What was the concensus on the "I really fancy a friend of mine but don't want to mess up my friendship by asking her out" question again?

Ahem.

YES: 2
NO: 4

The no's have it by the looks of things.

also - what d'you actually mean by "ask her out"? If you hang out a lot anyway, might she not actually realise she's being "asked out" as such? This has happened to me a lot of late, and the results have been comically confusing.

It kind of depends on how well you know the person as well - if its someone you're just becoming friends I reckon that makes things easier, and the fallout won't be nearly as bad if things don't end up as you've hoped. If you're not especially close friends it might either drive a wedge between you or bring you close together even if it doesn't have the desired effect. There's really no hard and fast rule.

if, by 'asking her out', you mean just hang out normally and at some point try to make some smooth move and kiss her-- don't. awkwardness awaits you. and maybe a slap in the face.

but if you said something (like 'i think you're cute, want to go on a date?') first, that gives her time to think about it and agree or disagree.

(xpost-- and matt, aren't you glad you at least KNOW now?)

Johnney B, by the looks of your email address, you're English, right?

Americans on this thread take note - English people don't date! There's barely such a concept. English people "hang out with mates", and "do stuff in the same place at the same time", til at some point, both parties are somehow separated from the rest of the group - at the bar/jukebox/fag machine/etc - drunk and susceptible enough to take the plunge and do domething rash and ill-conceived like go in for the kiss, in the vain hope that a. it'll be reciprocated, or b. if it isn't, it'll be put down to experience/inebriation and everything'll be fine in the morning.

dating is good. english people should do it more.

(xpost with ronan: true. have you been thinking about this for a while? or is it just something you're considering slightly? more details please)

The time before that we went out for four months - but that happened more from the sort of scenario Charlie describes rather than a "hey, I have a bit of a thing for you" situation. It all depends on how serious your feelings are.

Alternatively, here are a number of approaches you could try.

This happened to me once. At least you will find out what she's really like. Rather that than wondering "what if".

If however you just want a fuck, then forget it.

andrew, that is the cutest conversation ever. what was the result?

(herbie, are you actually my little brother? that used to be his nickname when we were kids...)

"if by working out you mean smoking a pack a day and sitting on my fat ass"-strongo

Haha Colette, was this anything like our tube journey from Balham to Highbury after the comedy?

could he at least prepare with some 'i kinda have a crush on you' conversations?

Do people actually say things like that to each other after the age of 12? I mean, I can imagine confiding in a friend that I fancy another friend, but actually walking up to someone, locking their gaze and saying "I weally weally godda cwush on yooouuu" makes me want to disappear into a hole in the ground - not becauee I don't have the confidence to express my feelings towards someone, but just...all the terminology sounds so fuckin' stupid!

dating is good. english people should do it more.

I think you're probably right. I've been on one actual date in my life, five years ago - I was so intrigued at having been asked, and so flattered that someone would actually bother to single me out of the melee of people surrounding us, that I simply said "sure" without even thinking about it. Naturally, being English, we went on a pub crawl of Upper Street...

I know traditionally we've been rather more haphazard about the whole friendship/relationship divide and rely on alcohol to cover the cracks, but isn't there something of a sea change going on?

I've been told this is the case, only last night in fact. I dunno, dating all seems so clinical and contrived and cold and hard and...dead, somehow. I kinda prefer the random, chaos-theory aspects of The English Way - it somehow seems more "romantic" (sic) to leave meetings/dalliances to chance to some extent, rather than ruthlessly engineering a "this is the bit where we're meant to kiss or something" moment.

i can say with confidence that any of my english friend girls would be really excited to be asked on a date. especially if it was to somewhere other than the pub.

Of course! But therein lies the problem. It's not just confined to girls, y'know?

Also, if I go on a date with someone, I might end up "dating" them, and once againm I'm lost in some weird 1950s American netherworld full of Proms and "going steady" and friendship rings and the word "dreamboat" and basically a load of other stuff I learnt from "Heathers" and "Back To The Future"...

BRITISH PEOPLE DO GO ON DATES YOU MORANS. But we've covered this before.

see? confirmation that i SUCK at small talk. and considering that it was more than 5 minutes, i should have introduced you to the crying girl or something!

ok. i want to reply to this more. but i'm going to go learn how to do italics first. i think it's time.

Colette: you used to call your brother "Herbie 4000". How bizarre. Is he a little fucked up now?

Who was this Charlie?

But with HSA and I, there was never a "just friends" stage first, he made it obvious from the first meeting what his intentions were.

he's not fucked up. he's a good kid.

(you're not him, right? i can keep telling embarrassing stories about my love life?)

1) three years taken off my life.
2) one more character building story.
3) "I'm not really looking for someone right now", leading to 18 months of awkwardness before a rephrased question reveals that if she was, it wouldn't be me.
4) "humourous" postmortem worthy of The Office.

Also if you are going to ask someone out, I would advise having something else to do that you can crash and walk away from if necessary. Don't go round to their flat just to do so, because Miss Manners is strangely silent on how long you're supposed to hang around for afterwards.

(italics are <I> to start and </I> to stop)

From the ILX dating advice archive, kindly linked to above:

White Men Who Exclusively Date Asian Women
In this thread, Sarah keeps everyone up to date with her/Link's adventures in Hyrule
American date format - why, god, why?
SO YOU CAN DRINK YOUR OWN URINE ON A DATE!!!!
Could I have a Big Mac, regular fries and a date?

And my personal favourite,

did Ned get lucky ?

On my first date I ended up in Lewisham Hospital. We went out for a year after that.

i think there's a big difference between 'ruthlessly engineering' something and making your intentions somewhat clearer.

Of course! But therein lies the problem. It's not just confined to girls, y'know?

you don't need to tell me this. i assume you're making the point that with traditional dating, all responsability is left to the guy? this so doesn't happen. especially here, but even in america, i am consistently the person to initiate things with guys. so i do understand how hard it is to ask someone out/tell them you like them/make the first move, because i am always the one to do it.

and basically a load of other stuff I learnt from "Heathers"

indication of how fucked up i am that when i read that i thought 'wow, what a fantastic textbook for relationships that is!'

HSA asked me on An Actual Date

aww. such a good story! and it still makes you feel all warm and fuzzy, right?

Matt should legally change his name to Datey Datington, it's the greatest name ever.

ha ha OMG THEY PUT SEX BEFORE KISSING

this supports my argument for asking people out in a clear, datey, kind of way.

i also think we should define key terms.

They have a handy mnemonic with first base, second base etc that gets rid of that problem. Just like all their shoes have a L and an R on the top that only they can see.

i've never remembered what's between first base and home plate, so that one hasn't worked for me. and there is nothing wrong with not learning left from right...

Home Run = 4th Base = "going all the way"

And a diagram, in a ballroom dancing/american football sort of way. "I will be opening the first door for you, but I won't be hurrying past you to open the second one"

i don't think i've thought of 'french kissing' in years.

(xpost--matt, that sounds really gross. i'm glad i didn't grow up here)

i understand baseball better now having seen it first hand recently. Cricket still sucks all manner of waxed balls tho.

i think we should start with 'date'.

"An engagement to go out socially with another person, often out of romantic interest." is what dictionary.com says.

similar to my probably misremembered cynthia heimel quote that it is a 'pre-arranged meeting of people with sexual intent.'

agree? disagree?

(xpost-- steve, your 'stealth date' sounds like what english people say happens here. that's just the part that happens before the drunken lunging, right?)

Is it fair to say there are also financial connotations attached to the word "date" that would not necessarily be attached to any other outing? Not that going dutch isn't a perfectly acceptable state of affairs in London 2004-stylee, but...well, is it possible to go on a date to someone's house and, y'know, just hang out and watch a DVD or whatever's on telly or something, due to a crippling lack of funds? It all seems a bit adolescent...

But of course! Like I say, I've only been on one actual date in my life (her name was Mel, we're still friends even though it ended years ago - since you asked, Herbie!), so to be honest I'm not sure what you're meant to do...

Oddly, our whole house had a discussion about dates last night, and we came to the conclusion that standard practice is that you meet someone while out with friends, fancy them, cleverly engineer another meeting while out with whichever friend is a friend of the person concerned, spend all night flirting ineptly, if flirting succeeds then arrange to meet some other time, or if you're already somewhere it's possible to spend the night together (sex not necessarily obligatory), then do so - and if you actually really like each other after that, spend the next day being hungover together - at which point you find out what they're *really* like...

We should celebrate those who go on dates for having the balls to actually ask that question - "Will you go out with me?" - rather than, slumped in the corner after a crushingly boring party, just gradually nudging up to them over the course of eight hours until there's nowehere else to put your tongues. The English way.

God Bless America!

Last time I tried that method Charlie she vomitted all over my bed. When we did the hanging out whilst hungover bit I decided I didn't like vomit in my bed.

thanks, pete. i just had to spend a while not choking because i took a sip of water just before reading this. such a great statement.

the english version described by charlie reminds me of university 'dating', when you meet a friend of a friend, end up making out and staying over, and then you're 'a thing.'

this freaks me out. mostly because it ends up with implied commitment right from the beginning.

(I thought Andrew F. was an incredibly great feller before, now I think even more highly of him for having to suffer through those struggles with date etiquette!)

It's the stiff upper lip, dear boy. Needs a bit of loosening up first or it doesn't half get in the way of the old tonsil hockey, what?

haha this happened to me all the time at uni, but much more in Germany - maybe further evidence that We do Things Different Round Here?

I remember going out clubbing/gigging in Hamburg aged 21, meeting cute German girls, copping off at some point in the evening and then discovering, a week later, that I'm apparently going out with them...now *that's* scary.

Obviously, all these parameters change with age, but the above scenario has struck fear into my soul ever since. Like, how do you know what they're thinking?

..ooh, boys and girls, they're, like, from different planets and stuff...

I'm starting to warm to this more official "this-is-a-date-and-you-will-act-accordingly" scenario now!

xpost no Steve, Huey was no doubt being very serious about the English cultural booze-malaise.

I'm starting to warm to this more official "this-is-a-date-and-you-will-act-accordingly" scenario now!

what's the appropriate behavior, then? we haven't clarified that point yet.

another good thing about going on dates...it leads to 'dating' (which charlie has mentioned in the weird film context), which is less serious and more fun and potentially less confusing than 'becoming a thing,' which is what happens a lot over here.

(xpost-- i impressed someone with what, apparently, looked like breakdancing. i can't breakdance. therefore, this confused me)

Rent or buy every single episode of Ally McBeal, Sex and the City, Ellen, Will & Grace and Friends. Watch them all, paying very close attention to all the girl-to-girl (or girl-to-gay man) chats. You should find everything you need to know there.

If it doesn't work at least you'll have laughed at least twice and will have spent several days _not_ posting relationship questions on the Internet. This is A Good Thing

luv'n'hugs
Uncle Onimo

This date question is far more interesting, mind.

but the date thing is also very interesting.

The appropriate behaviour, from where I'm sitting and having read this thread with interest, is as follows:

1. have a crush on someone/start fancying someone
2. tell them you have a crush on them/fancy them, and that it'd be great if they a. felt the same way already or b. think they might be able to feel the same way, given a little persuasion
3. persuade them by either a. taking them somewhere nice/interesting, or b. going out for drinks and hoping the requisite inhibition-relaxing properties of alcohol help the conversation along the way
4. retreat to a safe distance and see what happens

Not sure if number 2 can be effectively carried out by txt in this modern age, but I bet people do it.

xpost-- charlie is on the ball. keep up the good work!

interesting. i never would have considered the element of persuasion involved.

so, is number 4 (no pun intended) the difference between dating behavior and 'hooking up'?

5. Throw all dignity aside and tell them that at the very least you eat pussy like a champ.

or is that just me overanalyzing the situation?

(xpost-- brilliant, kate. and dan, i figure that any guy who has to brag about how good he is just ISN'T. this may not be the case all the time, but it is most of the time)

I think you've got that the wrong way around!

which could be good or bad.

while the english way (intentionally leaving out the others in the brit thing-- dating one welsh guy was crazy enough) leaves everything to chance and it's all down to whether there's chemistry and darkness and a bed.

is that oversimplifying things too much? it isn't that i hate the english way-- i've been here long enough that i'm kind of used to it. and, to be honest, didn't go on that many dates in the states. i just prefer the date thing, i think.

I think perhaps we've done this to death now...nobody's answered the text question tho!

i think it can be done with text...flirting by text seems safe (even though it really isn't, because what is said is then IN WRITING and more permanent) and so telling someone you like them by text seems a natural extension.

although to answer you directly, you can't do that because you already said you'd feel dumb telling someone you have a crush on them!

you're clearly not looking closely enough! i have guest bands all the time...at least, that's why i go to gigs a lot. hmmm, maybe that doesn't count.

"Oh my god, I laughed at her joke, she's gonna think I like her. Let me make sure not to do that next time."

"Oh my god, I said hello to her, she's going to think that's rather upfront and flirtatious, I'll make sure not to do that next time."

"oh my god, I invited her to hang out with me, she's going to think it's a date, I'll make sure not to do that next time."

By the time you're finished all you'll have left to do is sit and masturbate to mental images of them in the privacy of your own home.

amongst people i know in nyc, this is the only way that things happen. where in the states is all this dating taking place? i can think of like two people who have been on an actual date in recent memory. hmm.. does going out for brunch the morning after drunken shenanigans to see if you get along count as a date?

IT'S THE GREATEST!

but also, please see my remark above about not actually going on that many real dates when i was in the states. i think i just really like the idea of simplifying things.

and it probably comes down to freaking out about accidentally ending up in relationships more than anything else.

Erm, excuse me, I'm sorry to be rude, but you appear to have fallen onto my penis.

i'm trying to think of the last time i went on a real date.. 2001, maybe?

xpost-- matt, that's not what i'm talking about! it's the thing where you wake up with someone (and didn't even necessarily *sleep* with them) and suddenly you're a couple. no discussion, no easing into things. it just freaks me out.

"Would you mind, you know, bouncing up and down a bit? And maybe calling me daddy? Oh I'm sorry, was that a bit much? All right, let's just stick with the bouncing, then."

and i was much, much nicer to you all the day after than usual.

uh oh. is this drunken slush puppy confessions coming back to haunt me again?

Well personally, and I can't speak for any other people, the times when most of the friendships I'd made began becoming more than just climbing trees or playing football in the park were was when we started going out drinking.

If this is how all the main non family relationships in your life are formed then it's no wonder this is how you intend to meet prospective lovers.

friendships with girls wrecked from me thinking it might be 'on' when in fact it wasn't : 0

fckng DO IT.

Does anyone here dance better when drunk? Cause sometimes I seem to.

(It needs a little updating.)

xpost-- yes! kate, you sounded SO CANADIAN on saturday!

As for the asking out a friend thing, I did this once in the first year of uni and she turned me down, saying she'd probably cheat on me. I thought fair enough, as she was a bit of a tart half the time (she slept with my good friend and next-door neighbour, tho' to be fair, he fucked every girl in the 1st year, more or less). However, once her annoying tendencies started to really show (incessant banging on about herself, who she was shagging, falsely accusing me of being rude to her boyfriend once), I thought it a real mercy to find outr friendship deteriorated rapidly over the following 2 years.

None of this obliterates the sad fact that I met someone 100 times more wonderful 2 years ago, only she comes with a boyfriend who I can't remove from the equation and thereby ask her out. Probably doesn't help that we've been on separate continents since 2 summers ago.

That's not fair! What if dude is trying to "build up the reservoir" in order to make the first encounter more "magical" (ie, sticky)?

My dancing gets better the more everyone else drinks, hence Colette's being impressed at my attempt at 'the worm' being connected to the fact that it was last thing on the last night at ATP.

As I said upthread, some people, like the guy who finished with my friend after two dates cos he "didn't want to rip her clothes off", seem to think an utterly overwhelming lustful attraction is VITAL to a burgeoning relationship, but personally I reckon that kinda gets in the way of how you really feel about them.

In conclusion...er...if you *really* fancy them, then...oh I don't bloody know obviously.

Hmmm. Perhaps it's a great way to think if you get that overwhelming lustful thing on a fairly regular basis, but what if you never do? Or what if you *always* so? These sorts of emotions are only useful if they're distinct to how you usually feel in some way innit!

A friend advised me once that if I fancy someone, I should just ask them to dinner. Any thoughts, ILX?

Under the circumstances, being on different continents probably does help.

Yeah, but it doesn't when I go back to uni and hang with her or do crazy things like phone her up from 3000 miles away just to say "Hey" (because an e-mail wouldn't have been enough, oh no).

Having said that, she really liked the phone call.

Yes, I've had lots of actual dates - I may even start doing so again shortly.

Mr Smee gave me a lift home from work then came right out and told me how much he liked me (in great detail) and he really wanted to see more of me, it had never happened to me and I was gobsmacked and went several shades of scarlet before thinking, hmmmm, I like this direct approach....We then arranged a meeting, got drunk together several times and THEN had a proper real life date, at his suggestion.

But, to answer the orig question - you HAVE to ask. IMO once you've decided you're in crush/lust with her the agony of *carrying on as friends* is worse than rejection. But wait.... you MIGHT NOT BE TURNED DOWN!!

x-post - unless she's taken already (though seriously, I ALWAYS think I should just tell her), but enough about me. That's otm, Dr.

This is a short-term problem that is best ignored.

Ov course I don't do any of this anymore, having lovely wife and all that.

i don't think the other person will stop being friends with you just because you asked him/her out. as long as you're not too over the top with your advances.

What happens to Jel after nightfall? Some kind of Teenwolf type situation, I'll warrant.

Haha dates are rubbish if you just want a shag. Actually, even if you really do care about the other person's mind and soul but are sexually frustrated, you'll cock it up in some way, probably with a horrible drunken lunge scene. So: do as Ben Stiller does in There's Something About Mary and have a preparatory relaxing wank.

strikes me as otm. as does the entirety of that post, sadly

i thought sexual frustration was all about cocking up anyway.

Farrell is showing off, with all his talk of... dates.

Heavens no.