerfall)

For some reason the combat system in Chrono Trigger and Xenogears sits fine with me, presumably because they're both slightly better than just picking "fight" over and over.

Special bonus in the isometric rendered RPG category goes to Fallout Tactics for taking a wonderful franchise and stripping it of the essential attribute that made it great in favor of making you click through the turn-based combat system over and over until you wanted to die.

Chrono Chross, one of its official sequels(not counting teh Japan-only Radical Dreamers), is kinda a different game.

xpost: FO: Tactics does let you switch to real-time. Enh implementation, tho.

xpost: I've heard great things about Chrono Trigger but I also heard great things about Lunar and AO and those both sucked like sucking was back in style. Hello Working Designs, please eat one hot death.

I'd most definately take FFX over any of its predecessors. The key thing is probably that I never really played any of the 2D Final Fantasies until I was already a jaded teenager, so there's no fond memories to fall back on.

As for PCs; I'm playing the first Dungeon Siege these days, and it's one of the top 3 most painful, tedious games I've ever toiled to finish. As opposed to Diablo 2, which used to keep me happily occupied for hundreds of hours (oh god). The 3D element is probably part of why it frustrates me, I hate all the extra clicks and whistles and the crappy camera. But it was just a shitty game to begin with. I think this is one of those, whaddya call em, false dichotomies. Or some shit, I flunked out of high school lol.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0460780/

they realized that "Dungeon Siege" was que lame as a title, so it's now "In the Name of the King."

Billy Zane is really going to watch the Titanic sink this time... or maybe he's on to something? According to the Hollywood Reporter Billy Zane has partnered with James Schramm to form Romar Entertainment, an independent distribution company that the actor said will offer an innovative business model for creators and performers- his first film, Uwe Boll's BloodRayne (review), which he plays a small role in. Romar is designed to give producers a wholesale media buy along with a studio-style wide theatrical release for a fraction of what a typical distribution deal costs, Zane said. When the theatrical run is complete, the producer retains all rights and ownership of the film. "As an actor, I've never received a net point from any film I've done," Zane said. "I look forward to paying net points out to others through this radical new model."

Poor Billy Zane.

hahaha. Take all your money, then just throw it into the toilet. there's your model!

SHUT UP I WAS HUNGOVER, OKAY???????????

mind you, i just got the new PC version of Fable, so...

what other 2D RPGs are there to look forward to on the DS?

xenosaga 1 + 2?

I might have to import mother 1 + 2 now then

in japanese though?

At any rate, yes, more 2D RPGs in the works.

I just started pottering around in it in the emulator and I'm really impressed

I also think that games should not allow saving and that "killing" a character in combat should be a bigger deal. Like in Bard's Tale!

Wrong. I played Ultima VIII, and Diablo, though not extensively.

Diablo is kiddy shit. No depth!

My point was not that Diablo is deep, but that you were wrong.

3D RPGs worth playing that I can't believe I forgot before: CLOUDS OF XEEN and DARKSIDE OF XEEN.

I thought those ideas sounded cool too until I actually had to deal with them, then I realized they're the anti-fun.

Seriously Jon steal a copy of Fire Emblem for the GBA. It's awesome, it's exciting, it's great, then you get fucked and have to start all over from the beginning.

Is there much love for Arena/Daggerfall/Morrowind here? I like the sandbox mixed with level progression and increases in abilities/power to destroy the shit out of whole towns.

RPGs in 3D are great, too!

This is non-integrated tripe for 14 year old boys who love HOW AWESOME shit is. Think about it. Most of the secrets are simply HUGE SPELLS and HUGE WEAPONS.

they're remaking all the 2D Final Fantasies into 3D for the DS.

You enjoy taking secondary points that I make and turning them into my entire argument. I think that secrets, multiple paths, etc. give depth and replayability to games, as opposed moving on one linear path from event to event. I enjoy the extra challenge they provide, particularly in games that I love and want to extend as long as possible.

Things are are way more important to me than : game design, storytelling, character development, battle systems, ETC ETC ETC.

Fire Emblem, FFT, FFTA and even Chrono Trigger, Terranigma, Secret of Mana, etc. would have gotten dropped like they were hot by me if I hadn't had some interest in fighting my way to the next plot point through the storyline. Non-linear dungeon crawls = no sense of purpose or discovery = I'm going to go play outside.

In my opinion, the best secrets are the ones that unlock extra parts of the story and character histories, actually. But the kind of secrets you're talking about are still classic. I, for one, enjoy the challenge of hunting down obscure enemies and killing them for awesome weapons. CONDEMN ME IF YOU MUST.

Also, that spell in FF7 that takes 3 minutes and shows half the solar system = DUD

And don't get me wrong, I loved FF3 and FF7 wasn't even that horrible, but to speak of character development with these games is insane.

You told me you thought FF3 was "OK" and nothing more, when I was raving about it. And did you really care so little about the characters that you weren't affected by Kefka killing General Leo?

You can antagonize me when I get home, you know. I live 8 feet away from you.

And yes, I am excited about Advent Children.

name a show where that'd work. Aqua Teen? Home Movies?

Excuse me, I think my eyes need to commit hari kari.

well, not anyMORE. Home Movies was great, but that's not running anymore...

ps. fuck u if u disagree

Dan you need a new keyboard.

I live 8 feet away from you.

Do you two, like, live together?

That should read: Jon, tell me RPGs to play! (besides Nethack, I <3 Nethack obv), I will play them and FF3 and resolve this dispute by SCIENCE.

I was thinking about it maore this weekend, how it seems like the SNES and PSone platforms have carried a disproportionate number of the most lauded RPG/adventure titles to date (and I realize my generational handicap at work, though keep in mind I also never personally owned or lived anywhere with either console until about 2000). More polygons, more voice-overs = more reasons NOT to identify with a character.

I didn't have as much trouble with Baldur's Gate games or the Fallout series in the whole "masking effect" sense because those games also let you have a greater degree of control over your actions and persona. Making your own moral choices vs. aesthetic choices, it's a videogame! No difference! See Black & White (gah).

If I can CHOOSE exactly what my pseudorealistic fantasy self gets to looks like or what they do with their lives, that circumvents the need for the masking effect.

If I'm stuck with some douchebag avatar whose destiny is welded to the results of a strings command then at least make him/her/it abstracted enough to appeal to more than Gwen Stefani's dancing troupe.

My two absolute favorite timewasters since getting into videogames again: Katamari Damacy and Minish Cap. Apparently I really love the idea of being a tiny person clad all in green with a dumb looking hat on.

-- TOMBOT (pete...), February 23rd, 2005.

I tried to get started on FFTA this morning and froze up in exasperation at the "name yourself" screen. Like, can I get a game where I am NOT some kind of androgynous Aryan pussywillow and all my friends have stupid-ass unisex monikers? Seriously I think Kirby, who is a PINK BUBBLE, is more heroic than this nymph of the lilypads they want me to pretend I am here. I even restarted, tried to name him/her/it AGAIN, and got stuck once more because looking at that stupid little face gave me a brain fart. ARRRGH.

-- TOMBOT (maybe.name.i...), February 23rd, 2005.

I renamed RAMZA to HANSEL which helped things a bit (he's so hot right now) but I don't know if I'll be picking that up again for a while because now that I'm into it FFTA is SO MUCH BETTER.
The pixel graphics on the DS are so much nicer than the crappy rendered 3D terrain maps from the PS version.

After a little bit of soul-searching I realized what my REAL problem was with playing as a tow-headed milquetoast with no athletic ability or fashion sense and named my FFTA character "Tom." Tom of CLAN SUPERBAD.

More on that topic I realized this morning that FFT/FFTA should really just be renamed "Final Fantasy: Human Resources Management," I mean I'm only a few hours in and I already feel like I should be putting together Training And Orientation For New Hires packets or some shit. "Take him down the hall, get his badge made up, issue him a White Staff, Leather Garb and send him on a Level 1 Dispatch." WHY IS IT FUN?

-- TOMBOT (bes...), February 25th, 2005.

This has happened with games of any genre, but especially with RPGs where it'd take away from narrative and/or gameplay development.

What about Uncanny Valley problems? Does nobody have as big an issue with this as I do?
The one side being Dead Or Alive Volleyball/Xenosaga, which make me feel ill (though I hold out hope for the Xenosaga remakes for the DS; lower resolution: a balm in gilead) because I'm kinda disturbed about the designers & their presumed target audience.
The other side being Dead Or Alive/Vice City, big rendered meat-maps moving around in totally unnatural ways that cause me to get goosebumps in the bad way. When you're wrapped up in gameplay the action is usually abstracted enough that it isn't completey bad goosebumps, but when the end of every fight or mission is essentially a cutscene it gets just plain icky.

I'm totally in the minority on this one, aren't I? I think Battlegrounds II looks like shit, too.

I can't think of a single game where the "prettyness" or polygonal nature of the graphics detracted from the game for me; it's always been deficiencies in gameplay. I see the argument that people are sacrificing gameplay for graphics but I don't completely buy it in the sense that once someone pushes through a graphical barrier, someone else is usually right behind them developing a similarly-pretty game that's actually fun to play.

3D graphics rob you of the creation of the characters and the world in your mind, because they are already realized, albeit imperfectly. Where I forgave and even embraced the ridiculous, jerky movements of the victory dance in FFI, for example, I found myself so much more critical of the movements in the 3D RPGs, because they pretended to be beyond that, to be more.

I know it's not a game, but Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within is another good example of this phenomenon.

I like 3D games, and at times they've really awed me, but I love 2D ones. I think eventually they will find their way out of the valley, and that good games can be made from within it when they don't use the graphics as so much of a crutch, but deep in my heart part of me will always prefer the SNES era because the graphics were just good enough to stimulate your imagination, but not so good (or so "good") that it rendered your imagination useless.

Final Fantasy Tactics Advance = Gameboy Advance.

FFTA is a completely different games based on the ps1 original rather than a port. it's not really as good either.

This is exactly what McCloud talks about when he describes the "masking effect" in comics. Note that with very few exceptions, protagonists and their motives are almost always portrayed in much less detail than the villains. This has the nice effect of alienating the audience from the villain, and avoiding similar cognitive hiccups with the hero.

It also brings up a completely impertinent point about Osamu Tezuka's works - he really likes to feature antiheroes who defy the masking effect in order to get you to empathize with them! cf. certain characters wearing sunglasses all the time cropping up again and again.

When I first played Earthbound (at age 9, I think), I named Ness after me, and Paula after my brother (just to insult him). It got awkward when I realized that they fell in love in the game.

-- C('ing on)urt1sss (curtis.stephens@gmail.com), February 2nd, 2005 5:12 PM. (Curtis Stephens)

site

i think it was linked from insertcredit

xxpostss

Which brings the question = is there a sense of vitality in heavily pixelated, limited-palette video games that fades away as the graphics and sound become more and more polished (expensive-looking)?

Also if someone would like to delete that post from last weekend when I was tanked out of my skull and somehow still typing, that would be heaven. Gah.

With simpler hardware & graphics, you have to focus more on the abstract. you have to put more emphasis on the gameplay & design-within-limitations since you can't as easily wow the crowds with a bloom-lit, fog-surrounded, realtime fully-rendered drow elf chick with big gazoombas. (etc)

Maybe that's what they're aiming for in the Revolution; Emphasis on gameplay & design over getting a slightly shinier sheen projected on a lump of shit on the floor of Doom 4.

We'll see.

It ties in maybe a little bit with whatever "rogueism" shapes up to be, in my mind - there's this identification with the character borne not just out of empathy built via "mistakes translate 100%"* but just because "this generic-looking avatar could be ME" (more interesting and complicated, when you consider Dan's & Laura's input about character naming and design)

(then you think about how Spinktor, cozen, et al. all really seem to dig Earthbound above and beyond all else - hmmmm)

Whether the Revo actually goes in this direction, we'll see. I tend to figure Nintendo has a better grasp of the whole masking effect concept better than a lot of other folks by and large, though on the face of it Master Chief is probably easier to imagine as an extension of self (faceless warrior) than Mario (mustachioed plumber)

*which I can tell is a big factor for our Jdubz

Who wants to bring "Hero with a Thousand Faces" into this?

Hmm.

I didn't know where else to put this. INTERESTING!!! Also SCOTT MCCLOUD REFERENCE = AWESOME THANK YOU

CONFLICTED EMOTIONS (anyone played it?)

fire emblem for gc is kind of a weird proposition for me, for some reason these games work much better in my head as portable things.