Liverpool won't win the Premiership 2005-2006

Chelsea
Man Utd
Arsenal
Liverpool
Middlesbro
Bolton
Tottenham
Man City
Fulham
Birmingham
Everton
Newcastle
Aston Villa
Charlton
Blackburn
Portsmouth
West Ham
Sunderland
West Brom
Wigan

Souness
Hughes
O'Leary
Coleman
Moyes (lured elsewhere?)
whoever is managing Portsmouth these days

Projected points margin between 1st and 5th in my table: 39

Everton and Newcastle will be affected by having to play in Europe so early. And, Everton seem to have trouble signing anyone.

xpost, ah, never mind

It seems more likely to me that it will be Everton who will be unable to capitalise on last year's success...but I don't have much to base that on other than how much of a surprise it was last season. I don't think there are many people who expect them to finish in the top 5 this time, just because.

Oh, I reckon Chris Coleman could be the first manager to go. Birmingham could be a surprise as they have a lot of strikers and money. Spurs may just be wishful thinking.

I have a feeling it could all go a bit wrong for Fulham this time round, Southampton style. This years surprise package = Blackburn, definitely. They'll kick every team off the park and draw 0-0 with all the big boys. Everton looked more than a bit limp towards the end of last season. Man Utd? Depends on Owen I suppose but otherwise they'll be worse than last year. Spurs, with a bigger squad, no nasty Santini-Jol transition phase and Edgar Davids will nick fifth. Charlton to be top six at Christmas and collapse afterwards, as normal. Definitely Souness or Coleman to go first.

jel also otm re middlesbrough, massively complacent at end of last season, something is clearly not right there. defence is probly past it, midfield besides downing (sometimes) is uninspired, hasselbaink meh.

portsmouth to hover midtable but be untroubled by relegation for the most part

man city without barton and dunne to begin with might start very badly indeed.

second best performing striker in the Premiership statistically last season no? plus they have Yakubu now.

UH HUH.

which statistics wd those be, opta? it could even be true. i still don't fancy em much - when things go their way they will wax it but they will give up just as often.

B-but you won one 14-0!

I won't bother doing the table, cos it'll just be a case of stacking up as many half-decent teams above Liverpool as I can reasonably get away with and then tucking Everton in there too.

I do think it's possible that the ManYoo-RedFilth gap may vaporise this season. No change in the top two. Pompey to go down.

I'm kinda glad that we're not prepared to meet various players' outrageous wage-demands or even gloss over their dubious fitness (hello, Forssell) in order to bolster the squad, but this admirable caution doesn't leave us any stronger than we've been since Gravesen's departure. Lest we forget...21pts from the second half of 04-05. Erk.

i knwe dunne got involved with barton, but i didnt know it was to an extent where he'd be missing opening games?

What part of 'Pardew keen on Togo forward' do you think will stop us scoring goals? You wait, Yossi Benayoun will take the league by storm. Then move to Chelsea in the January transfer window.

All this at a bargain price of £645 for a season ticket.

aha! (so those goals were penalties... that's new, for me.)

Since signing James Collins, we had to let Steve Lomas go. EU Regulations = one ginger per team.

I shall defile your pets. Do you really think Wigan or Sunderland or even Wet Brom have stronger teams?

I'm under no illusions about this year, but I think we've made better signings. We're still a decent striker short of safety, but we will get one in because we have about £6m to fritter.

Baros, I dunno. Cute and yeah, yeah, Euro 2004. But I tend to think of him as the Czeck Zamora.

We missed out on Robinho, I see.

What's the deadline for signing players so that they're eligible for European competition? Are there different deadlines for CL qual, CL grp-stage (haha, just kidding), UEFA r1, etc?

(Spurs top 5? Liverpool top 2?)

B-but you won one 14-0!

Against some Swedish village team. Great, the Champions' League it is then!

West Ham are definitely going down. They've got the poorest squad and the worst manager of any Premiership team in recent memory. I've got a tenner on Pardew to be the first managerial casualty of the season.

Spurs are in a very good position, and it's not even started yet (this might be why).

Chelsea
Arsenal
Liverpool
Man Utd
Spurs
Middlesboro
Newcastle
Everton
Birmingham
Charlton
Aston Villa
Bolton
Man City
Portsmouth
Blackburn
West Ham
WBA
Fulham
Sunderland
Wigan

Sander Westervelt ex Liverpool Goalie signed from Spanish club
Gregory Vignal ex Liverpool Squad player was on loan to Rangers last season
Andy O' Brien - ex Newcastle Centre Back/ Republic of Ireland international
John Viafara - Colombian Midfield General 6 ft 2 plays like Patrick Viera
Laurent Robert - from Newcastle left wing
Karadas - signed on loan from Benefica - Norwegian International 23 year old 6ft 3 striker
Collins Mbesuma - signed from South African club where he scored 35 goals last season, Zambian International

Like a New Signing: Mornar back from loan in France, converted to Right Wing showing some form pre-season

2 More signings promised: probably both in Midfield, one attacking central midfielder, and probably right sided midfielder

blimey, where did he pop up from?

hello martin :)

can i take this opportunity to remind those of you that haven't joined up yet, but would like to:

Fantasy Football League 05/06

im unsure about bolton paper thin squad, and man city are an unknown quantity *again*.

Do you really think a midfield comprising ex-players from Yeovil, Bournemouth and Wimbledon is not equipped for the Premiership?

Found ILX from a link on S*n*ster, just starting to get the hang of the place. I've signed up for the Fantasy Footy, will pick my team at lunch time.

Anyway, yes it is Confidence. I already told him that Man City story. We were gonna go to a soccer store on Chain Bridge Rd that stocks many jerseys but he bailed on me.

OK, I will talk to him about Michael Essien!

Bollocks to the rest of you!

By the time we are relegated to the third tier, it will be known as the Pepsi Fantastic League and no-one will remember how the hierarcy works.

bwahahaha

Will fans express surprise at the game ending without sufficient added time? (weak link to rubbish joke)

It means Health, you know.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40664000/jpg/_40664290_makpa.jpg

I hope MOTD is on a bit earlier, I had to go to bed before the Lawro View.

Boo.

I didn't like the pre-recorded ANALYSIS bits at all.

Beyond that I can't really remember very much at all.

This is perhaps the major difference between this season and last season.

Keywords: Plucky Wigan, Champions-elect Chelsea

The worst thing about Chiles' jokes is that they are pretty much exactly the same as the ones Kevin Day was doing last season ("This woman at Fratton Park, she thinks she's seen a truck, and she's thinking 'Oh, that's a nice truck', and then she's realised, hang on, that's a van. Y'see, and now she's embarrassed") except delivered by Adrian Chiles. And Kevin Day is still employed on this programme and is still awful ("Do you support Sunderland, son?" "Yeah." "Yes, you do. Good on you.") Its attempts at lightheartedness are painful, where MOTD's attempts are verging on the unpleasant. Long hard season ahead, then (no, I still haven't seen The Championship yet).

I thought MOTD2 was good. Le Sox and Bob weer good, and it was great to see Bob back where he always belonged. And Adrian Chiles finally pointed out to the world that Terry Henry is a sour-faced bastard.

i really can't have been watching the same programme as you. i generally like chiles, but last night was terrible. kevin day needsto be (permanently) removed for the public good. i think they miss strachan, who provided some analysis, and a light-hearrtedness that didn't feel forced. did graeme le saux say *anything* remotely interesting?

BUT - otherwise, people's comments on MOTD2 are, are very - very accurate, very accurate indeed. Graham Le Saux is, Graham Le Saux - is, not contributing much, Kevin Day is as Swygart said he is (good post, Swygart), and Adrian Chiles, Adrian Chiles is, is floundering. I appreciate that this, this repetitive repetitive tic, may irritate, may irritate some who can be bothered to read through it, and naturally, naturally it takes me, takes *me* longer to write than usual, but it feels, feels necessary on this, on this occasion because Chiles was, was *even more* afflicted with it, with last night, than, than last season.

Surely, though, the real bad news is the absence of suits on MOTD. Their casual demotion to sports-casual is criminal: it upset me on Saturday night; it is as though another part of my life is crumbling away, when I have backed it for so long against all comers. I think that a standard thought on the suit is proven here: that it gives a little touch of authority to those who are in need of it; and I think that those MOTD fellows need it, now. Woefully, the Guardian's sport-on-TV writer has said that the eschewal of suits is the one good thing about it!

Also, as others including Alba have said, the filmed analysis stuff was relatively tripe. I switch off, mentally not literally, at those points, whereas I have always paid such attention to the live interchanges. (Unlike some posters above, I actually have videos made up only of MOTD analysis, with no action!!)

So the new season has started very badly, and I am back to wondering whether it is coming to an end between me and football. For I have not even mentioned Robbie Keane yet.

Communications Assistant

Organisation: Everton Football Club
Location: Merseyside
Date posted: 13 Aug 05
Closing date: 29 Aug 05

Job description
Everton Football Club is about to embark on one of the most exciting seasons in its history with European football beckoning. With a history dating back to 1878, the club has rich traditions and boasts one of the most dedicated groups of supporters in the country.

We are looking for a media/journalism graduate to become an integral part of our website/communications team. The successful candidate will be expected to write non-football and football-related content for evertonfc.com and other EFC publications where appropriate. A key part of this role is to develop the PR coverage of the business side of the Club to ensure we feature in all areas of local press and not just on the sports pages. Additional responsibilities will also include the development and editorial content of our staff newsletter.

'European football beckoning'

Lawro's knitwear appears to be borrowed off his mum.

Exactly the kind of positive thinking The Nun needs to foster.

Has Baros moved, then?

A little bird tells me that not only are LFC in for little Michael, they may also get... Jonathan Woodgate!

Robinson

Robinson

-- the bellefox (pinefo...), August 16th, 2005 5:25 PM. (later)

PF, they don't even have real *people* on Scotsport SPL. They have a cardboard cut out audience, for God's sake.

Therefore your idea is grebt, but we must have the power to suspend time to enable it to happen = Linker /= Clarissa the teenage witch or Evie from Out of this World.

MOTD is fantastic by comparison. Stop yer moaning.

Hang on, it must be something to do with contract only having a year to run last year, etc.

Woodgate has been playing with the juniors, or something. I once saw Real Madrid juniors, they behaved exactly like adults, and not in a good way.

Ask Hugh Dallas sounds fantastic.

I still say that if they wear ties on that Scottish programme, you should count yerselves lucky.

FAN 1: Take your library books back, you slack-jawed recidivist!
DD: Come on, I was slightly off-balance! At least I pop up in the right places - sign of a good striker.
FAN 2: Good point well made. Are you still interested in my Ektorp sofa? Come back later if you score and we'll swap mobile numbers.

After the goal:

DD: Yesss! I'll have that bloody sofa and the anglepoise lamp I saw in your study if there's no room for it in the new bungalow.
FAN 1: It went in off your shin! Fan 2, list them on eBay - home furnishing bargains are wasted on this profligate narcissist.
FAN 2: Don't listen to him, Didz. Here's my brother-in-law's business card - he can do decking as well. My number's on the back. Champions!

(PJM will notice I did the above in D****e labelling style.)

Was it this bloke?
http://scotsport.scottishtv.co.uk/content/default.asp?page=s1_1_1

Archie McPherson
is a very strange person
Jim Delahunt
we've got a rhyme for you

in the middle of hand-wringing piece on Guardian Unlimited

http://football.guardian.co.uk/news/thewayyouseeit/0,9206,1555466,00.html

"Only a month or so ago, I had the fortune of meeting a guy in a pub by the name of Dave Boyle. Dave works for Supporters Direct, and over the space of about an hour restored quite a lot of my faith in football."

???

Naturally, he was in a pub.

Manchester City are top, just when Mark Radcliffe is on holiday.

Tottenham could manage a draw at Blackburn tonight.

Liverpool won't win the Premiership 2005-6 if their results and performances are like last night's.

Robbie Keane and Pedro Mendes back in Spurs starting line-up at Blackburn!

Fulham holding Arsenal 1-1!

Kate Rusby on Mike Harding's Radio2 show!

Oh, perhaps that belongs on another thread.

Three clean sheets in a row for Spurs? Is it all down to Gardner?

I think Essien's dummy was a mistake. Perhaps it was just a very good dummy.

Hansen - "To rotate, you've got to be great." I wish he'd followed this statement up with a quick swivel on his chair.

I missed two Arsenal goal because I was miles away.

Please, the MOTD budget does not extend to swivellers. I imagine Hansen's rump to be as firm as Goodwood after so many years perched on a rubber stool.

S.E.N. was therefore a term I'd hear a lot as a child, it stands for "special educational needs".

Whenever I hear Mr. Essien's name mentioned, I hear "S.E.N." and it sounds like some sort of playground insult.

NB: This post has been written despite a dreadful fear that I am ignorantly using language which is outdated and in some way offensive to somebody, hence the absurd overuse of speech marks. If I am, I am sorry.

I thought they said 'LULA', not 'Luna'; it is all about South American politics.

Little Keane captained us to 0-0!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/eng_prem/4184994.stm

"I reckon if Owen went to Newcastle he could help get them into the top six" - LTL

Newcastle have completed the signing of England striker Michael Owen from Real Madrid for a club record £17m.
The 25-year-old has penned a four-year deal with the Magpies.

The whole thing (i.e. the last 12 months) has been daft.

I hope that Shearer scores some goals, now.

I don't understand about the 31 games.

Matt DC will explain.

Apparently LFC look like they might get Simao from Benfica. I was delighted to read on the internet that he is a real live wizard!

Winger Simao Sabrosa, who Benfica bought from Barcelona during the summer, has sorcerer’s feet and a fiendish mind – he can turn snooty defenders into toads with a simple flick of his foot.

31 games = Chelsea's unbeaten run against Spurs in the league?

SPURS' LAST BLUES WIN
Chelsea 1-2 Spurs (10/02/1990)

* Chelsea: Beasant, C Wilson, Clarke, Dorigo, Roberts, Johnsen, Bumstead, McAllister, Nicholas, Dixon, K Wilson
Scorer: Bumstead
* Tottenham: Thorstvedt, Hughton, Van den Hauwe, Polston, Howells, Mabbutt, Walsh (Moran), Gascoigne, Nayim, Lineker (Moncur), Sedgley
Scorers: Howells, Lineker
* Attendance: 28,130

After the thrashing in Bucharest and the 7-0 last season, plus Everton one from bottom, this looks so like a home banker and a thrashing that Everton will probably win it.

Arse, ManYoo, Fulham (where we never win), the third best team in Spain (twice) and one of the strongest sides in UEFA r1 - you can kinda see how we would lose so many of our early fixtures. Only the dismal slump to Pompey and the scale of Thursday's collapse are really beyond the pale. I still expect/hope (is there a term for something precisely halfway between?) us to be mid-table or better by the time we go to Old Trafford in mid-December.

I wish they would score loads of goals together, especially Keane.

Everton's 8 competitive games so far this season.

Everton 0-2 Man Utd
Everton 1-2 Villareal
Bolton 0-1 Everton
Villareal 2-1 Everton
Fulham 1-0 Everton
Everton 0-1 Portsmouth
Dinamo Bucharest 5-1 Everton
Arsenal 2-0 Everton

David Moyes' signings since January 1st 2005

£6.5 million Jimmy Beattie. Fat lazy and always injured, completely unsuited to playing 4-5-1
£3.5 Million Phil Neville to make a key player out of the most stand in of stand ins ever
£4 million for Simon Davies. Always injured
£5 million for Per Kroldrup injured
£3 million for Arteta a player who looks too lightweight for the Premiership.
£1.8 million for always injured van der Meyde
£1.5 million for always injured Nuno Valente

That's £25 million on 7 players and every one of them looks like a terrible terrible mistake.

As I said on the other thread, the irony of getting cold feet over Forssell and Parker cos of their medical histories and then signing a bunch of crocks anyway is almost too much to bear. Oh, and then there's the fact that they came for European football and by the time they're in back training there won't be any. May as well stay injured. Harry Kewell can offer tips.

Sorry, Spurs fans. I know what it's like - Grimsby beat Everton twice in the League Cup in the '80s. Oh, the fish jokes at school. School, fish. DYS? I wonder if Miller switched off the World Service at half-time tonight in disgust. He won't believe us.

At least Carrick's injury gives MENDES a window of opportunity, which Jol will probably shut asap.

Today's paper notes that Jenas lacks the pace to run past players, and doesn't score goals. Yes ... that's an £8 million player.

"Everyone blames me because I've got a really big face. Well fuck em, we've got the classiest long throw merchant in the league."

Or something.

Why should I have been turning off the World Service at half time? Have I missed something? Perhaps just as well. I did buy a new-look Guardian (no colour in the colonies!) only to find that West Ham had won 4-0.

I went to see our old friend Kezman playing for Atletico Madrid. They lost well into injury time, ha ha! It was good.

I think we're just trying to break a few records - like how last year was the best start since 69-70 and this year totally trumps that by being the worst start for 50 years or something. Bring back Mike Walker (so we can sack him and kick-start the revival).

We totally deserved the draw with Arsenal, if anyone cares.

Raziak looks like a bit of a clogger though.

Ah, Fulham.

The Pinefox is still wrong about Mido - he can hold the ball up, pass, run and run and run and is the best partner for either Defoe or Keane (I'm starting to think they should be rotated, keep them hungry). Almost scored a great goal today as well.

I hate JJ, I can't even pretend any more. I like Pedro Mendes though. And Lee Young-Pyo.

Guardian report today dropped odd hints about Levy's influence and Jol not really buying the players he wanted. Something's not right, for me.

Did Mendes PLAY?? That would be good news.

(PS / naturally I didn't see the game: Dylan was on.)

Defoe is a better striker that Keane but I would happily see him dropped to the bench for a few games if it means we get to keep Robbie. Mido definitely looks better than Kanoute in 'don't really fancy it today' mode, which was most of the time towards the end. Time will tell though.

however, at the moment, spurs are more interesting than liverpool, though not as interesting as bolton of course

jenas i dont really understand the point of. nevertheless, spurs have, for once, a lot of potential, and it will be interesting to see how it pans out, though, of course, they could really do with players of the calibre of dioufy, nolan and the underrated davies

sheffield united will be making an appearance on liverpool won't win the premiership 2006-2007 by the looks of things, won't they?

I did not watch Dylan - I am going to get it on a DVD which will remian unwatched on a shelf for years.

Today's page 3 bird is Bobby Zamora's girlfriend. Back of the net, etc.

That poor quality joke seems strangely unfinished.

DC, that is LAME, from a bright lad like you.

I saw a little snippet of "How Much Is That Doggie In The Window" and I knew it would be all downhill from there.
-- PJ Miller (pjmiller6...), September 28th, 2005.

That is fair comment, in a way: because it is a sign of lazy rockism and dull assumptions of 'bad straight America', you mean? That's what I thought, anyway.

I liked the discussion about what the thread was about.

But meanwhile: what a result for those Spurs! 2-0 down at 2nd-placed club: come back to 2-3, with winner from ... little Robbie Keane!! I have to say that's magnificent.

I will Report Back when I watch it on a DVD disc. I hope there is direct doggie access.

Spurs proved perky.

Meanwhile, I believe Chelsea deserve more respect.

Watching the goals on the Rob Bonnet show this morning, I noticed that they were all much of a muchness, similar to the point of near-identicalism. This suggests that something is wrong with the Liverpool defence. They won't win the premeiership like that.

Meanwhile, Angela Merkel has four more seats.

Catastrophic-looking result for Liverpool. Awful and sad. No, they won't win the Premiership!!

Very often, catastrophic result can act as a catalyst, catapulting teams forward.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/default.stm#

It was a good performance," reasoned Robbie, a 74th minute replacement for Jermaine Jenas. "They were two sloppy goals to give away but the team showed good character and spirit to come back and nick it in the end. We are all delighted.

'Reasoned'!!

"I was talking to Michael Dawson at half-time and said usually when we go a goal down we don't come back, we either draw or lose the game. This time we came back to win and that will give the lads a lot of confidence."

Who knew the ingrained pessimism was so openly displayed?

Short of time due to having a flight to catch for international duty with the Republic of Ireland, Robbie concluded by saying the gaining of a positive result is the ideal way to head into the break from Premiership combat.

"Em, I can't talk, I've got to get to that Heathrow..."

"It is and it keeps us hovering around near the top. We have a couple of weeks break now and it is always nice when you go away to get a good win under your belts first."

- It is, is it not?

- 'Tis (that) [there].

http://www.lse.co.uk/ShowStory.asp?story=WU218176O&news_headline=witness_on_cisses_alleged_assault_on

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/sport/football.html?in_article_id=364098&in_page_id=1779

"I went up to Cisse and went to shake his hand, but pulled my hand away as a joke and put my thumb on my nose and wiggled my fingers. He didn't see the funny side and lunged towards me."

"I had a good time in Madrid, both on and off the pitch but I missed the UK weather, I missed the food, the Premiership and being around English people."

1. Chelsea
2. Charlton Athletic
3. Tottenham Hotspur
4. Wigan Athletic

What is going on?

in october

This just beggars belief.

He's Big he's Round He's Large and Fat
All in all a Useless *****
If Thierry Henry plays for Arsenal
So could I

Congratulations to Everton FC and their supporter on a tremendous achievement.

Ditto. I have warmed to Chiles - the more laid back attitude of MOTD2 works well. And Warnock was great value for money, even rendering Crooksy as surplus to requirements for the most part.

I think the linesman had a home-win on his coupon.

The Arsenal penalty thing threw me a bit; I always overlook the fact that a penalty (outside of a penalty shootout) is merely a special sort of direct free-kick. This is probably because I hit the post with a spot-kick in a five-a-side at Leasowe Leisure Centre when I was 12 and didn't go for the rebound much to my teammates' disgust. I thought I'd had my go and the opposition had to touch it next!

I suppose the best thing about that penalty was that it made them show the Ajax version, which seeemd to have been beamed in from happier times.

Warnock's Beckham witticism was good, I thought.

My wife saw Jimmy Greaves last week.

maybe piers has henry in his fantasy football team.

also: if he had done that pass successfully, would that count as a "missed penalty" in the fantasy football league? or would he get points for the assist instead?

I think it is impossible for the human brain to take in all it has to take in re offside and "interfering with play". But I think we are talking about the phantom goal.

I saw John Hurt on Charing Cross Road last Saturday.

He resolutely denied that the ball hit Terry's arm (or armpit/shoulder as it seemed to me that the ball's centre was there).

Moyes seemed to feel genuinely that Gudjohnsen was interfering with play.

Credit to Sheringham for being the first to declare the West Ham 'goal' was no such thing. And to N'Zogbia for kicking the ball out of play after a Sunderland player on the other side of the pitch went down.

It's a good thing for him (and of course ourselves) that Rafa won the CL last year, that's for sure.

No, not the ghost of Glover - some other geezer who may have had a minor role in The Full Monty. Round Soho way.

(massive xpost; this is why I've practically given up on ILx - start to surreptitiously type something, get interrupted 14 times by work colleagues).

This also explains the provenance of the assertion that teams at the the bottom don't get their fair share of decisions - they don't because it's easier for refs to side against them due to the lowly position.

It's not organised or even conscious in most cases; that's just the way it is (baby). As a result, good official in this respect isn't one who makes better decisions but one is 'fair' and fair means 'decisive', since that means they're less likely to be subjected.

But the JT handball wasn't an obvious handball, so fair result.

I'm sure that Henry-Pires penalty has been done before (since Cruyff) and disallowed for being plain wrong.

but yeah, it was clearly offside because it meant a disallowed goal woohoo! chelsea sux!!!!!

poor Schwarzer

I was glad to see the WBA penalty being retaken for encroachment. this does not happen enough.

You're right, or at least half right. If you're first to touch the ball following a penalty hitting the woodwork then it's a free kick to the opposition as in effect you've passed a free kick to yourself. You should have berated your teammates for not attacking the rebound as they are allowed to touch the ball.

Henry didn't move into the area until after Pires touched the ball.

I assume Pires touched the ball again after he fluffed the first attempt, that's the only reason I can think of for the ref giving a free kick against him.

they knocked us out.

it happens quite a lot now, the dummy. it's better than the chip. the chip really annoys me.

It's amazing how many different interpretations of the rule were given by 'pundits'. Jeff Stelling, for example sugested Henry wasn't allowed to touch the ball until it came back off the keeper or woodwork. The ball has to roll forward, roll forward one revolution or just move? I heard all three theories being used.

Football is great.

The interfering with play rule has caused problems since I was a kid. I think it's officially as clear now as it ever was (so the Chelsea goal should have stood), but it is regularly misapplied. A player interferes ONLY when he touches the ball or obstructs the view of the goalkeeper affecting his ability to save a shot. I believe the rules say nothing about blocking off defenders rushing to intercept, but the ref can mostly use the obstruction rules to cover that, and if not I don't suppose anyone could argue that such behaviour wasn't interference.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/a/arsenal/4374082.stm

They won't be winning the Carling Cup either.

They are obviously having a run of bad luck.

16/1 Fabio Capello. Fair enough I suppose.

It feels very bad for Ferguson. But does Glazer know what United's results are anyway?

Congratulations to Liverpool: they have won a game and are rocketing up the table!

Newcastle, too - at last Owen comes good with a marvellous volleyed strike.

I may have misremembered it, but never mind.

the top 9 are all from greater london and greater manchester

otherwise i still don't think they are particularly up for it.

you div.

Newcastle too looked better than I've seen them in some time. Owen's goal was amazing and his style of play allowed them to attack in a different way than before.

I was just saying it would be more interesting if you didn't know who was going to win it, especially if there were lots of different teams that could win that have never won it. If Spurs won the league, or even Charlton, that would be a nice change. Who cares how they do in Europe next season? And how exactly does Chelsea walking away with the league make England more likely to win the world cup, or the premiership more like the best league in the world?

honestly do ppl still (still!) think only money makes chelsea good, and that chelsea are freakish cheats somehow?

how exactly does Chelsea walking away with the league make England more likely to win the world cup, or the premiership more like the best league in the world?

a proven top standard of football to compete with, aspire to, achieve benefits everyone, surely.

that said, the team the year before abramovich was a good side, capable of winning

i feel the team the year before abramovich with mourinho would be strong challengers, perhaps in the same way as the team after abramovich were still not quite up to scratch under ranieri

Yeah, scrap all leagues in Britain but the Premier-"greatest league in the world"-ship. In fact scrap all teams except Chelsea if teams capable of out-performing the presumably not-rubbish teams like Arsenal and Man Utd can be dismissed as possessing "rank incompetence".

Over on the Scottish football thread, I am pissing myself laughing on a regular basis at one BBC pundit's insistence that Hearts don't deserve to be anywhere near the top of the league and that Rangers (currently fourth, 6 points behind Hibs and 10 points behind Celtic and Hearts) are still going to win.

This is the same. Admit it. Wee teams aren't necessary shit teams. And not necessarily unentertaining. And they might just be the big teams of the future.

2. if wigan were first they would deserve it entirely. a club of limited means cannily making the most of what they have is a model of competence compared to arsenal and utd! i applaud them sincerely.

3. the idea of the premiership being best in world has only recently subsided into some sort of realism - however it was at its poxy peak when united dominated and then stumbled about in europe, was my point.

4. isnt this like the 50 millionth time you've wheeled out your scrappy underdog indignance speech from braveheart for no reason

What else makes Chelsea good? They've got good players - but they pay them high wages and spent hundreds of millions to get them. They've got a good manager - but they pay him high wages, and he was attracted by the unlimited transfer budget. Without Abramovich's cash they wouldn't be in the Premiership any more, they wouldn't have any of the signings from the last two years, they wouldn't have any of the top pre-Abramovich players either (witness the exodus from West Ham when they went down), and they certainly wouldn't have Mourinho.

2. Fair enough.

3. Sorry, you've lost me

4. There was a reason, the same situation is happening in Scotland just now - for the first time in a long time the dominance of the big teams is being challenged by not one but two other fairly unlikely teams putting up a challenge and the supposed diddy teams taking points off the supposed big boys. It's exciting. I thought it was relevant in that it proves that an open league full of "rubbish" teams can still provide excitement.

Yeah, but Jamie – if you apply that line of reasoning you could just as well say that any team's success is down to money. If a club hasn't got money, it won't have players or a manager. It's usually been the richest club that's won the Premiership, but that doesn't mean it's useful to just say: "Well, they've bought success".

I thought that Hearts was an excellent example. Are they not, after all being bankrolled by a mysterious Balt?

Sniping at Chelsea for being rich isn't going to solve anything, but there is something dulling about their current pre-eminence (partially because there is an unpleasant side to them) Besides, Everton (and, to a lesser extent Blackburn) proved that they can be scrapped with (foreign fancy dans etc etc). Also, Mourinho's a fanny.

xxxposts

I think you may be confusing me with Dadaismus. I'm not being indignant, or underdoggy, or anything. I'm giving you an example. For comparison. Based on the other league I know something about. I'll be sure to track down some comparative stats from the Moldovan or Belgian leagues or something to illustrate my point in future.

(xpost, thanks Matt)

i do think arsenal and utd are incompetent right now - even if the personnel has diminished, then they havent made the best of what they have. boro shdnt be 4-1 better than today's utd, and still arent. van der sar was culpable, rio ferdinand was taking the piss, take your pick. as regards arsenal, they have a sizeable transfer fund neglected. mourinho is sorta right in how it seems arsenal is trying to inspire his players by not spending money and getting a high horse in on a free transfer instead. turns out to be a donkey

the dominance of the best team is not being challenged. ur the one bringing big teams and little teams into it. and as a qpr fan i think i can appreciate the random underdog wonder value of sport fine thanks very much. even if entertainment is the secret rule of sport, it isnt and cannot be the principle.

To some extent that's true - not necessarily the richest club, but one of the richer ones has usually won it. But some clubs succeed with very little money plus a good manager (eg Leicester under O'Neill). And United's second good team of the 90s was packed full of youth team products, while Arsenal picked up a lot of players on the cheap.

But I was trying to say that it's ridiculous to suggest that Chelsea's success is due to anything other than money.

Coming back to my original point: we're at a moment when the two dominant teams of recent years, United and (to a lesser extent) Arsenal, are both at the end of their respective eras. There's a vacuum which at the moment seemingly anyone could fill. This would be causing a lot more excitement if the vacuum was the top spot in the league - but instead it's fighting for the right to finish second, probably between ten and twenty points behind Chelsea.

It reminds me of the start of the 90s, when the two dominant teams, Liverpool and (to a lesser extent) Arsenal suddenly crumbled into crapness and there was a vacuum. Leeds suddenly won the league, from nowhere, having not even been in the top flight for most of the previous decade. Man United won for the first time in 26 years. Aston Villa, playing fantastic football, nearly won. Norwich nearly won. QPR were challengers. Blackburn (albeit bankrolled by a sugar daddy) came from obscurity and won. Newcastle, another team who seemed to be out of the top flight more often than in it, very, very nearly won it. These were exciting times. Then by the late 90s it had settled down into United dominating in the same way that Liverpool had. This time round we're skipping the vacuum and just going straight into another era of domination.

xxpost

so don't give us your shit that I brought the big teams v wee teams argument into it.

I watch sport for entertainment. I don't come away from a dull match thinking "oh, never mind, at least Celtic are still the price of 60,000 tickets and pies and raffle tickets better off and that will make us kings of the world once more". I think, "fuck that was dull". You don't make it clear what you think *is* the principle.

(xpost again)

This isn't just about money buying talent. In 1998 the Brazilian team, the sum of whose individuals were far superior on paper, were roundly beaten by a French squad that had gelled as a team and played with more heart. Still, having talent and depth helps immensely especially when you think of all the Cups and Europe.

That's not really a relevant comparison. Brazil couldn't buy up all the best players and make them Brazilian. Brazil couldn't buy anyone who was thinking of becoming French. The world cup only lasts about six or seven games, and everybody's squad is the same size, so strength in depth is far less of an issue.

I thought that Hearts was an excellent example. Are they not, after all being bankrolled by a mysterious Balt?

i dunno i don't feel hearts really apply to what i was saying. but burley was doing well with the comparative loadsamoney he had (wages-wise i guess), and i look forward to seeing if the next manager will slot in seamlessly and prove money does in fact win everything, as some feel.

everton proved nothing whatsoever besides that beattie is a complete moron. christ!

yeah course, i do too! everyone does. but surely the principle is maximum effectiveness at scoring goals and not conceding them and i dunno the rules of the game etc. otherwise u'd have that rubbish u hear about wenger suggesting u get extra points if u score more than 3 goals in a match or whatever

x-post

Man U are missing far far more than just Keane.

They really missing Heinze right now.

Teh HoBB, Brazil was worth more on paper, though, but I wasn't so much talking about depth or talent as about the intagible team spirit that leads France to win in '98 or Greece to win the Euro Championship last year.

So, presumably if Chelsea were put into the Conference next season this would be fantastic for the Conference teams, transforming the hollow entertainment of their rubbish league and giving them a standard of football to compete with and aspire to.

I was comparing them with the Boltons, Spurs and last season's Evertons of the world, rather than Chelsea, anyway.

Do you actually *like* any teams in the Premiership? You seem to be dismissive of all of them, on the grounds that they are shite, so I was wondering exactly why you think this isn't disrespectful. "Rubbish teams are rubbish", yes, they are, but writing off everyone who isn't Chelsea as rubbish seems a bit unfair.

(massive xpost)

I was thinking more of his insistence that the Carling Cup defeat by Charlton was a draw.

And no, Drogba's a thug. But Everton played with a high midfield line and were quick in to the tackle, Chelsea's distribution suffered as a result.

People say Chelsea's success is solely down to money. Maybe it is. Could Ranieri have won the Premiership with that same squad? Who can tell. I'm no great lover of Chelsea, but saying it's their fault for having the temerity to win all their games is a bit off. It's the fault of the teams that should, by their own claims, be up there challenging them for the title.

I mean, look at them! Wenger is up on his high horse about winning through finding a team, rather than buying it. Funny how that wasn't the case when he was forking out £17.5m on Jose Antonio Reyes. Why hasn't he signed a striker to complement Henry? Why didn't he do more to hang onto Patrick Viera? And when Ferguson is so overawed by Roy Keane as to trot out the lie that he's irreplacable, as if that justifies not buying any defensive midfielders at all before plonking Alan Smith there and hoping for the best. When he's keeping Cristiano Ronaldo on the bench in favour of the mighty Darren Fletcher is that Chelsea's fault? Is all very well banging on about how Chelsea are buying the title but when Rafa is forking out £7m on Peter 'no goals and counting' Crouch it all starts to ring a bit hollow. Rooney aside, the so-called top teams have just become rubbish at spending money.

Maybe I'm biased here, but when I look at Spurs sitting in third I'm thinking that there's not one out of Man Utd, Arsenal or Liverpool that couldn't do with having Robinson, Defoe, King, Carrick, even Aaron Lennon, in their squad. Whatever I say, they are much bigger fish in the pond than we are. With the possible exception of King, they could have muscled us out of the transfer market with every single one of those, and would be the better for it. So why didn't they?

A potentially intriguing turn to this season would be to see how Chelsea cope with a double whammy that takes out the (pre-Abramovich) John Terry and Frank Lampard. Preferably at the end of January, just to see what happens.

Louis Saha: Fulham to Man Utd, £12.8m
Jermain Defoe: West Ham to Spurs, £7m plus Bobby Zamora

I'd agree with most of that. But Lampard would be neither rubbish, nor at Birmingham. And there's a lot of false memory syndrome going on when people suggest that it's been nothing but United and Arsenal battling it out for the premiership for a decade - other teams have often looked like winning it, but never quite managed it (Newcastle, Liverpool, Chelsea, Leeds). And a two-horse race is arguable more interesting than a one-horse procession by the same horse every season.

People say Chelsea's success is solely down to money. Maybe it is. Could Ranieri have won the Premiership with that same squad? Who can tell. I'm no great lover of Chelsea, but saying it's their fault for having the temerity to win all their games is a bit off. It's the fault of the teams that should, by their own claims, be up there challenging them for the title.

Ranieri would have won the Premiership, but not by as much. Mourinho is a better manager, but Ranieri was good enough. He did very well to get them into Europe just before Roman turned up, when the club was basically going under. And he did well in the first Roman season (2nd was their highest placing for decades, and they got to the semis of the European Cup) despite being undermined the whole time by Sven, etc. It's a bit like the Labour party in the mid-90s: the Tories had fucked up so badly that Labour had to win. They would have won comfortably under John Smith, instead they won even more comfortably under Tony Blair.

The Premiership this season is interesting to me because of what teams like Wigan, Charlton and Bolton are doing and because of what is happening to Arsenal and Man Utd (and indeed Liverpool, and even Everton) regardless of Chelsea's dominance, which is no worse than what was happening with Man Utd ten years ago (15 points clear this time then?), so relax and enjoy the fight for the other CL spots I will happily enough.

i like matt's comment about the "irreplaceable" keane as well. he is nowhere near as good (in his current incarnation) as the likes of essien, alonso, lampard, makelele, gerrard etc - his absence only results in poor united performances because of the low quality of united's alternatives - buy proper replacements and we wouldn't struggle. lots of spurs' youngsters are great, but i almost think davids is the one i would most like to have at united at the moment.

erm, dave, hasn't an unbeaten premiership season been achieved by another team in recent memory?

True, but wasn't the gap between Arsenal, Man Utd and the rest widening by the time Abramovich turned up? Years of success had made them the teams with the real money and the power to attract the top players - even Liverpool and the old Chelsea couldn't really compete. That financial faultline was gagging to be exploited by someone sooner or later, and Abramovich did it, but it shouldn't have been allowed to open up to that extent in the first place.

But yes, I can't see anyone beating Chelsea any time soon. Arsenal always looked brittle and prone to potentially falling apart even when they were beating everything in sight. Chelsea don't.

Forgive my nerdy response:

1 Nov 05: Chelsea P10 W9 D1 L0 Pts28, 9 points clear of 2nd place
-----------------------------------
1 Nov 94: Newcastle top P12 Pts29, United 3rd 4pts behind with 3 defeats already

1 Nov 95: Newcastle top P11 Pts28, United 2nd 2pts behind with 1 defeat already

1 Nov 96: Arsenal top P11 Pts24, United 5th (behind Wimbledon!)5pts behind with 4 defeats already

1 Nov 97: United top P12 Pts25 (one defeat) 1 point clear of Arsenal

1 Nov 98: Aston Villa top P10 Pts22, United 2nd 1pt behind 1 defeat

1 Nov 99: Leeds top P13 Pts29, United 2nd 2pts behind with 2 defeats already

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/m/man_utd/4394972.stm

Yep. By the start of December that season United were 14 points clear, but they had already lost (they got beaten at Chelsea right near the start of the season). By mid-April Blackburn were level on points with United. By the time United won it at the end of the season they had lost four times and drawn eleven.

I just don't see any chance of something like that happening this season. If it does.... well, I'll tell you what I'll do, I'll eat my hat. All of it. I'll eat it right up.

Oi - we had I think the 4th or 5th best overall record in the Premiership up to 2001, thanks very much!

sublime.

Boyler is possibly the best tempter of fate I have ever encountered. I think Man Utd might now beat Chelsea.

Peter Crouch A Spurs Youth player sold to

QPR for 60,000 [Summer 2000]

after 1 season sold to

Portsmouth [Summer 2001] for 1.2 Million

April 2002 sold to Villa for 4.5 Million - 5 Million

Graham Taylor flops, enter David O'Leary

On Loan at Norwich

Then sold to Southampton for 2 Million [Summer 2004]

Summer 2005 Sold to Liverpool for 7 Million.

Where Next? A Quick Discounted January Sale 2006? for how much?

I liked the "it's not fair" look on Drogba's face when that shot hit both posts and stayed out.

Having said that, I don't know if anyone else was surprised, outside hyperbolic headline writers.

17º Betis 9 10 2 3 5 7 17

18º Alavés 8 10 1 5 4 8 14

19º Espanyol 8 10 2 2 6 6 13

20º Athletic 6 10 1 3 6 10 15

Obviously by 'a dog on the pitch', I don't mean Wendy Toms.

Perhaps a re-christening to the innocentfox would be in order?

It's funny how Wigan are so omitted from discussion today. I wanted Richard Keys to say, "And Man United close the gap on WIGAN".

Apparently Villa have the best commentary box in the Premiership, so up yours all other clubs.

Arsenal; ..lose
Spurs; ..win
Newcastle; ..lose
Liverpool; ..win
Chelsea; ..lose
Man Utd; ..win

5 points.

7 points

2 points

there, i've said it. i hope it's not true tho, cos it'll fuck up my fantasy team.

5pts from that lot...

1 point

Arsenal : Lose heavily, provoking burst bubblism
Spurs : Win
Liverpool : Win
Chelsea : Draw jammily, provoking Mourinho stand-up routine
Man Utd : Lose heavily, provoking burst bubblism

Sept points, non?

They know who they are.

I think I might decide to be a Man City fan! What do you say, British?

They're for you. Go Rooney.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/l/liverpool/4420306.stm

It looks like Liverpool will be going down the well-trodden Reebok / Emirates / Friends Provident path of sponsored-new-stadium-naming. Gah! I can't even begin to get into how shit I think this is.

Do you really think that? Where do you draw the line - if Burger King offered them £300 million a year to change their name to Burger King FC and play their games in the Bacon Double Cheeseburger Stadium would that be a good thing, because they could buy loads of players?

Would this Bacon Double Cheeseburger stadium have gherkins on it?

Attendence: More than 6,000 in the (wait for it) Pirelli Stadium.

Surely the King of Thailand would have been more fun than this Kraft.

Stuart Hall, just now

Meanwhile,

Manchester City 0-1 Liverpool!

it was not a terribly exciting game, but riise's goal was excellent.

did you hear his post-match comments? Froglish - a form of broken English spoken in mini-statements with a French accent that often made no sense.

also who was worse for tactics? Christian "Cuckoo" Gross Vs Alain "You Don't Know What Your Doing" Perrin

I like Alain Perrin. I dare say he is better off out of it.

David A. Stewart of Eurythmics predicts in today's Guardian that Pompey will beat Chelsea 4-0.

Also why has Defoe gone shit?

JINX.

Roy Keane to Everton though?

Irritating me this week: watching Wigan vs Newcastle in the League Cup, and the Sky pundits were acknowledging that Wigan were like ten places higher in the league, then saying that it would still be a shock if Newcastle's superior quality didn't win through. A shock to who? Where is this clear evidence of any current superior quality, other than individually according to international caps and the like?

"If Harry Redknapp returns to Pompey and succeeds in keeping us in the Premiership, he will be one of the greatest managers in our history. To take Pompey up, keep them up, take the Scummers down, keep them down and then return to Pompey to keep them up again... fantastic"

Hooray!

Though I hear of a Bust-Up vs Davids!

It's a marathon, not a sprint. I don't have much faith in Newcastle to do very well in said marathon, however.
-- Matt DC (runmd...), December 2nd, 2005.

!! DC's on fire!

What a farce. Redknapp must be able to literally taste the egg all over his face.

what a circus, just pay them, after all - was quashie worth 2 million last january? no other club would buy him at the price tag

"I made a monumental mistake walking out of Fratton Park and a day hasn't passed since I left the ground for the last time that I didn't regret my decision.

Jayzus! For a chirpy loveable rogue, he really has done his best to alienate everyone involved.

http://www.westhamonline.net/forum_nested.php?333963||1||

"He's not the chairman, he's Imraan the doctor," added Gascoigne. "I'm Paul Gascoigne and I take charge of this club.

"I'm a multi-millionaire and I'm angry. I've tried to buy him out already. I told him it was the fans and Paul Gascoigne against a doctor - who will win?

"I know that the supporters, the players and the staff of Kettering Town are all behind me, not him.

"Two years ago I would have given in but not now. I'm a genius and I know what's going on the football field."

Hillsborough and Heysel disasters contrived by the FA and UEFA to bring about an end to Liverpool's dominance??? I think not.

a: strawberry ripple sauce
b: lipstick
c: tomato ketchup - gazza grabbed a ketchup bottle from a hot dog stall?
d: blood

I mean, OK, I get the "papers publishing stories designed to unsettle teams around big matches" thing - that gets to me, last season, the day Celtic spectacularly failed to get past Motherwell to clinch the league, the Daily Record led with the news that Martin O'Neill would be quitting a week later to be replaced with Strachan. Now, OK, that turned out to be true, but I wonder how many of the ageing players who have had a MON-related meal ticket for the last couple of years suddenly had a "oh shit, my loyal and caring boss is buggering off and he hasn't even told me" moment, and wasn't entirely concentrating on the game.

But suggesting that Heysel and Hillsborough were planned to make Liverpool look bad, that is so entirely different that it isn't even funny.

Yup, I was 95% sure that's what you meant.

It was only in the Summer that Milan Mad_Man-rich was still saying that Zajjie and Reggie Perrin were put things right after Redknapp's exit.

OK, Arsenal will likely finish 2nd. But LFC are doing awfully well. They could well finish 3rd. They have become hard to beat, hard to score against; they are off to Japan in search of another trophy. In winning the European Cup this year, they made themselves one of 2005's great teams. Congratulations to Liverpool and their supporters!

I am not sure, though, that I should be feeling as benevolent as I do towards Liverpool, because their resurgence is another obstacle to Tottenham Hotspur finishing anywhere exciting in the table. It is hard to see us winding up higher than 5th; and probably we'll be lower than that - 7th, perhaps. But 4th at this stage is impressive by our standards.

http://www.morrissey-solo.com/news/2005/images/MozaliniS.jpg

http://football.guardian.co.uk/theknowledge/story/0,13854,1659525,00.html

(soz i can't be bothered to find a more suitable thread)

the thumbsucking is part of it

I genuinely fancy Spurs to finish ahead of one of Liverpool/Arsenal/ManYoo.

March of the Penguins!

Don't start making me all misty-eyed, Steve.

League results 87-88

19 Dec Sheffield Wednesday 1-0
26 Dec Oxford United 3-0
28 Dec Newcastle United 4-0
1 Jan Coventry City 4-0
16 Jan Arsenal 2-0
23 Jan Charlton 2-0
6 Feb West Ham 0-0
13 Feb Watford 4-1
27 Feb Portsmouth 2-0
5 Mar QPR 1-0

FA Cup
9 Jan Stoke City 0-0
12 Jan Stoke City 1-0
31 Jan Aston Villa 2-0

They let in a goal in beating Watford 4-1 on 13 Feb, and then kept another 3 clean sheets.

(I notice, BTW, that Tottenham are not among LFC's clean-sheet conquests in that run. But I will say no more, as we probably lost every game to them that season.)

We also knocked you out of the League Cup (a Gary Stevens daisycutter late on at Anfield) but you did us at Anfield in the league (McMahon - spit! - and Beardsley - yay!) and Goodison in the FA Cup (Houghton, I think). Which reminds me, whatever happened to Merseyside Cup derbies? There was loads of them in the '80s but none since '91, I think.

That was a hell of a side; it seemed highly unlikely in the spring of '88 that the Barnes/Beardsley machine would be playing second fiddle to George Graham's Arsenal within 12 months.

The Clarke goal is leg*end*ary; I remember David Lacey's headline the next day: A LITTLE LOCAL DIFFICULTY FOR THE HISTORY MEN.

That Stevens goal rings a bell, or cuts a daisy. The 2-0 at Anfield was a Barry Davies special, no? (BTW, how nice to see him on Sports Personality of the Year - I could almost have cried, watching him and the self-confessedly lachrymose Pele in the same studio.)

When I say 'special', I suppose I mean - 'commentary'.

That 0-2 defeat at WHL was Venables' first game in charge! I still remember his Italian coat, and Brian Moore hosting the highlights.
The 1-0 doesn't say so much to me.

FWIW I can't see Arsenal finishing second. For all the talk about the demise of Man Utd, it's only in Europe that they've been shit, whereas Arsenal have lost five league games already. I can definitely see Henry heading off in the summer, and I don't foresee too many trophies being paraded around Arsenal's new stadium in the near future. Liverpool and United will both finish top four. Arsenal could finish anywhere in the top six. Spurs have got a real chance to sneak into the top four.

(We should be saving all this for the blessed LFC-EFC thread! Or "Ultra-boring Crap-bunglers" as I like to call it, in Gareth's acidic phrase).

(Pete W: Yes, that rings a bell! There was certainly a disallowed equaliser late in the match).

It was Davies, surely - the match had his austerity all over it. The goal are just as I, or you, remember them. Indeed.

Surely it wasn't that afternoon, then, that BD first said 'Beardsley - oh, that's a lovely goal! That's a lovely goal!' - ?

It would have happened during Liverpool's treble season in 2000-01 if Everton hadn't managed to get twatted 3-0 by Tranmere in the 5th round.

(Is there a lovelier phrase than "silenced the Kop" in the English language?)

Um, doesn't Liverpool vs Tranmere count as a Merseyside derby?

Liverpool's form was kinda bizarre in 88-89 - only two home wins by Xmas, a dozen points or more off the title pace and behind even Harvey's fairly inglorious Everton side and Plucky Norwich into January. Then came nine straight wins and...

The sooner Portsmouth get relegated and I never have another match made unlistenable by that sodding twat with the bell the better, jesus, he is such a twat.

This thread makes me realise that I have an appalling memory for goals.

Despite a ridiculous amount of possession, we've now made pretty hard work of the bottom two teams in the league. Has Harry got his "Well, now I see the size of the task facing me?" disclaimers in yet?

Defoe still looks special though. Has Jol done enough to persuade Robbie Keane to sign a new contract, so he can drop him to the bench once again?

Dude, YOU HAVE JUST WON THE THING!

Exactly. I would say anything less than a top four finish for Liverpool would be an underachievement this season, the question is whether they can take second spot (and therefore automatic CL qualification).

That joke doesn't really work any more, does it?

Liverpool can finish second, and I think they will. What Stevem said above about a poor start is true, if you look at league positions, but they still had about three games in hand at any one time. Games in hand they had because they won the European Cup.

Could do. Rose & Crown?

I saw the last half-hour of the game, and thought we played well! The defence looked unusually good, to me; King's run for the header was classy; there was a case for the penalty, though harsh; Defoe's goal was extraordinary. We had the possession, the passing, the assurance, the movement. Perhaps I was pleasantly surprised. Today's paper said we didn't play too welll, Portsmouth matched us, etc; that's not what I saw.

Like you, DC, I hope that little Robbie has been kept sweet enough. But any contracts signed by now we would have heard of. So, will he sign one if offered, or does he want to join Everton after all?

"Jose reckons it doesn't matter that they've come second in their group but he's wrong - they might well struggle in the next round, whereas Liverpool (who finished above them) could well get an easy draw. Everyone just rolls over and dies against Chelsea - if teams had a bit more self-belief against them they would be there for the taking. Their points haul might be impressive, but their performances aren't."

The thing is, people said similar things about Chelsea last season after they got to the top with some uninspiring low-scoring wins in the autumn, but then about this time last year they hit a purple patch and started winning 4-0 every week. Everyone knows Chelsea haven't been at their best, and they've had a bit of luck, but they're still miles clear at the top, well on course to break their own record, and they're probably going to improve. I could easily see Chelsea getting knocked out in Europe (I thought they were lucky to get to the semis last year), but I would be amazed beyond belief if they didn't win the league.

Martin Jol G

they pwned their group with ease, they matched Barcelona all the way but got them on a corner, they had the better of Bayern over two legs - only losing the away tie in the dying minutes when it was wrapped up - what do you want?!

Should be in the rose & crown, if not by kick-off then by 8pm. I'll be one of the people looking at football on the TV while drinking beer.

Arsenal (h) L 2-3
Tottenham (h) L 1-2
Liverpool (a) L 0-3
Chelsea (a) L 0-1
Man Utd (a) L 0-4

Did anyone predict that? We can now stop talking about them as "this season's Everton". We can also stop talking about this season's Everton full stop, if you like. Jeez.

OK Matt, i'll have 6 points from the 6 games, quid each is it?
-- CarsmileSteve (carsmilestev...), November 7th, 2005 2:16 PM. (CarsmileSteve)

i say 8 points.
-- ken c (pykachu10...), November 7th, 2005 2:20 PM. (ken c)

4 points (beat Liverpool, draw with Utd)
-- Sociah T Azzahole (stevem7...), November 7th, 2005 2:49 PM. (blueski)

5 points.

-- Onimo (gerry.wat...), November 7th, 2005 2:50 PM. (GerryNemo)

7 points

-- aldo_cowpat (aldo.cowpa...), November 7th, 2005 3:10 PM. (aldo_cowpat

2 points

-- Teh HoBB (j__...), November 7th, 2005 3:41 PM. (the pirate king)

arsenal lose
spurs lose
liverpool lose
chelsea lose
man u lose
there, i've said it. i hope it's not true tho, cos it'll fuck up my fantasy team.

-- Pete W (petershepherdwatt...), November 7th, 2005 4:08 PM. (peterw)

We have a winner.

what do i win?

Oh dear. Alternatives to BBC text commentary, please.

Though I'm not sure it will make you much happier.

The temporary respect of your fellow sweepstakers.

2-0, Stevie G.

Does anyone know if highlights of this entertaining sounding match will be shown on tv this evening?

West Ham have had a terrible record against Everton in recent seasons. Six nils, four nils...

And five-nils, don't forget the five-nils. We always come unstuck against the Hammers in the Cup though. Frank Sr's diving header at Elland Road in 1980 was the most traumatic moment of my childhood.

Everton at the moment remind of that Gordon Lee side, actually. This is not really a good thing.

Watching Everton at Man Utd on Sunday, they looked like a team on the rise. I thought this was a home win banker. Delighted, me.

Remember the West Ha, vs Everton game about eight years back when the Hammers were two nil up and awarded a penalty? Hartson (usual penalty tacker) gives ball to Kitson to complete hat-trick despite Kitson asying "no, no". Saved pen and then two goals in the last ten minutes for a draw. Still rankles.

Today I heard on the radio that the Dubious Goals Panel had awarded Crouch that first goal against Wigan. I love that there exists such as thing as the Dubious Goals Panel.

Frank Sr's diving header at Elland Road in 1980 was the most traumatic moment of my childhood.

THE most?

That Davis / Armstrong / Tubby riff could go a long way.

I have no recollection of this actually! I remember a 2-2 from Kendall Mark III's final season; I just looked it up and you were ahead twice but no missed pen (Sinclair 2; Barmby, Madar). It was the day Gary Speed mysteriously failed to turn up for the team coach; it transpired that Kendall was trying to sell him to Dalglish at Newcastle and had told GS not to bother coming to east London because "he wouldn't be in the right frame of mind". Kendall later tells the press how shocked and disgusted he is at Speed's absence - a lie designed to make Speed's sale more palatable to the fans! Poor Howard really lost it towards the end.

96-97 - once Royle had gone, I think I'd taken to riding the train up to Carlisle on Saturday afternoons and deliberately not taking my radio with me, so sparse are my memories of the limp run-in. I remember our flattering start (2-0 vs Newcastle on the opening day and 2-0 up at half-time at Old Trafford four days later), the 7-1 vs Southampton and then the six straight defeats including conceding four in the last 15min from 1-0 up at St James's Park and Bergkamp and Viera scoring in the time it took me to board a bus and find a seat one bleak winter Sunday in Penrith.

I look at the scores from March onwards and recall absolutely nothing.

Liverpool concede one and have three of their own disallowed = balances out the weekend nicely. V v funny.

I was quite impressed by Pougatch's insistence on talking TACTICALLY!

Then: Boro 3-3 Tottenham: gosh! what a game.

No, he's made it a one-horse 'race'.
-- manner the whirled (bitternes...), September 16th, 2005 12:09 PM

The three-horse race is hotting up now, with Arsenal just 20 points behind, and second-placed United breathing right down Chelsea's neck a mere 9 points back. Chelsea are clearly feeling the pressure, and after their recent poor form are on target for a sorry tally of 103 points this season. If only the men from Stamford Bridge could afford to snap someone up in the transfer window...

Chant of the day (a la Musical Youth) "Paul Konchesky on de left hand side"

That Owen is a pain.

We Brits just can't crack the South American nut at club level.

I like Jellybean.

Ava found the theme tune hilarious, or at least my interpretation of it. Up there with the Banana Splits in her estimation.

Everton have bounced back.

Villa remain invincible.

It is a long time since I've heard anyone say "mates with".